Jump to content
You need to play a total of 50 battles to post in this section.
Gvozdika

Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW) - The Balancing Nightmares....

208 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

Players
7,002 posts
8,824 battles
1 minute ago, ABED1984 said:

Ofcourse, And that what the Submarine players should try to avoid :Smile_popcorn:. Looks like fun playing Subs I guess. :Smile_teethhappy:

Not so much for (very) overextending ship intending to use depth charges.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
1,956 posts
9,684 battles
10 hours ago, Zigiran said:

Do you classify the ASW DD as a seperate class?

Because if you treat them as a regular DD... MM will screw you over.

They'd be regular DDs. I'd add standard DCs to all DDs that actually had them, so that MM doesn't leave players stranded without defences, and otherwise its just about reasonable adaptation. You can still spec into RPF and Vigilance in normal captain skills, DD and cruiser hydro will still be effective for torp and sub detection at close range. ASW should be specialists in the same way a Kidd or Monaghan is... Still very useable in general play, and not a 'must have'. 

 

The biggest worry is not balancing, tbh, but if WG think that sub play should be all action rather than a careful setup and strike class. That would not be good. 

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[KAKE]
Players
1,704 posts
3,998 battles
9 hours ago, Sunleader said:

So if WG Sux at Balancing. Then you should Welcome Subs. Because the more Classes we got. The easier the Balancing will become :P

Chris-Rock-HUH-WTF.gif.f63aa2ac4de7bac60966736a1de51a14.gif

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
7,002 posts
8,824 battles
5 minutes ago, invicta2012 said:

They'd be regular DDs. I'd add standard DCs to all DDs that actually had them, so that MM doesn't leave players stranded without defences, and otherwise its just about reasonable adaptation. You can still spec into RPF and Vigilance in normal captain skills, DD and cruiser hydro will still be effective for torp and sub detection at close range. ASW should be specialists in the same way a Kidd or Monaghan is... Still very useable in general play, and not a 'must have'. 

 

The biggest worry is not balancing, tbh, but if WG think that sub play should be all action rather than a careful setup and strike class. That would not be good. 

Pretty much all DDs have (visually) ASW gear, only issue is overtaxing destroyers with duties requiring overextending, which may or may not send one back to port rather quickly - sub hunt, countering DDs, base capture, spotting when no CV is around.

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
1,956 posts
9,684 battles
6 minutes ago, Panocek said:

Pretty much all DDs have (visually) ASW gear, only issue is overtaxing destroyers with duties requiring overextending, which may or may not send one back to port rather quickly - sub hunt, countering DDs, base capture, spotting when no CV is around.

Yup. It has the potential to be a very distracting mini game, and in Epicentre and Domination modes it is probably a big problem as it will stop people playing the objectives. In Standard battles, though, could be interesting. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[SICK]
Weekend Tester
4,812 posts
9,883 battles
8 hours ago, Sunleader said:

Just Saying. But if WG cant Balance the Game anyways.

Then why would you Oppose Subs ^^

First of all, 404 logic not found. 

 

Secondly, let's take a look at the two current specialist classes: DDs and CVs. 

 

DDs can be hard to spot, but if they are spotted via numerous mechanics, anyone can hit them using their main guns at any range. 

 

As for planes, everyone has AA. It's harder to justify it since the rework, but you can shoot planes down, and if the CV is spotted, you can destroy it with your main guns at any range. 

 

 

Currently, there is no proximity problem. 

As long as your main guns or torpedoes can reach, you can damage any target at any range. 

 

 

But subs? 

If you don't have a specialized weapon and aren't very close to the sub, you can't damage it, period. 

 

Sub spotted underwater 5km away? 

All you have are depths charges so you can't damage it at all unless you catch up. 

 

 

 

 

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[BABBY]
Players
439 posts
8,538 battles
13 hours ago, Panocek said:

You need to get directly over them to apply ASW ordnance tho.

Don't worry comrade, mighty Kremlin will be able to shoot depth charges out of its main guns. It's right there in sekrit dokuments, da!

  • Funny 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
1,393 posts
12,202 battles

In general if submarines can hunt all classes, all classes should have terms to fight them back. 

We already know how a team that loose all their DDs ends. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[WWGU]
Players
562 posts
10,369 battles
17 hours ago, Panocek said:

cruisers as only RU ones have visible depth charge rails and racks across entire tech tree 

I could be wrong but I believe that the RU cruisers are displaying Minelaying equipment with the rails around the decks of the ships rather than depth change rails.

But I am doing this from memory as I am well away from my games pc. 

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
1,144 posts
33,651 battles
3 hours ago, Panocek said:

Not so much for (very) overextending ship intending to use depth charges.

And from there WG should balance Submarines gameplay. Like the range, speed & damage of torps ( for example ).:Smile_unsure:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
7,002 posts
8,824 battles
47 minutes ago, Cambera_1 said:

I could be wrong but I believe that the RU cruisers are displaying Minelaying equipment with the rails around the decks of the ships rather than depth change rails.

But I am doing this from memory as I am well away from my games pc. 

I'm pretty sure these are derp charges ready to be released as well rails for getting empty vodka bottles mines? off the ship

shot-19-08-20-14-18-47-0117.jpg

 

  • Cool 1
  • Funny 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[TTT]
Players
4,466 posts
7,981 battles

stupid question... how does "the average" depth charge compare to a Battleship caliber shell when it comes to explosive mass? I.e. how much would a sub that's at periscope depth (which places the conning tower a few meters below the surface at best) and gets spotted have to worry about a nearby Monty just saturating his area with 16" shells?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[WWGU]
Players
562 posts
10,369 battles
9 minutes ago, Panocek said:

I'm pretty sure these are derp charges ready to be released as well rails for getting empty vodka bottles mines? off the ship

shot-19-08-20-14-18-47-0117.jpg

 

Agree. I could remember the mine rails which some people could interpret as rails for depth charges.

 

But you are right, those could easily be the empty barrels for vodka being gathered for recycling or being refilled! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[WWGU]
Players
562 posts
10,369 battles
1 minute ago, Tyrendian89 said:

stupid question... how does "the average" depth charge compare to a Battleship caliber shell when it comes to explosive mass? I.e. how much would a sub that's at periscope depth (which places the conning tower a few meters below the surface at best) and gets spotted have to worry about a nearby Monty just saturating his area with 16" shells?

BB shells are much bigger, but probably have a smaller charge. 

They would detonate or not at a shallow depth. I'd imagine that only the conning tower would be susceptible to shell hits at periscope depth.

 

A depth charge however explodes at depth and it is the 'overpressure' or shock wave in the water that does the damage to the submarine. 

We have a similar mechanic in game with module damage from an HE hit.

'Direct explosive' damage is going to be rare on a submerged sub.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[TTT]
Players
4,466 posts
7,981 battles
1 minute ago, Cambera_1 said:

BB shells are much bigger, but probably have a smaller charge. 

They would detonate or not at a shallow depth. I'd imagine that only the conning tower would be susceptible to shell hits at periscope depth.

 

A depth charge however explodes at depth and it is the 'overpressure' or shock wave in the water that does the damage to the submarine. 

We have a similar mechanic in game with module damage from an HE hit.

'Direct explosive' damage is going to be rare on a submerged sub.

yeah that's what I was thinking - hence why I was curious about the respecitve charges, to get an idea of how much of a shockwave a BB caliber shell exploding underwater would create... with the massively tightened dispersions we get ingame, you'd probably get a couple of close misses on your average BB salvo if it's aimed right, and the sub wouldn't have the usual time window between a depth charge being dropped and actually detonating near it to dodge (again, all assuming it gets caught at periscope depth and the BB fires reasonably quickly after that).

 

Now, i do realise that I'm very much mixing "realism" and ingame mechanics here, but this is all just thought exercises at this point until we know a lot more about how WG are gonna implement things, so... might as well speculate and ponder a bit :Smile_teethhappy:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
257 posts
3,017 battles
3 minutes ago, Cambera_1 said:

BB shells are much bigger, but probably have a smaller charge. 

They would detonate or not at a shallow depth. I'd imagine that only the conning tower would be susceptible to shell hits at periscope depth.

 

A depth charge however explodes at depth and it is the 'overpressure' or shock wave in the water that does the damage to the submarine. 

We have a similar mechanic in game with module damage from an HE hit.

'Direct explosive' damage is going to be rare on a submerged sub.

From Wiki:

US WW2 Mark IX depth charge. Streamlined and equipped with fins to impart rotation, allowing it to fall in a straight trajectory with less chance of drifting off target. This depth charge contained 200 pounds (91 kg) of Torpex.

 

From navweaps(dot)com:

16 inch/50 Mark 7 Bursting Charge:

HC Mark 13 - 153.6 lbs. (69.67 kg)
HC Mark 14 - 153.6 lbs. (69.67 kg)

 

So while the Depth Charge has more explosives, it isn't all _that_ much more.

 

As for where the shell would explode, well, to use a WoWs mechanic, Inertia-Fused could be quite handy, delaying the shell from going boom until it is a dozen meters deep or so instead of going boom at 1 or 2 meters with a regular HE shell, which could make all the difference.

Totally realistic? Probably not (I honestly have no clue), but I could totally see it as a game-mechanic.

 

  • Cool 3
  • Funny 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[VETS]
Beta Tester
217 posts
15,461 battles

They cant even balance the CV tree which they cant get rid off and now they are implementing  another problem ..lol ...

  • Cool 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[CROTZ]
Beta Tester
973 posts
6,320 battles
26 minutes ago, Cambera_1 said:

Agree. I could remember the mine rails which some people could interpret as rails for depth charges.

 

But you are right, those could easily be the empty barrels for vodka being gathered for recycling or being refilled! 

Half a year ago I played a ship with lots of water bomb barels at the back in random mode, cant remember which one it was. Perhaps a DD.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[SCNG]
Weekend Tester
1,243 posts
3,590 battles
5 hours ago, Gvozdika said:

On what planet does that even make sense?

 

If a juggler is trying (and failing) to juggle 3-4 balls - he's not going to be any more successful if you hand him even more!

 

The game balance is far more nuanced than a simple X beats Y process. If anything, adding a new class requires even more balancing know-how because you've now added a whole new set of variables you simply didn't have to take into account before. 

 

 

5 hours ago, Blixies said:

The more complicated the things get, the easier they are to balance?

 

4 hours ago, Uglesett said:

Chris-Rock-HUH-WTF.gif.f63aa2ac4de7bac60966736a1de51a14.gif

 

That too much for you ? :)

Well its not Surprising.

 

 

Think of the Following.

You have 80 Differently Sized and Shaped Stones. Each of which has its own Weight.

 

Now what do you think is Harder.

 

Balance 1 Scale to be exactly even.

Or Balance 5 Scales to be tilted in one Direction :)

 

 

When you have Different Classes which are Supposed to have a Class against which they are Strong and a Class against which they are Weak.

It Greatly Reduces the Balancing needed.

 

Because if you have to Balance each Ship against each Ship. Then you got an Error Margin of like 5% for each Ship against each Ship.

But if you Divide it into Different Classes. And from the Start Say. Class A ---> Class B ----> Class C -----> Class A

Then you only need to Balance them to these 5% Margin inside their own Class.

At the same Time for Balancing them against the other Classes People dont care so much if that Ship from the Class which is supposed to Beat your Class is 120% Stronger or 130% Stronger than you. Neither do they care if the Ship that is supposed to be Weaker than them is 80% or 70% of their Power.

Meaning for the Remaining Classes your Error Margin becomes 10-15% instead of 5%

Making it far easier to Balance the Game.

 

 

World of Warships is already doing that on Giant Scale actually.

 

See Guys.

If your Playing as a DD. You will like most People Pay alot of Attention to how much Damage another DD does compared to you.

If he can Kill you much Faster than you can Kill him. Then you get Annoyed because he seems so much Stronger than you.

 

But do you Care about it if Cruiser A can Kill you 10% faster than Cruiser B ?

No not Really. Because your Dead either way. It doesnt matter so much.

Neither do you care if BB A needs 5 Torpedo Hits to Sink while BB B only needs 4.

 

 

Thats why WG is trying to make Tons of Different Classes. So they dont need to Directly Balance Ships against each other.

Thats why each Nation has some Sort of Specialty Skill. Because this Way. They can avoid a more Fine Balancing and can just Say.

Ok Shima got Great Torpedoes but is default weaker in Guns than the Daring.

Ok British Cruisers dont get HE but get Smoke. So they cant really Complain that the Japanese Cruisers got so much better Torps and so much more Firepower especially with HE. Neither can the US Cruisers with their Radar and lots of Guns Complain for not having good Torpedoes.

 

 

 

The Reason why Aircraft Carriers Failed. Was because they were Simply Strong AGAINST ALL Classes.

They were Supposed to be Weak against Cruisers due to Strong AA.

But they were not. Thats why they were Overpowered and Perceived as Extremely Unbalanced :)

 

 

4 hours ago, Exocet6951 said:

First of all, 404 logic not found. 

 

Secondly, let's take a look at the two current specialist classes: DDs and CVs. 

 

DDs can be hard to spot, but if they are spotted via numerous mechanics, anyone can hit them using their main guns at any range. 

 

As for planes, everyone has AA. It's harder to justify it since the rework, but you can shoot planes down, and if the CV is spotted, you can destroy it with your main guns at any range. 

 

 

Currently, there is no proximity problem. 

As long as your main guns or torpedoes can reach, you can damage any target at any range. 

 

 

But subs? 

If you don't have a specialized weapon and aren't very close to the sub, you can't damage it, period. 

 

Sub spotted underwater 5km away? 

All you have are depths charges so you can't damage it at all unless you catch up. 

 

 

 

 

 

1.

Actually you dont need any Specialized Weapons at all.

Submarines at Periscope Depth can be Fired upon with Normal AP Shells.

 

Submarines have little to no Armor so just like you can get Underwater Penetrations on Ships. You can actually Fire at Subs with Normal Guns to Sink them.

And with the Few HP they got they wont really take much to Sink.

 

Specialized Weapons are only Required if the Submarine is gone Completely into Dive.

But at this Point it has no way to Aim its Weapons at you either. Because its Completely Blind.

 

In case you didnt Know this.

But in Reality. Once a Submarine was Found. It was basicly Helpless. Because it could not Stay near the Surface due to Risking being Sunk by a Single Shell Fired into its Hull.

But Diving meant it would be Purely an Escape Run as the Weapons got Disabled and the Submarine was Blind.

Meaning once this happened the only thing the Submarine could do was trying to Hide and Escape.

 

As long as the Submarine is at Periscope Depth and thus Capable of accurately firing its Weapons at you. You can actually Hit it with Perfectly Normal Guns.

 

 

2.

The Importand bit is actually above.

Simple Class Balancing.

As long as DDs get Effective Weapons against Submarines. Submarines will not be Overpowered.

They will simply be an Slower DD with better Concealment.

Nothing New Really.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[WWGU]
Players
562 posts
10,369 battles
6 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

As long as DDs get Effective Weapons against Submarines. Submarines will not be Overpowered.

They will simply be an Slower DD with better Concealment.

Provided that they don't give the Submarine 30knts submerged. 

And that is the big 'if'!

 

WG will want subs to be 'fun and engaging' like carriers. Therefore they will want subs to be be a fun class and it seems that they are making a link between speed and fun.

Recent ships have been getting faster and faster... 

I don't think that WG will be able to resist this urge. 

They 'feel the need.. the need for speed' 

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[LADA]
Players
277 posts
5,662 battles
44 minutes ago, Tyrendian89 said:

stupid question... how does "the average" depth charge compare to a Battleship caliber shell when it comes to explosive mass? I.e. how much would a sub that's at periscope depth (which places the conning tower a few meters below the surface at best) and gets spotted have to worry about a nearby Monty just saturating his area with 16" shells?

Sub hunting aircraft used AP rockets that were good at punching holes in things even when just under the surface. Even a fairly 'light' cannon like the 57mm on a mosquito fighter bomber could puncture a pressure hull and make it incapable of diving. These rounds were usually just solid-shot AP 6 lb shells.

 

Hedgehog fired a small explosive charge of around 30lbs - again quite small. It would only need one of these to hit an already stressed pressure hull (being squeezed by several thousand tonnes of water) to crack the thing open. 

 

Given that the above had nothing like the sheer kinetic force of a capital ship shell it wouldn't be a great stretch to imagine a BB shell would handily cripple a sub in one hit with sheer impact force - even before the thing exploded. No WW2 sub was stupid enough to get into a gun duel with anything bigger than a sloop - so we'll never know...

 

If WG made subs such that taking any hull damage dramatically impaired their diving abilities then that would be one possible route. Like taking plane losses reduces the strike power of a CV if they are careless - a sub needs to be the most fragile 'fart near it and it'll crumple like quite paper bag' unit in the game. 

 

They want to make subs exciting to play - make the prospect of being hit by even a secondary gun properly terrifying to a sub player. 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[SCNG]
Weekend Tester
1,243 posts
3,590 battles
43 minutes ago, Cambera_1 said:

Provided that they don't give the Submarine 30knts submerged. 

And that is the big 'if'!

 

WG will want subs to be 'fun and engaging' like carriers. Therefore they will want subs to be be a fun class and it seems that they are making a link between speed and fun.

Recent ships have been getting faster and faster... 

I don't think that WG will be able to resist this urge. 

They 'feel the need.. the need for speed' 

 

Since most of them dont even have 30 Knots Surfaced thats an very small "If" Mate. lol

 

And the Need for Speed is actually also simply another "Class" They needed something to make French DDs Unique. Something that Allowed em to not be Forced to Directly Balance them against other DDs and instead make em into something that People will Forgive if things Vary somewhat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
2,590 posts
8,006 battles

Don't forget CL. They will also have anti sub capabilities. It's not all on the DD shoulders.

 

What I'm really interested in the different nation flavours. After a brief research...

 

I can see the US having the best and most amount of deck guns as well as the best armour (average everything else)

The Germans being the fastest with the most torp tubes. The XX11 was it? That could stay under the water for a long time though so that might also be one the lines strengths.

The IJN having the fastest firing torp and the hardest hitting. Not to mention planes Or mini subs?

The RN with the best hydro/consumable and concealment 

 

The Russian ones will have nuke warheads.

 

The IJN and Germans were the real leaders to be honest. The RN subs were perfect for what they needed to do (in the med sea) and the Italians dealt mostly with mini subs and the Brtiish way of thinking.

 

But out and out subs then the Germans and IJN were above the rest. American subs and designed adapted to them and produced some good classes (Gato). Quantity over quality a bit.

 

 

  • Cool 1
  • Funny 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[GURKA]
[GURKA]
Players
3,388 posts
7,921 battles
4 minutes ago, Redcap375 said:

The Germans being the fastest with the most torp tubes

But a terrible torpedo spread!

 

4 minutes ago, Redcap375 said:

The IJN having the fastest firing torp and the hardest hitting

But easy to spot at 3 km

 

4 minutes ago, Redcap375 said:

The RN with the best hydro/consumable and concealment 

Their torpedo can bounce off the torpedo belt at different angles!

 

4 minutes ago, Redcap375 said:

The Russian ones will have nuke warheads.

Legit

 

 

 

Just making fun :cap_haloween:

  • Funny 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[WWGU]
Players
562 posts
10,369 battles
4 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

But a terrible torpedo spread!

 

But easy to spot at 3 km

 

Their torpedo can bounce off the torpedo belt at different angles!

 

Legit

 

 

 

Just making fun :cap_haloween:

Not forgetting the USN, will it/won't it torpedo detonation fuses!

30% chance of every hit being a dud.

:Smile_coin:

 

(Why do you think that their guns do so much dpm?) 

:cap_rambo:

  • Funny 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×