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Co-op Battles

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Alright, I've been playing a lot of co-ops lately as I find it more relaxing, at least most of the time.

 

For the ones who play them as well I'd like to see what do you think of their current state?

 

I know this is no priority to change among so many craziness going on but still... some inputs might be useful. If not now then maybe in the future.

 

From my experience my main issue is that the co-op battles are too easy. At least when you don't have terrible players in your team that is, that die before firing a shot.

 

However, when trying to improve your game with torpedoes (playing a DD or even a CA with torps) it's quite frustrating. I'm pretty sure they designed the bots in such way that they have some kind of permanent long-range hydro. Doesn't matter which ship you're trying to torp... if it's at any distance more than a few km, they will avoid most of those torps, if not all of them.

 

When I started playing co-ops (recently) I've noticed this but i thought it's a coincidence or they are really using that hydro at the moment of torping. But after many games I'm confident that this is not the case. Doesn't matter if the ship has hydro or not, as soon as you launch the torps they start altering they course by putting the rudder in hard over position. It happens every time. Except when torps are coming from both sides, in those cases they usually don't alter the course at all because I guess the AI system of avoiding them gets bugged.

 

Have you noticed this?

 

There are obviously some other 'flaws' like using the consumables as soon as the game starts which helps you spot the ships (approximate position) as soon as they launch their spotting planes or fighters which is the moment the battle starts. Also the smoke is useless for them because they never stay hidden in it. As soon as they are spotted, they use the smoke but proceed straight ahead leaving the smoke behind them and not using it at all.

 

I would really like to see improved co-op battles and better AI. That way you would 'train' better for the Random/Ranked/whatever battles, especially with the newly obtained ships.

 

But also I'd like to remove the "permanent long-range hydro" from the bots as training with torps in co-op is quite useless. Unless you're extremely close or launch a ton of them at the same time, they will most likely avoid (almost) all of them which is quite frustrating. 

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Yes, the bots cheat. Very difficult to torpedo them, they also seem to have permanent RDF on so they know where you are at all times. On more opens maps they pretty much charge right at you. On some maps it gets a lot trickier, and even becomes perfectly possible for your team to lose the battle....  :Smile_ohmy: not that I'd personally have any first hand experience of that, just heard some.. rumors.... :Smile_hiding:

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It is not difficult to torpedo them. As long as you do not have teammates that make them turn, they tend to sail straight.

But as soon as they get a new target, they like to turn toward it.

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7 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

It is not difficult to torpedo them. As long as you do not have teammates that make them turn, they tend to sail straight.

But as soon as they get a new target, they like to turn toward it.

 

So it's mostly coincidental that they turn so quickly after you fire your torpedoes?

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I like coop for a more relaxed pewpew time, that saod i would like a option for dificulty, because it's too easy, traning room had that so idk why it cant be here too :etc_red_button:

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Bots do cheat in terms of torpedo avoidance (as soon as your torps are away they maneuver hard to avoid)  - gotta get close so you don't give them chance.  They will also often stop giving you a broadside as soon as you load AP (even before you fire!)...

 

You can use their anti torpedo programming against them though, the quickest way to get the DDs out of smoke in the current op is just to send a couple of torps straight into the smoke and they break cover almost instantly!

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37 minutes ago, Palubarac said:

However, when trying to improve your game with torpedoes (playing a DD or even a CA with torps) it's quite frustrating. I'm pretty sure they designed the bots in such way that they have some kind of permanent long-range hydro. Doesn't matter which ship you're trying to torp... if it's at any distance more than a few km, they will avoid most of those torps, if not all of them.

Yes, it's almost as if the computer knows that you have launched torpedoes, and is taking steps to avoid them, isn't it? :Smile_Default:

 

Joking aside: I know absolutely nothing about how to build an AI, or how to design so-called bot opponents in games like WoWs. But I can readily imagine how hard it must be to make those bots good enough to present a challenge, without making them into the Terminator.* Like you, I have also gotten the impression that bot captains in co-op or operations are a little too good at avoiding incoming torpedoes - but if those bots always sailed straight on and ate every single torpedo fired at them, now that wouldn't be much fun either, would it?

 

The basic problem with bots is their predictability. In co-op games and operations, you just never get that wonderful element of uncertainty that is so much of the charm of PvP games. On the upside, of course, you don't get the hate-spewing trolls or the second line torpedo launchers either - so there is that. Me, I usually only play co-op if I have to complete a certain mission that requires an utterly predictable opponent - such as getting 250 hits with my secondary batteries, for example - or if I want to train my skills with a ship that I am too unfamiliar with to take into regular random battles. And sometimes I do it when I'm too tired to function properly on the bridge, or if I'm in a Skype conversation with someone who is not in a division with me.

 

I would welcome better bots. But I still feel that the PvP setting, where we gamers get to test our mettle against each other, and have a good time together on the seven virtual seas, is where this game truly shines!

 

Cheers!

:Smile_honoring:

 

 

* And we're talking Model 101 Arnie here, not some latter-day ripoff.

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36 minutes ago, Karasu_Hidesuke said:

Yes, the bots cheat. Very difficult to torpedo them, they also seem to have permanent RDF on so they know where you are at all times. On more opens maps they pretty much charge right at you. On some maps it gets a lot trickier, and even becomes perfectly possible for your team to lose the battle....  :Smile_ohmy: not that I'd personally have any first hand experience of that, just heard some.. rumors.... :Smile_hiding:

Yeah, I can confirm that as well. I've also noticed that if I'm in smoke (never detected) their guns will be pointed exactly to me and as I move, their guns move along with me. Clear as day.

 

27 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

It is not difficult to torpedo them. As long as you do not have teammates that make them turn, they tend to sail straight.

But as soon as they get a new target, they like to turn toward it.

I'd strongly disagree with you and I'm talking from my experience, not something I've read or think based on others. Even if I'm the only ship around they start turning (hard over) as soon as I launch the torpedoes. That has absolutely nothing to do with other ships 'lurking' them to turn. I could provide replays and such but I won't bother. I'm sure a lot of other players can confirm this.

 

17 minutes ago, Major_Damage225 said:

I like coop for a more relaxed pewpew time, that saod i would like a option for dificulty, because it's too easy, traning room had that so idk why it cant be here too :etc_red_button:

The option for different difficulty would be great but I don't see it as something they would work on as it requires more time than one change to the current state which would be more difficult than it is now.

 

13 minutes ago, MyopicHedgehog said:

You can use their anti torpedo programming against them though, the quickest way to get the DDs out of smoke in the current op is just to send a couple of torps straight into the smoke and they break cover almost instantly!

Are we still talking co-ops here? Because they never stay in smoke in the first place for you to have to force them to break cover....

 

2 minutes ago, Procrastes said:

Yes, it's almost as if the computer knows that you have launched torpedoes, and is taking steps to avoid them, isn't it? :Smile_Default:

 

Joking aside: I know absolutely nothing about how to build an AI, or how to design so-called bot opponents in games like WoWs. But I can readily imagine how hard it must be to make those bots good enough to present a challenge, without making them into the Terminator.* Like you, I have also gotten the impression that bot captains in co-op or operations are a little too good at avoiding incoming torpedoes - but if those bots always sailed straight on and ate every single torpedo fired at them, now that wouldn't be much fun either, would it?

 

The basic problem with bots is their predictability. In co-op games and operations, you just never get that wonderful element of uncertainty that is so much of the charm of PvP games. On the upside, of course, you don't get the hate-spewing trolls or the second line torpedo launchers either - so there is that. Me, I usually only play co-op if I have to complete a certain mission that requires an utterly predictable opponent - such as getting 250 hits with my second batteries, for example - or if I want to train my skills with a ship that I am too unfamiliar with to take into regular random battles. And sometimes I do it when I'm too tired to function properly on the bridge, or if I'm in a Skype conversation with someone who is not in a division with me.

 

I would welcome better bots. But I still feel that the PvP setting, where we gamers get to test our mettle against each other, and have a good time together on the seven virtual seas, is where this game truly shines!

 

Cheers!

:Smile_honoring:

 

 

* And we're talking Model 101 Arnie here, not some latter-day ripoff.

Building such AI is not easy I'd imagine (also have no idea about it) but tweaking it a bit wouldn't be much harder I guess. It hasn't changed in a long time I believe. Bots sailing in a straight direction would be even more annoying and no fun at all. But sailing in a straight direction and then turning exactly when you launch your torps so that none hits them is frustrating as well.

 

For example, I've noticed that CVs (bots) have been built quite differently in regards of turning and AI. The CVs will always turn hard over to one side and then at some point (always the same 'point') they will turn hard over to the other side and the loop will continue until they sink. Speaking of bot CVs... they suck badly. But it's the introduction of them into co-op so I won't complain too much about it. I just hope they will improve it. At the moment, only torp planes work and even those are very predictable. But at least they launch them. The rest just hovers over you until all of them land on the water, nose down. Since they were tested beforehand, I find it strange but maybe something bugged out on the way to the live server.

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5 minutes ago, Palubarac said:

Are we still talking co-ops here? Because they never stay in smoke in the first place for you to have to force them to break cover....

Scenarios for that one mate.  Sorry, should have been more clear.

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2 minutes ago, MyopicHedgehog said:

Scenarios for that one mate.  Sorry, should have been more clear.

I rarely play scenarios so I cannot comment on that.

 

But based on what you wrote, in scenarios the bots stay in smoke? If that's the case then it would be even easier to 'fix' that in co-op battles.

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Just now, Palubarac said:

I rarely play scenarios so I cannot comment on that.

 

But based on what you wrote, in scenarios the bots stay in smoke? If that's the case then it would be even easier to 'fix' that in co-op battles.

Bot AI in ops is slightly different to co-op (wrt smoke) but they still torp detect on launch!

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12 minutes ago, Palubarac said:

I'd strongly disagree with you and I'm talking from my experience, not something I've read or think based on others. Even if I'm the only ship around they start turning (hard over) as soon as I launch the torpedoes. That has absolutely nothing to do with other ships 'lurking' them to turn. I could provide replays and such but I won't bother. I'm sure a lot of other players can confirm this.

And there are a lot of players who think that WG is rigging the game especially against them...

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7 minutes ago, MyopicHedgehog said:

Bot AI in ops is slightly different to co-op (wrt smoke) but they still torp detect on launch!

I see. Well, as I said... then at least that thing can be fixed easily in co-op. Having ships stay in smoke instead of pushing right through it would make co-ops a bit more fun to play.

 

2 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

And there are a lot of players who think that WG is rigging the game especially against them...

That just doesn't make sense. Which probably implies that you think the 'issue' I'm talking about doesn't make sense either. Maybe you could try it and come back with an (updated) opinion? Because it's not something I think or suspect, it's something that is happening all the time, with every ship, under any circumstances. I can torp them only if I'm so close that they don't have time to turn or I launch them from both sides and then 1-2 end up in their hull.

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3 minutes ago, Palubarac said:

That just doesn't make sense.

And now you know why it does not mean much when many people share an opinion...

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If there was no 'rng' bots would kill most players here very fast, they can coordinate, never miss and dodge since they have no limitations they are part of the program, but... in order to keep it easy WG has limited them imo. Btw I want more bots in co op.

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10 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

And there are a lot of players who think that WG is rigging the game especially against them...

 

Pretty sure that Mr Conway stated that they allow bots to "cheat" to give them a chance vs humans.  Can't remember if it was on stream or on forum though.

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8 minutes ago, MyopicHedgehog said:

 

Pretty sure that Mr Conway stated that they allow bots to "cheat" to give them a chance vs humans.  Can't remember if it was on stream or on forum though.

The CV know the area where you, are as they are not programmed to take caps and need a way to win on points, if you do not show up.

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What i seen is, bots usually dont avoid torps when they are not targeted.  Usually dont avoid torps launched from smoke. i think the best way is to " de-select " them right before you launch your fish.

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1 hour ago, Palubarac said:

 

For the ones who play them as well I'd like to see what do you think of their current state?

 

Doesn't matter which ship you're trying to torp... if it's at any distance more than a few km, they will avoid most of those torps, if not all of them.

 

You might want to launch at point blank range.

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Since this is a coop thread, one thing i would love to see implemented. 

Add more bots preferably in a 2v1 ratio, so 6v12 bots :Smile_Default:

(cuzz muh huggable torpeatable bots) 

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If they add more bots they would have to decrease the credits/exp gain because they don't want you to be able to obtain in co-ops anywhere near Randoms or Ranked. Which is completely understandable. 

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2 hours ago, Palubarac said:

Alright, I've been playing a lot of co-ops lately as I find it more relaxing, at least most of the time.

Yes, Co-op it's very relaxing way to play the game :cap_like:.

Good for many things, as...

having fun, brawl in it's purest form, testing new ships, levelling out stock ships, it's an alternative to burnt out players or players close to burn out, waiting for the cv thing blows over to oblivion

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For the ones who play them as well I'd like to see what do you think of their current state?

It got better, before was only 5 vs 5, the only way to do well was rushing the reds, the first to get there was the luckiest of human players, if you survived, that is...and if you chose the right flank, often you could chose a flank and be in the middle of a desert.

Now the teams are 8 vs 8 a lot more meat around the bones (but it could me a little more than 8 ships, 8 vs 9 or 8 vs 10)

Quote

 

I know this is no priority to change among so many craziness going on but still... some inputs might be useful. If not now then maybe in the future.

 

From my experience my main issue is that the co-op battles are too easy. At least when you don't have terrible players in your team that is, that die before firing a shot.

No, there aren't. Co-op strategy and nature are very different from random or any other mode.

eat all, leave non for your team, that are your most closed adversaries. Not the bots. I learned that in there.

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However, when trying to improve your game with torpedoes (playing a DD or even a CA with torps) it's quite frustrating. I'm pretty sure they designed the bots in such way that they have some kind of permanent long-range hydro. Doesn't matter which ship you're trying to torp... if it's at any distance more than a few km, they will avoid most of those torps, if not all of them.

I don't know about that.

My best DDs are Nurnberg, York, and Hipper and they are awesome, yesterday while DDing with Hipper... ( my first time ever in Greece map)

20190815_114104_PGSC108-Hipper_51_Greece.wowsreplay

I can't do the same with a dd, I'm simply too awkward with them. 

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When I started playing co-ops (recently) I've noticed this but i thought it's a coincidence or they are really using that hydro at the moment of torping. But after many games I'm confident that this is not the case. Doesn't matter if the ship has hydro or not, as soon as you launch the torps they start altering they course by putting the rudder in hard over position. It happens every time. Except when torps are coming from both sides, in those cases they usually don't alter the course at all because I guess the AI system of avoiding them gets bugged.

 

Have you noticed this?

 

There are obviously some other 'flaws' like using the consumables as soon as the game starts which helps you spot the ships (approximate position) as soon as they launch their spotting planes or fighters which is the moment the battle starts. Also the smoke is useless for them because they never stay hidden in it. As soon as they are spotted, they use the smoke but proceed straight ahead leaving the smoke behind them and not using it at all.

that actually good.

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I would really like to see improved co-op battles and better AI. That way you would 'train' better for the Random/Ranked/whatever battles, especially with the newly obtained ships.

ABSOLUTELY NOT. (with CAPITAL letters)

If you think that way, go play Ultimate frontier and see in horror what you're asking.

 

Quote

 

But also I'd like to remove the "permanent long-range hydro" from the bots as training with torps in co-op is quite useless. Unless you're extremely close or launch a ton of them at the same time, they will most likely avoid (almost) all of them which is quite frustrating. 

.

 

 

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The only criticism I have is having top tier DDs and bottom tier BBs. Co-op is an all-you-can-eat buffet for destroyers; battleship players have to clean up the scraps.

 

I have really enjoyed the very, very rare battles when it's just Battleships and Cruisers in the roster, and those that are only Destroyers and Cruisers. Domination battles (particularly those with 4 caps, 2 vacant) are more preferable to Standard and regular 3 cap domination. Updated Epicentre is fine. CVs are great for feeding XP (they're so ineffective right now).

 

Bringing back the achievement for 4 kills and making that permanent would be terrific.

 

The NA forum has an entire section dedicated to PVE, just to note...

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2 hours ago, Palubarac said:

If they add more bots they would have to decrease the credits/exp gain because they don't want you to be able to obtain in co-ops anywhere near Randoms or Ranked. Which is completely understandable. 

Add a +10% on it and done, it's not gonna get anywhere near other modes as is, coop is for derping around relaxing, but its over too fast thats why a few more targets to shoot at would be great :Smile_smile:

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