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Speculated Sub Gameplay?

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As we already have dozens of pages relating to the big news of the planned introduction of subs. Pitchforks have been raised and the bonfires made ready.

However. Rather than shout and yell and cry 'lynch 'em high' I thought maybe there should be a topic to purely discuss Speculated sub gameplay.

This is not for the politics of said craft, go elsewhere for that. It's for discussion on views of how subs will work within the game as we know it.

:cap_like:

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Well remember the past haloween event? It would make sence to have it like that, possibly with some special dds/cruisers also apliccable to that and new map/s with added depth layers

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So I'll start off by stating I did not play the event with subs. It was obvious WG were testing the ability to introduce subs but in a separate mode initially.

By my understanding they were slow and had limited underwater endurance.

 

So what do we know about historical WW2 subs and how will WG take historical values and apply the 'arcade' factor to make it fun and engaging for everyone?

 

They are slow underwater.

They are relatively slow on the surface. 

Periscopes were relatively easy to spot in daytime and especially so by radar. 

Underwater duration was far longer than illustrated by the previous game mode.

Torpedoes.  Vast amounts of types,  patterns and torpedo data computing to play with.

Survivability after detection. Historically highly delectable. 

Spotting range?

Sonar?

ASW?

Torpedo reload times?

Advent of Schnorkel devices?

 

To my eyes there's a goldmine of new content and interesting techtrees. 

I'm still absolutely intrigued as to how they will play.

My spidey senses tell me that on surface they will have a US BB standard speed so getting around the map will be on the surface.

Detection will be lower or comparable to DD's. 

Diving will take a specific time but 'crash dive' would make an interesting consumable. 

Periscope depth would yield a below DD detection range.

So given you have surface cruised to your intended ambush area undetected. Then dived to Periscope depth what next?

Surely your spotting range would be very limited so you rely on teammates. 

So similar to any gunsight the Periscope view is going to give standard range and torpedo prediction.  However torpedo delivery is sub par compared to DD's.  4 tubes. 6 tubes. How long a reload?

I will be intrigued to see if WG introduce the fire and forget pattern running Torpedoes and acoustic homing torps. 

So so far my best guess is an ambush predator with an arcade reload capability. Prone to set up ambush points or area denial at choke points and known transitional areas.

How will surface ships be able to detect,  evade and counter?

My best guess is by up and close spotting. Radar and hydro and plane spotting. I'm sure there would be a dive function enabling subs to descend to max depth to flee from spotting. 

And this entails the spectrum of ASW capability tier dependant. 

However. Whilst depth charging a detected sub sounds awsome.... maybe not so if it's in a contested cap and your DD is also spotted. So this gives subs an element of survival in that the very ship trying to kill it is trying to survive!

 

How subs fit into the 'rock paper scissors ' is indeed intriguing and I'm keen to see how WG go about it.

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Just wait for Gamescon 2019... That will be crown jewell - presenting u-boats to German player base. 

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Forget anything you know about Real life subs.

 

WG couldn't careless about all that as it's an arcade game.  We currently have 100 mm HE that can pen 32 mm of armour, so yeah..:cap_tea:

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37 minutes ago, Redcap375 said:

We currently have 100 mm HE that can pen 32 mm of armour, so yeah..:cap_tea:

Well in all honesty that is among least of the issues in realism departement as there are several kinds/designs of High Explosive AP rounds both using shaped charges and secondary penetrators, and mind you they still have contact triggers and will explode with more or less of a "splash" effect upon impact and can start fires on surface and non penetrating hits so they are HE/HEI rounds as such, another thing entierly is how realistic is that IJN DD of late 40-s would have them though I grant you that

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1 hour ago, Yedwy said:

Well in all honesty that is among least of the issues in realism departement as there are several kinds/designs of High Explosive AP rounds both using shaped charges and secondary penetrators, and mind you they still have contact triggers and will explode with more or less of a "splash" effect upon impact and can start fires on surface and non penetrating hits so they are HE/HEI rounds as such, another thing entierly is how realistic is that IJN DD of late 40-s would have them though I grant you that

 

On a Mid WW2 IJN DD with 100mm guns? Completely out of realism.

 

No 100mm gun (still makes me laugh) should even be allowed to pen 32 mm of deck armour with HE. Period.  What a crock of a gimmick.

 

It's like putting APDSFS rounds through a 1939 2-pounder gun, didn't happen.  And that' taking about an out and out AP rounds, never mind HE rounds like the 100m HE. Even if they did, the 2 pounder STILL wouldn't have been enough to pen the big tanks. 

 

So...

 

WG can do what they want as i personally wouldn't be surprised with anything they come up with regarding subs. 


The next step will be modern ships.

 

 

 

 

 

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24 minutes ago, Redcap375 said:

 

On a Mid WW2 IJN DD with 100mm guns? Completely out of realism.

 

No 100mm gun (still makes me laugh) should even be allowed to pen 32 mm of deck armour with HE. Period.  What a crock of a gimmick.

 

 

I mean, 100mm guns are still pretty damn enormous when you think about it, and it's still almost an entire kilo of explosives going off on a (all thing considered) small amount of armor.


I'm not going to play armchair physicist.....but I wouldn't want to be inside a 32mm armored box when a 13kg shell with 1kg of explosives slams into it.

If anything, it's most other guns which downplay the effectiveness of HE on armor plating.

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It could go one of two ways.

 

Either the subs will be totally unrealistic, zipping around the map at nonsensical speeds, performing ridiculous feats and causing havoc to any class that is not a sub or...

They will be realistic and will be instantly wiped out in the opening minutes of the game by the first squadron of ASW aircraft or, if there are no CVs in the match, will spend ages getting into position only to die faster than my hopes for a competent WG design team as soon as they are in range of the enemy.

 

Either way it ain't gonna be what people think they want.

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Well maybe this can make the game even more 'blank' when they make radar only to detect surface ships and hydro detects subs and torps.

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12 minutes ago, Exocet6951 said:

i mean, 100mm guns are still pretty damn enormous when you think about it, and it's still almost an entire kilo of explosives going off on a (all thing considered) small amount of armor.

 

Twice a big as a 2-pounder anti tank (50mm) so yeah, but also no when you put that said gun on a ship. Looks mighty small when compared to 130 mm. 

 

But we are taking about HE rounds, not AP anyway.  Rounds designed to explode on impact?  Even if they were SUPERCHARGED, even a supercharged HE round from a 100mm gun STILL woun't be able to pen 32mm of armour. 

 

The Akaizui only used nose-fused high-explosive ammunition thought out its service. 

 

12 minutes ago, Exocet6951 said:

I'm not going to play armchair physicist.....but I wouldn't want to be inside a 32mm armored box when a 13kg shell with 1kg of explosives slams into it.

If anything, it's most other guns which downplay the effectiveness of HE on armor plating.

 

100mm HE should never never be allowed to pen 32 mm of armour.  

 

Yet WG had made that it so it does.  A massive crock. Not only that but decided to put it on IJN ships with the lowest gun callaber calibre.

 

 At least give it to the poor Russian ships and say that it was Starlin himself who had written down these imaginary strongest HE shells-on-earth details on the back of a cigarette packet whilst he was executing most of his officer corps.

 

:Smile_facepalm: it begs believe. 

 

So...it's an arcade game so that's why i don't give a stuff about any of it. Subs that fly? Wouldn't bat an eyelid. 

 

 

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My guess will be they will take a lot of the basic principles from the Halloween mission and refine them;

 

1. Higher speed but greater concealment on the surface, although still way more cencelment than a DD has. possibly with secondary fire from the deck gun (im assuming no HMS M1 with 12 inch gun). On the surface I'm guessing very vulnerable to shell fire and rocket attack planes.

 

2. Slow speed with increadble conceliment when submerged probably limited by some sort of timer whether that limit is shown as air time or battery life is really academic. Then it's down to setting depth, probably periscope depth or surface for torps deep diving maybe sub on sub torping. Although that raises a question will subs be able to hunt each other?

 

3. Torp balancing will be the interesting part most WW1 and WW2 subs didn't have a lot of torpedo tubes so either the torps will be low damage with fast reload or more likely very hard hitting but slow reload.

 

What I will be curious to see is how surface ships will interact with subs, for most of the time period covered by the game ships had to get over the sub and drop depth charges over the target, it was only later in the war he Hedgehog and Squid were invented which could fire forward. I'm willing to bet depth charges are going to be like AA and automatic so very little player input other than having some sort of representation of the sub outline below the water, as the surface ship has to try and sail as close as possible to get a kill while throwing depth charges over the side.

 

Now will all ASW ships get hydro or a new version specific to sub hunting like ASDAC as a consumable, and will spotter planes get depth charges so we can recreate HMS Warspite sinking U 64, only time will tell. 

 

 

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As the Halloween event proved - Submarines, as much as I liked them, will cause absolute havoc on any ship without the means to detect them such as Radar, Hydro, Planes etc. Unless the Subs are kept to Scenarios then, if they hit the Live PvP Server using the same mechanics as the Halloween event (but tweaked), you'll see a poop-storm which makes the CV-rework look like childs play.

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6 hours ago, xxNihilanxx said:

It could go one of two ways.

 

Either the subs will be totally unrealistic, zipping around the map at nonsensical speeds, performing ridiculous feats and causing havoc to any class that is not a sub or...

They will be realistic and will be instantly wiped out in the opening minutes of the game by the first squadron of ASW aircraft or, if there are no CVs in the match, will spend ages getting into position only to die faster than my hopes for a competent WG design team as soon as they are in range of the enemy.

 

Either way it ain't gonna be what people think they want.

This

 

Either ridiculous or boring and the zone between is so small that it will be missed entirely or only please a small number of the playerbase.

A sub on the surface will be a sitting duck and submerged it will be OP.

 

If they do as some has sugested that the subs will spawn way infront of the rest, then I fear that this will happen:

 

Game starts.

DDs and CV set out to hunt subs.

Everyone else sits at spawn waiting for the DDs and CVs to clear out the subs before starting to move.

Team that wins the "Subs vs. DDs"-battle will now delete the other team.

 

A sub is dependent on stealth. Not just "not being seen" but "no one knows I'm here". As soon as it is known that there are subs in a match, they have a disadvantage and are going to be hunted. Especially after a while when these spawning points are known by everybody. 

 

Armor?

A sub doesn't have any armor. One hit from a 20 mm could be enough to cripple a sub so that it can't dive. Not to mention a 100+ mm shell.

 

Speed?

Subs were slow and if they are going to follow the template of the game then that will mean slower than everything else. (The first nuclear sub, USS Nautilus was launched in 1954 and did 23 kts.) How will they "work the map"? Will they just sit in one area of the map and hope that some enemy stumbles in? They can't hunt anything with that speed so what are they gonna do?

 

Countermeasures?

Ok, DDs have depthcarges but most cruisers and very few BBs have any. What are they gonna do against subs? On the surface, guns, OK but how will BB-secondaries fair against something as small as a sub when they sometimes struggle to hit a DD that is bigger?

 

How will torps work against subs?

 

How will subs work against subs?

 

How will the spotting of subs work? Surface = low due to size. Periscope depth = even lower. Deeper = can't be seen at all.(?)

 

What will the subs spotting range be? How far can they see at periscope depth? How far when fully submerged?

 

WG nerfed stealth-fire and smoke-firing. Fine by me, no one should be able to "perma-hide" IMHO. But now they're gonna put in a class that lives by it's stealth. How's that gonna work out? Subs are mega-stealth but no one else can be?

 

Team setup: Most fleets during this timeperiod had about 50% DDs in them for screening and ASW. How will 2 DDs/team work out? (That's about 16%.)

 

How's the DD gonna hunt subs while being under fire from enemy ships, spotted by the sub and, pehaps, enemy planes overhead? And cap, and scout and fight enemy DDs. Playing DDs is gonna be like this:

ludi-performans.gif.f8c2f4994c6aa009f92e3d49175bf7cf.gif

And the balancing act to make it fit into the game will be much the same I'd imagine.

 

I'm sorry if this looks like a mess, but I'm just writing it down as it comes to me. But these are some of the questions I would like to hear WG answer. Not speculations from the playerbase, but straight from the horses mouth.

 

When I look at it I can't get it to add up within the parameters of the game so I would very much hear WG explain. I'm going shopping tomorrow and I'm gonna buy extra popcorn as I have a feeling that it's gonna be needed.

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2 hours ago, Redcap375 said:

Twice a big as a 2-pounder anti tank (50mm) so yeah, but also no when you put that said gun on a ship. Looks mighty small when compared to 130 mm. 

 

But we are taking about HE rounds, not AP anyway.  Rounds designed to explode on impact?  Even if they were SUPERCHARGED, even a supercharged HE round from a 100mm gun STILL woun't be able to pen 32mm of armour. 

 

 

I know this is in a game, but since you brought up realism, just keep in mind that thinly armored tanks (20-40mm of armor) would be taken out of action by 75mm light howitzers.
We're losing a bit of scale here because of how large the ships are, but 100mm guns are still very, very big guns in their own rights.


Amongst the things that are unrealistic in this game, having 100-130mm guns penning 25-32mm plating with HE rounds is really not one of them.

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9 minutes ago, Exocet6951 said:

 

 

I know this is in a game, but since you brought up realism, just keep in mind that thinly armored tanks (20-40mm of armor) would be taken out of action by 75mm light howitzers.
We're losing a bit of scale here because of how large the ships are, but 100mm guns are still very, very big guns in their own rights.

 

They are big guns, but not when navel guns and 32 mm of deck armour is concerned and HE shells from a distance of km's, 100mm are pea shooters in comparison. Its all about context and this is WOWS, not WOT. Ships are not tanks and are scaled differently, 100mm in the world of navy guns, was small. 

 

The Russians even made anti tank gun (portable) out of a 100mm? So big but not that big. 

 

Quote

Amongst the things that are unrealistic in this game, having 100-130mm guns penning 25-32mm plating with HE rounds is really not one of them.

 

no no, not 25-32 ect, penning Battlehsip 32mm armour is the unrealistic fact here. Might not be the biggest one this game has seen, But its STILL is one of them. :cap_tea:

 

So it's not really, it IS really my friend. 

 

 

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14 hours ago, iFax said:

They gonna put this on HMS Daring and other RN ships so equipped?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squid_(weapon)

Definitely. The subs Test mode should be based around North Atlantic convoys and surface ships of approx 15-20 knots: rather like the Halloween and Rogue Wave event there should be three Tiers of Defending surface ship, something like Black Swan (short range Asdic and depth charges only),  River class (slower, but with better Asdic, DCs and Hedgehog), then the Loch or Bay classes (DCS and Squid). There could later be a series of faster A/S destroyers (Wickes, Hunt). 

 

Subs would follow the same pattern: three choices, with progressively better weapon range, speed and submerged endurance. 

 

They need to get the surface/sub interaction sorted within a limited game mode before they let them anywhere near randoms, really... 

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When subs are first released....

 

 

 

when subs are nerfed 6 months later...

 

 

chonkeh slow and easy to hit!

 

balans!

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Question is really which ones will be the more OP, the German or the USN ones, seeing how marvellous the CV rework went, what could possibly go wrong, Maybe the RN line could get the additional help of some random RAF Sunderland flying boats, now that would be cool, nearly as cool as if they introduced the Rodney with a spotter plane.

 

 

I won't be holding my breath:Smile_teethhappy:

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