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El2aZeR

Comparison RTS vs reworked CVs

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To give us a picture on how the two iterations stack up against each other I performed a small experiment. Been wanting to do this for a while but I only recently managed to enable the training room on my CN client without :etc_swear:ing up everything.

 

Parameters are as follows:

Map: Islands (smallest map in the game)

Targets: 3x stock North Carolina

CV used: Enterprise

CV movement: None

Launch order RTS: Standard (TBs, fighters, DBs)

Launch order rework: Standard (RFs, then adapt to situation aka only TBs in this case)

Drop distance (both): as close as possible

Attack priority RTS: separate targets for both TBs and DBs

 

RTS

First strike: 1 min 42 seconds

First kill: 2 mins 31 seconds (flooding)

2nd kill: 4 mins 11 seconds (alpha strike)

3rd kill and total duration: 6 mins 39 seconds

Spoiler

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wJG6v24.png

 

Rework

First strike: 41 seconds

First kill: 2 mins 19 seconds (alpha strike)

2nd kill: 3 mins 52 seconds (alpha strike)

3rd kill and total duration: 5 mins 36 seconds (alpha strike)

Spoiler

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6wE3dMT.png

 

As you can see, this would suggest that initially reworked CVs are only slightly ahead of RTS ones, but the longer the match goes on the more the former starts to outclass the latter in damage output. You should however note that the range at which this experiment is performed at would be an untenable combat distance for both CV iterations and higher range inevitably favors reworked CVs due to their faster plane speeds.

Now this may very well only apply to the Enterprise. I haven't bothered yet to unlock the other high tier CVs on the CN client. It's entirely possible that the Shokaku e.g. is weaker than before, but on the other hand Lexington is likely stronger. Besides CVs have always been judged by their most powerful representatives, no one gave a :etc_swear: about bad CVs like e.g. the Ranger in the RTS iteration so I see no reason why weak reworked CVs should be taken into consideration either.

 

This experiment also only shows raw damage output. There is no AA, maneuvering nor fighter interference which you would normally find in a match. E.g. against a NC a reworked Enterprise will only be able to get off 2 attacks with her TBs, but likewise RTS Enterprise will not be able to retain full striking power either, likely losing a squad when going in. Considering that such mechanics are much more in favor of the CV in the rework than in the RTS iteration (AA = much weaker, strike plane reserves = higher, accuracy = higher, fighters = basically non-existent) we can be practically assured that reworked CVs will trump their RTS counterparts in this regard.

The only thing that RTS CVs were better in was setting DoT, but that's only because flooding got nerfed, not because of CV capabilities themselves. If flooding had been nerfed during the RTS iteration their time to kill in the experiment above would've been way slower.

 

So yeah, whenever you see someone claim "reWoRkEd CVs aRe mUcH wEaKeR nOw", call bull:etc_swear: on it.

 

Small footnote: I don't have AS on my CN Enterprise yet, but those only affect DBs which given the inability of RTS USN AP bombs to citadel NCs would've made no difference aside from maybe changing the damage distribution between TBs and DBs a little.

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They will just never admit that the rework is cancer and they wasted a hell of a lot of time and money only to ruin everything else in the game.

 

They will just keep trying to change absolutely everything else about the game in the name of balance...

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All I know is that I don't have to check which team got the unicum cv and which got the potato cv, because it usually won't matter as much as before. Unicum cv will provide a good advantage to his team, but the game is not decided at start. That's the main accomplishment by WG in this rework.

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Yes a good thing about rework as stated above is that if I am in CV against unicum there is still a possibility to actually do something.

It happened to me twice in RTS times that I was against xXx_Blogis_xXx and only thing I could do is to admire the views. Now is better.

Strangely enough they do feel weaker than old ones, but I was not good with them then or now.

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17 minutes ago, loppantorkel said:

All I know is that I don't have to check which team got the unicum cv and which got the potato cv, because it usually won't matter as much as before.

 

:Smile_facepalm:

Are people really this resistant to facts? Really, why do I even bother?

 

Hint:

A game that can't be carried in a reworked CV can certainly not be carried in a RTS CV either.

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2 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

:Smile_facepalm:

Are people really this resistant to facts? Really, why do I even bother?

 

Hint:

A game that can't be carried in a reworked CV can certainly not be carried in a RTS CV either.

What facts? You've done some testing of Enterprise in training room from what I see. I get that you can decide the games you're in, but I've yet to meet you in battle. So far in my experience, the decisiveness of cvs have been reduced post rework.

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29 minutes ago, loppantorkel said:

All I know is that I don't have to check which team got the unicum cv and which got the potato cv, because it usually won't matter as much as before. Unicum cv will provide a good advantage to his team, but the game is not decided at start. That's the main accomplishment by WG in this rework.

A good advantage can be deciding, usually the team wit the worst cv losses, so nothin really changed on higher tiers. I agree with all the rest

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18 hours ago, loppantorkel said:

So far in my experience, the decisiveness of cvs have been reduced post rework.

 

Ofc it has. The number of actually skilled CV players have been culled down from a couple hundred to maybe two dozen, if even that.

Aka most CVs you meet are *EDIT* (let's avoid generalisations) - Teob

 

Numbers are freely available. Just compare the leaderboards on maplesyrup. With the rework utterly mediocre players are in the top 100 en masse which is unprecedented.

 

19 hours ago, Sir_Grzegorz said:

Yes a good thing about rework as stated above is that if I am in CV against unicum there is still a possibility to actually do something.

It happened to me twice in RTS times that I was against xXx_Blogis_xXx and only thing I could do is to admire the views. Now is better.

Strangely enough they do feel weaker than old ones, but I was not good with them then or now.

 

You do realize that this is a general CV buff, right? A unicum CV now doesn't need to bother shutting you down either. It represents an improvement to the situation only in the most selfish sense while every other ship class has to suffer for it. To say that this isn't ideal would be an understatement.

Besides, if the goal was to actually narrow down the skill gap then I'm sorry, but the results of bad players has actually worsened with the rework according to available statistics.

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18 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Ofc it has. The number of actually skilled CV players have been culled down from a couple hundred to maybe two dozen, if even that.

Aka most CVs you meet are *EDIT* (let's avoid generalisations) - Teob

 

Numbers are freely available. Just compare the leaderboards on maplesyrup. With the rework utterly mediocre players are in the top 100 en masse which is unprecedented.

 

 

You do realize that this is a general CV buff, right? A unicum CV now doesn't need to bother shutting down either. It represents an improvement to the situation only in the most selfish aspect while every other ship class has to suffer for it. To say that this isn't ideal would be an understatement.

Besides, if the goal was to actually narrow down the skill gap then I'm sorry, but the results of bad players has actually worsened with the rework.

So, in the end you're playing an even more OP class than before and I, playing the other classes, somehow is under somekind of delusion, feeling and believing that the cv situation is better now after the rework...? Quite an impressive feat by WG in that case.. :cap_hmm: So, what's the issue again?

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3 minutes ago, loppantorkel said:

Quite an impressive feat by WG in that case.. :cap_hmm: So, what's the issue again?

 

People spouting that CVs are weaker than before (or deal less damage, have less match influence, etc.) when in reality their playerbase is just more :etc_swear:ed now.

 

Btw if you want to know how it feels like to play against me, you could just ask @RDYSET or @xxNihilanxx. They have a bit of experience in that.:Smile_trollface:

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16 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

People spouting that CVs are weaker than before (or deal less damage, have less match influence, etc.) when in reality their playerbase is just more :etc_swear:ed now.

 

Btw if you want to know how it feels like to play against me, you could just ask @RDYSET or @xxNihilanxx. They have a bit of experience in that.:Smile_trollface:

Yea, I'll refrain from that, but I feel the cv situation has improved post rework, regardless of why.

 

Nah, I get the idea. Another Enterprise kind of mishandled my Atlanta the other day - those bombs hurt - but he opted for an easier target after a few strikes. Very rarely I feel there's no decent counterplays vs cvs nowadays, but it may be due to worse cv players. Still doesn't detract from the experience of an improved situation. No more Midways or Hakus crapping all over your team because your own cv is a 25% player.

 

 

Edit: Also, not sure if you've heard, but submarines are coming to WoWs :Smile_ohmy:  They might bring the OPness of cvs in a bit :cap_like:

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31 minutes ago, loppantorkel said:

Another Enterprise kind of mishandled my Atlanta the other day - those bombs hurt -

 

The bombs?! He must've gotten very lucky to get them to arm. Even at minimum drop altitude it's not guaranteed.

I just molest Atlantas and Flints with rockets. Quite fun seeing all their HP evaporate in just a few runs. It's not like those few losses hurt either thanks to glorious balans.

 

31 minutes ago, loppantorkel said:

Very rarely I feel there's no decent counterplays vs cvs nowadays, but it may be due to worse cv players. Still doesn't detract from the experience of an improved situation. No more Midways or Hakus crapping all over your team because your own cv is a 25% player.

 

So basically "it was those filthy unicums all along?"

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5 minutes ago, loppantorkel said:

Yea, I'll refrain from that, but I feel the cv situation has improved post rework, regardless of why.

Care to explain what you mean by "improved"?

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7 minutes ago, 159Hunter said:

Care to explain what you mean by "improved"?

Basically what I've written in my earlier posts. It's not like I enjoy the games with cvs more than games without cvs, and I'm not overly fond of cv gameplay myself, so it's not that I view cv-rework as a total success to any degree. ...but I rarely check the stats of cv players pre game to know which team is going to win the game, because they are not at all as likely to decide the game on their own as they were pre-rework. That's a considerable improvement imo. I still look for names I could recognize, so I'm not arguing the cvs can't be game deciding, just more rarely.

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49 minutes ago, loppantorkel said:

Edit: Also, not sure if you've heard, but submarines are coming to WoWs :Smile_ohmy:  They might bring the OPness of cvs in a bit :cap_like:

Assuming WG will give roughly historical speeds for subs, both on surface and submerged (and they usually do for surface ships), only CV where I'd be even remotely concerned with subs chasing me would be Langley. Beached due to glorious autopilot.

 

Also sub at periscope depth, to see stuff around can also be seen from air.

 

Unless WG makes subs some gimmick incarnate AND completely rework destroyers, I don't see why you would play submarine.

 

Sub have 4-6 fixed launchers forward, compared to 6-15 torpedo launchers on traversing mount with more or less generous firing arcs

Sub had usually single, maybe twin small caliber gun with exception being French Surcouf, carrying twin 203mm. Even lowliest of DDs carry much more gun power than that

Sub is very slow, between 10-25kts compared to 35kts+ on destroyers.

Sub can temporarily hide herself underwater, DD can pop smoke. Former can be hit with depth charges only, latter can still use guns, both can be detected by electronic means. But only one can actually hope to run away should ship hit the fan.

WG calculates hp from ship tonnage, so you could consider yourself lucky if T10 sub would break 10k hp.

 

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1 minute ago, Panocek said:

Assuming WG will give roughly historical speeds for subs, both on surface and submerged (and they usually do for surface ships), only CV where I'd be even remotely concerned with subs chasing me would be Langley. Beached due to glorious autopilot.

 

Also sub at periscope depth, to see stuff around can also be seen from air.

 

Unless WG makes subs some gimmick incarnate AND completely rework destroyers, I don't see why you would play submarine.

 

Sub have 4-6 fixed launchers forward, compared to 6-15 torpedo launchers on traversing mount with more or less generous firing arcs

Sub had usually single, maybe twin small caliber gun with exception being French Surcouf, carrying twin 203mm. Even lowliest of DDs carry much more gun power than that

Sub is very slow, between 10-25kts compared to 35kts+ on destroyers.

Sub can temporarily hide herself underwater, DD can pop smoke. Former can be hit with depth charges only, latter can still use guns, both can be detected by electronic means. But only one can actually hope to run away should ship hit the fan.

WG calculates hp from ship tonnage, so you could consider yourself lucky if T10 sub would break 10k hp.

 

Maybe subs only will be playable in an asymmetrical PvP mode. It's too early to speculate about stats imo.

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53 minutes ago, loppantorkel said:

Edit: Also, not sure if you've heard, but submarines are coming to WoWs :Smile_ohmy:  They might bring the OPness of cvs in a bit :cap_like:

 

Dunno where this notion comes from. Historically aircraft were among the best sub killers out there.

And if they play anything like in the event they're gonna be far too easy to kill via aircraft.

Funnily enough the only way a sub could threaten a CV is if subs are generally overpowered.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, El2aZeR said:

Ofc it has. The number of actually skilled CV players have been culled down from a couple hundred to maybe two dozen, if even that.

Aka most CVs you meet are braindead :etc_swear:s.

I mean, for us unwashed masses on the ground, that is a much much more relevant change than what you and the elite can achieve - because as you say yourself, there arent a lot of you. So in a weird roundabout way the rework might have kinda achieved its goal? :Smile_teethhappy:

 

Note, of course, the above is only relevant for Randoms - Ranked and CBs where skill gets filtered (and I use that very loosely in the case of Ranked...) are well and thoroughly forked.

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7 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

Snipped

I like the test performed but in order to meaningful results it would have to be performed at least 25+ times to get statistically significant data... Would you be up for it? I'd do the statistics then... 

 

Edit: also I'd love to see the AA turned on in these tests

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:Smile_amazed:

 

You didn't factor in AA?

 

You didn't factor in fighter intervention?

 

I'm sure if you did, that RTS damage would be far less than that :cap_tea:.  Not only that but you would run out of planes against a NC if he was even half AA spec not to mention even a "point and click" fighter engagement. 

 

Can you do that test WITH AA active against a NC? 

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27 minutes ago, loppantorkel said:

Maybe subs only will be playable in an asymmetrical PvP mode. It's too early to speculate about stats imo.

Maybe. And are you certain you want to put this much faith into WG balancing department?:cap_hmm:

 

And sure as hell WG won't leave their main audience of BB players incapable of dealing with subs, so either expect depth charges or catapult plane with one. Majority of cruisers also lack (visually on models) depth charge rails or launchers, making them extra meme, having Hydro but no means of harming submerged submarine.

 

Quick browse through tech tree and these cruisers visually have ASW of one way or another, maybe I've missed something

Spoiler

IJN:

Tenryu, depth charges + launchers at stern

Kuma, depth charges + launchers at stern

Aoba, depth charges at stern

USN:

Phoenix, rails at stern + presumably internally stored depth charges

RU:

Svetlana, rails at stern + presumably internally stored depth charges

Kirov, depth charges + rails at stern

Budyonny, depth charges + rails at stern

Shchors, depth charges + rails at stern

Chapayev, depth charges + rails at stern

Donskoi, depth charges + rails at stern

Moskva, depth charges + rails at stern

Ger:

-404 not found-

UK:

Emerald, depth charges at stern

Leander, depth charges at stern

Fiji, depth charges at stern

Edinburgh, depth charges at stern

FR:

La Gasoline, single depth charge (?) at stern

Saint Louis, two depth charges (?) at stern

 

So, for ASW duties go Russian or go home?

 

 

Besides, "dealing with DD" already involves with overextending, and for that you have ranged radar or hydro. Now imagine getting over enemy sub to sprinkle it with depth charges, I see so many volunteers for that not

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27 minutes ago, Panocek said:

Assuming WG will give roughly historical speeds for subs, both on surface and submerged (and they usually do for surface ships), only CV where I'd be even remotely concerned with subs chasing me would be Langley. Beached due to glorious autopilot.

 

Also sub at periscope depth, to see stuff around can also be seen from air.

 

Unless WG makes subs some gimmick incarnate AND completely rework destroyers, I don't see why you would play submarine.

 

Sub have 4-6 fixed launchers forward, compared to 6-15 torpedo launchers on traversing mount with more or less generous firing arcs

Sub had usually single, maybe twin small caliber gun with exception being French Surcouf, carrying twin 203mm. Even lowliest of DDs carry much more gun power than that

Sub is very slow, between 10-25kts compared to 35kts+ on destroyers.

Sub can temporarily hide herself underwater, DD can pop smoke. Former can be hit with depth charges only, latter can still use guns, both can be detected by electronic means. But only one can actually hope to run away should ship hit the fan.

WG calculates hp from ship tonnage, so you could consider yourself lucky if T10 sub would break 10k hp.

 

Well russian subs will have 8-12 fixed launchers instead.

300mm triple mount gunz.

vereh fast 45knots+ comrade dah!

can stay underwater forevah

Gets 'Motherlands love' HP bonus so Russian subs will have x2 the hitpoints compared to relevant tier DD's

 

balans!

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25 minutes ago, Horin728 said:

I like the test performed but in order to meaningful results it would have to be performed at least 25+ times to get statistically significant data... Would you be up for it? I'd do the statistics then...

 

Considering this experiment is static in nature I'm unsure what that would achieve. Alpha strike, plane turnaround times and strike efficiency don't change. That's like asking me to calculate 2+2 25 times just so we can be sure that the result is 4.

The only variable would be DoT and the potential outcomes can easily be inferred from the above test results. Both iterations would suffer but thanks to a way faster RoF reworked CVs not only have a higher chance to set it, they're also less affected when it occasionally fails them. Meanwhile if I hadn't gotten a flooding on my first strike with RTS E first kill would've gotten severely delayed, with every other subsequent time suffering hard afterwards as well. This gets even worse if I don't get a flooding on my 2nd target either.

 

16 minutes ago, Redcap375 said:

I'm sure if you did, that RTS damage would be far less than that :cap_tea:.

 

I did state that reworked CVs have massive advantages in these regards so in actual combat they will inevitably pull ahead even further compared to RTS ones.

 

Maybe I'll do one with AA active later. Just wanted to demonstrate raw damage potential with this.

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