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AndyHill

Submarines: the next step.

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Weekend Tester
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Is it going to be a total disaster? Do we really need something akin to a super stealthy and slow torp destroyer with no guns - or alternatively something that doesn't even remotely resemble real-life subs? Will this be the next carrier rework or will WG actually manage to pull a rabbit out of a hat and make it work? Will there be world peace and cure for cancer later this year?

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Weekend Tester
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The answer: possibly or not. The fact that they are testing subs initially in a separate game mode on the live server (after the special test server) is potentially a fantastic thing. Of course it limits the impact on the playerbase if the (initial implementation of) submarines goes completely horribly wrong, but it also gives a new option for special ships such as carriers and subs. A separate game mode for both (or both combined) would take these ships out of the randoms queue and if done right, offer a lot of new interesting possibilities for fun and engaging gameplay.

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That "slow" argument is in my eyes a weak argument because this game is an arcade game with ships. 

 

The devs can do what ever they want qua speed. 

 

I'm looking forward to this. And if I would find this game a disaster I wouldn't be playing this game. But I have to say the implementation of subs is much faster than I thought. Because the game doesn't need it at the moment.

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Weekend Tester
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Submarines in real life were extremely slow and that was a very important part of how they fought. Is there point in having a class in the game if it doesn't even remotely resemble actual submarines? In any case WG will simply never make them actually fast compared to DDs, so the slow part will almost certainly apply.

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[ORM]
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if they make the subs above and below water performance correct relative to existing ships, i'm ok with it

 

obviously that would severely limit their ability to locate stealthily at the beginning of the match so i'd be happy if they were given a one time "teleport" radius in the first 30 seconds of a game to reflect how subs were often deployed well in advance of hostilities, obviously not large enough to allow them to appear in a cap or in a epicenter ring, but to allow them to be close but they have to be on the surface if they want to cap

 

also i think they should have to be surfaced to benefit from live minimap information,  after submerging, the map should be frozen and they should be dependent on their own detection abilities for up to date information.

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[JRM]
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Well if they stay in a separate mode - ok, would prefer them in scenarios only without PvP but fudge it

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16 minutes ago, AndyHill said:

Submarines in real life were extremely slow and that was a very important part of how they fought. Is there point in having a class in the game if it doesn't even remotely resemble actual submarines? In any case WG will simply never make them actually fast compared to DDs, so the slow part will almost certainly apply.

In a game were DDs feel like little speedboats (with endless torps on bord) I wouldn't mind a submarine with a higher speed than the standard BB. But slower than all CA/CL/DDs.

 

I wouldn't take this game too seriously . 

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20 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 

Be honest, do you expect anything else?

Will be the final piece which makes me quit the game for good.

Yes, same for me. Man, playing dds is going to hurt.

I just don't get it. Can't they offer a vanilla version of the game without all these trinkets? 

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[SM0KE]
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Whilst WG's track record isn't great (CVs anyone?), at least it looks like they intend proper testing this time; if the time spent in a distinct mode allows subs to be balanced and useful (and fun), then I wouldn't object to them.

 

I'm not optimistic, but we may yet be pleasantly surprised; contrary to that, I note that we're getting close to the first anniversary of the CV rework...

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It is good that they will test it in a separated game mode.

The piranha DDs will have a new pray.

On the other thing I hope they will not give the subs speeds above 20ish knots while above the water and somewhere around 15knots  maximum while submerged, otherwise it might be ridiculous.

 

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After the testing of the Halloween subs I assume they will then look at how much work would be involved in redoing all the maps and how expensive that would be. I assume they would make anti submarine weapons like depth charges akin to AA and something we as players have very little control over. 

 

For WG it's all about profit and loss; how expensive the development would be, how many premium subs and sub camos can they sell vs can they make enough complete tech trees to encourage us to grind lines. Also after the CV debacle do they want to risk it going wrong and potential loosing people when they inevitably screw up balancing (at least for for the first few months).

 

Personally I doubt subs are coming any time soon and I still have significant reservations about how suitable they would be in this game without significant redesigns to how long battles last and where teams spawn.

 

Although they could easily create PvE scenarios where subs hunt convoys etc I doubt those scenarios would be worth the time invested because why buy a premium sub that can only do a scenario, also anyone who actually loved sub play wouldn't be satisfied for long bot hunting.

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[ADRIA]
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I just hope they learnt something from the cv rework and test and polish this fully before they introduce them into randoms, if they plan on doing that. For now, a seperate server and gamemode is the right step. Wg is already on a slippery slope from the cv rework and if they frick this up, it might be the beginning of the end. 

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19 minutes ago, AndyHill said:

The answer: possibly or not. The fact that they are testing subs initially in a separate game mode on the live server (after the special test server) is potentially a fantastic thing. Of course it limits the impact on the playerbase if the (initial implementation of) submarines goes completely horribly wrong, but it also gives a new option for special ships such as carriers and subs. A separate game mode for both (or both combined) would take these ships out of the randoms queue and if done right, offer a lot of new interesting possibilities for fun and engaging gameplay.

 

I agree with you. But im not sure if WG would have that goal to make 2 or more seperate game modes (also they wrote "initially", so they intend to put them into randoms/all other game modes aswell).

Ofc WG wants to get money from subs, and if you make them have their own gamemode, im not sure if they can get enough money out of it. If people want to play PvP, and some are interested in CVs/Subs while others are not, you basicly get 2 parts from the playerbase who wont be playing with one another anymore. And i dont think thats possible with the 15-25k playerbase online on average.

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Beta Tester
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If this is going to be a seperate game mode, well i think its fantastic since many would like a breath of fresh air into the mix of random/ranked/CB. 

 

As for randoms i'll be quiet as i dont like the feeling of pitchforks going my way :Smile_hiding:

 

EDIT: if WG keeps it in a seperate gamemode mabe they can add a corvette or two? 

Edited by Major_Damage225
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Oh dear, WG really are like that character in every horror movie ever who falls foul of the villain by making all the dumbest decisions. As the audience you can see the scrape marks left by a dragged axe on the floor leading to the cellar door and every fibre of your being is screaming "Don't go into the cellar!!!" but, of course, our WG character always says "Hey, let's split up - It'll speed up the search. You guys check upstairs, I'm gonna check the basement."

 

WG all of your recent dumb decisions have failed hard, guess what the result of this one is gonna be. You yourselves said that you would never put subs in game because

"They would be just too difficult to balance properly"

and yet here we are. For the love of god, learn from your mistakes or watch more horror films - either way, "FFS DON'T GO INTO THE CELLAR!!!"

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[CROTZ]
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Superb addition, hopfully having submarines in the random match mode before winter :D

Ramming CV`s with subs will be fun :)

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Beta Tester
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In the end, they gotta bring new stuff to make money.

 

I rather have a new class than endless OP premiums.

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We'll see, but given how extremely well (the /s is implied) they handled the CV rework and the NTC-feedback, this will be the final nail in the coffin for me.

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27 minutes ago, VanD4rk said:

On the other thing I hope they will not give the subs speeds above 20ish knots while above the water and somewhere around 15knots  maximum while submerged, otherwise it might be ridiculous.

 

 

Wait until they get in their head that they should release Russian fantasy subs that goes 50 + kts. :Smile_teethhappy:

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Weekend Tester
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The thing that bothers me most about submarines is that they don't really bring anything new into the game. For all practical purposes they have been in the game since the start, because basically the only thing they did in reality was to provide ambush torpedoes appearing out of nowhere and something for escorts to hunt. With the spotting mechanics and the DD implementation in game we've had both since the start - in a fun and fast paced format.

 

If you take the special concealment thing away (which is what happens in the game since DDs can already easily torp from stealth), submarines are basically slow and weak DDs with meh torps and no guns. At least one of those attributes needs to be buffed completely out of whack to make the class relevant in any way. Thus, we again come back to the question why have subs in the first place if they are nothing at all like the real thing - unless you really think we need new lines of ultra-stealth torp boats.

 

However, unlike with carriers, I believe there's still a small chance that WG have figured out something fantastic and actually made them somehow fun to play as well as play against. The latter part is something just about every game outside the most hardcore wargames have failed at and that's what worries me the most.

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1 minute ago, AndyHill said:

The thing that bothers me most about submarines is that they don't really bring anything new into the game. For all practical purposes they have been in the game since the start, because basically the only thing they did in reality was to provide ambush torpedoes appearing out of nowhere and something for excorts to hunt. With the spotting mechanics and the DD implementation in game we've had both since the start - in a fun and fast paced format.

 

If you take the special concealment thing away (which is what happens in the game since DDs can already easily torp from stealth), submarines are basically slow and weak DDs with meh torps and no guns. At least one of those attributes needs to be buffed completely out of whack to make the class relevant in any way. Thus, we again come back to the question why have subs in the first place if they are nothing at all like the real thing - unless you really think we need new lines of ultra-stealth torp boats.

 

 

Yep, WG said all of this when subs were asked for countless times in the early years.

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24 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

I agree with you. But im not sure if WG would have that goal to make 2 or more seperate game modes (also they wrote "initially", so they intend to put them into randoms/all other game modes aswell).

Ofc WG wants to get money from subs, and if you make them have their own gamemode, im not sure if they can get enough money out of it. If people want to play PvP, and some are interested in CVs/Subs while others are not, you basicly get 2 parts from the playerbase who wont be playing with one another anymore. And i dont think thats possible with the 15-25k playerbase online on average.

 

Well, I tried the test server for the CVs and what I got was:

- playing CV, I got other CVs but just B0T-players in ships;

- playing a ship, all I got was other B0Ts... 

...so that's what porobably will happen unless everybody plays it.

I see a "live server test" soon following...:Smile_hiding:

 

36 minutes ago, Verblonde said:

Whilst WG's track record isn't great (CVs anyone?), at least it looks like they intend proper testing this time; if the time spent in a distinct mode allows subs to be balanced and useful (and fun), then I wouldn't object to them.

See above...

 

36 minutes ago, Verblonde said:

I'm not optimistic, but we may yet be pleasantly surprised; contrary to that, I note that we're getting close to the first anniversary of the CV rework...

""By the end of the event, it became clear that our players are highly interested in submarines and we should be engaged in full development.""

LOL 2018 Halloween event :Smile_trollface:

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On ‎8‎/‎14‎/‎2019 at 2:05 PM, AirSupremacy said:

Ramming CV`s with subs will be fun :)

At a guess, CV:s will likely be the most effective anti-submarine unit on the board. Their planes will be able to locate submarines quicker than any other ship class, and will also be able to attack them with no fear of any counterattack. Unless of course we get submarines with strong AA suits, but that would seem unlikely. (?)

 

Of course, this is just guesswork on my part, based on how carriers worked in real life. There is nothing to prevent Wargaming from tweaking how submarine will interact with the other ship classes. But I seem to recall having read something, somewhere on this forum, about there already being thoughts of anti-submarine weapons on some carriers....?

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