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WG you have got to teach your players

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Alpha Tester, Korzár
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TX battle ended after seven mins.
What a great fun! We won, but i almost asleep. Please. Bring more botchlings to game and world get a cure for insomnia.

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1 hour ago, TheComedian1983 said:

TX battle ended after seven mins.
What a great fun! We won, but i almost asleep. Please. Bring more botchlings to game and world get a cure for insomnia.

 

Go sealclubbing to T5, thats where the fun is. May i suggest Jaguar? :Smile_medal: I think, its worse than Kamikaze. Just shred enemy DDs first, then do what you feel like.

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On 8/19/2019 at 9:23 PM, MortenTardo said:

The avg. WR on the enemy team (The WHOLE team!) is 45%. It is not fun playing with them, and its damn sure not fun playing against them. You have to do something with these players WG. Why are these players allowed to play T10's even? Or T8 for that matter? They should be on the playground eating sand and cat s:etc_swear:

 

Game lasted 6 minutes

 

Edit: I was lucky enough to get the 46% WR team the next game. Was super fun game that lasted 8 minutes. 4 minutes in we had lost over half our team. This is starting to become the norm WG. 

I got the same impression.

 

I am still stuck on the these 2k base XP missions. I tried all day but the battles are just steam-rolls and over before you seriously go to work, one way or the other. I only had one exciting battle today and that was against a purple DD-division. The teams are painfully passive. They push my team with lots of BBs on one flank, they spot a spread of deepwaters and immediately they run home to momma.

I mean please, WG, can we have some battles that deserve to be called battles? Or just rename the "battle"-button to "sunny sunday boat ride for senior citizens". Just tell us what you need. Put some tutorial- or tactics-section into the forum and we fill it. Whatever. Just stop spamming new ships and get the player base motivated. Punish them, bride them, educate them. Anything is better than nothing.

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Alpha Tester, Korzár
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Před 10 hodinami DFens_666 řekl/a:

 

Go sealclubbing to T5, thats where the fun is. May i suggest Jaguar? :Smile_medal: I think, its worse than Kamikaze. Just shred enemy DDs first, then do what you feel like.

On T5 i have an Emerald. That beast can melt everything. Even skilled R player :Smile_teethhappy:
For true seal clubbing i have Iwaki and Arkansas :Smile_trollface:
Btw reason why are low tiers games so good and fun? You can replace six or eight bad players alone. And thats impossible on high tier. There i can replace two or three at max.
Anyway. I look forward to meeting this triggered guy with hidden acc and disassembling him into parts. It will be a pleasant satisfaction. Even if he will be in my team. After all, I know the mechanics (translation and correction wiki) so TK is easy for me :Smile_trollface:
edit:
"sunny sunday boat ride for senior citizens" thats golden :Smile_teethhappy:

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5 hours ago, Merlin851526 said:

Then you don't understand how this works. say for instance all the 40% people disappear from the player pool now. Who's going to fill that void? well obviously what remains,  the high win rate players and unicums . Now when they face off each other your going to have the same dynamic all over again. You yourself might now find yourself a 40% player then what?  Moreover you may be told to get gud and openly abused for your win rate. Hell if some people have their way you won't even be allowed outside co-op to play anymore. So if I were you I would be careful for what you wish for.

You can be a 48% player but having good PR and dmg. Also there would be less ultra unicuums around 75-85%. But also would be less 35% guys too. That should be better for the game. 

People who have less than 30k dmg and 1200 PR with 5k+ battles - they're just bad. Period. WR isn't the most determinant factor. 

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46 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 

Go sealclubbing to T5, thats where the fun is. May i suggest Jaguar? :Smile_medal: I think, its worse than Kamikaze. Just shred enemy DDs first, then do what you feel like.

Nah, Gremmy all day and night :cap_look:

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2 minutes ago, TheComedian1983 said:

I have Gremmy about six months (yup - kek :Smile_trollface:)  and... i don't play him much. No idea why :Smile_amazed:

Great multipurpose DD on this tier. I'm overall not playing so much on T5. From time to time only.

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8 hours ago, walter3kurtz said:

 

No there are perfectly viable and tested matchmaking systems for random games with players of different skill levels.

 

A good example is Trueskill. Look it up if you want to, but in short it comes down to the idea that complex matchmaking systems are not better than simple ones. Just adjusting rating for win or loss, against an opponent or a team of opponents that was predicted to win / lose based on the respective ratings, is enough. It works perfectly well in complex games such as Forged Alliance and is being used today in FAF. It was originally developed for Halo.

 

Would it have downsides? Not really. The beauty of the system is that it can put 1 unicum and 11 potatoes against 12 average players in an instant. Or any combination thereof leading to a better distribution of ratings. It will not look at class distribution, performance per class or anything else but rating based on expected performance. This would also mean that when you're thrown against uneven odds, your rating doesn't decrease on a loss or at least less than it would when you had an even or stronger team. As long as you outperform the systems expectations your rating rises, until the point where you perform as predicted and you rating settles.

 

I personally don't have an issue with WoWs matchmaking right now, but playing balanced battles would be a lot more interesting in the long run.

 

 

So this is wrong and proves that you do not understand how the rating system works. A win or loss does not mean an equal amount of points lost or gained. Your rating ends up where it needs to be.

 

For example, someone outperforms the systems expectation because he only plays divisions in his favorite ship. You will say but that's unfair, because he is really a potato when playing solo. However his rating is accurate for what he does. If he does start to play solo in different ships, his rating will take a big hit on every loss because he gets massacred by players with worse rating.

 

1.

No it doesnt. Sorry.

2.

Mate no Offense. But not only is the Games you Name not MMO Team Games on even an Remotely Similar Scale to WoWs. But on top of that. The only Game which you actually Name which would actually Classify as Team Game in such a Setup as WoWs. Is actually known extremely well for Trueskill not working properly at all there and constantly Matching Extremely High Skilled Players against Complete Newbes due to its Calculation having estimated the chances to Win completely wrong.

Microsoft has been Working at this constantly attempting to get it working Properly. And it is still a Work in Progress expected to come with an entirely new Iteration for the next Games where its supposed to be used.

3.

I did actually just Explain a Whole Crabton of Downsides. But yeah go ahead and Ignore Reality. The Joke is your even Contradicting yourself there. Because you actually Announce that a Unicum with 11 Potatoes would be Equal to 12 Average Players. When just a few Lines Later you will Claim that the System is not about Pushing People down to 50% Winrate but about Weighting Wins and Losses Differently.

4.

Actually it Proves that you have not Understood at all what I said. Because if you dont get Equal Points for each Loss or Win then YOU ARE PART OF A LEAGUE/LADDER System.

After all. If Someone Wins against YOU who is a very Good Player. He Gains more Points than if he Wins against some Newbe who just Joined the Game.

Leagues dont forcibly mean that you only Player against Players in your own League you know.

5.

Now there is another Set of Problems here. Because this Wont tell you much about the Players Skill and only tell you about the Skills of that Division. Meaning he could just be Pulled by his Friends.

But leaving that aside its actually Hilarious that you Choose this of all examples. Because this is another Edging Point of Trueskill as it tends to be absolutely Incapable of Properly Estimating Divisions Influence in a Battle and has so far been Weighting Divisions extremely low which lead to Divisions being extremely Effective at Raising your Personal Ranking due to having a Huge Advantage in Battle if the other Team does not have a Division but still only being Filled with Players roughly Equal to your Skill Level (according to True Skill)

 

In Fact. Wargamings Decision to Simply match any Division with a Division is currently the most Efficient Counter in Matchmaking.  And is actually more Balanced than the Method used in True Skill where a Division is Simply Calculated as an slightly Increased Victory Chance for that Team.

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12 hours ago, Sunleader said:

1.

No it doesnt. Sorry.

 

What doesn't what? Your wording and the formatting of paragraphs with random numbers are all very weird.

 

Quote

2.

Mate no Offense. But not only is the Games you Name not MMO Team Games on even an Remotely Similar Scale to WoWs.

 

SupCom is clearly a team game. I suggest you go and read this: https://wiki.faforever.com/index.php?title=How_Trueskill_works

 

Specifically:

How does it work in team games ?

Each team is the sum of each player rating. You can think that it's not true, because some members of the team probably work harder than others.

Additionally, sometimes special dynamics occur that make the sum greater than the parts.

But it will be impossible to take these in considerations. Instead, Trueskill follow one rule :

“Statistically sophisticated or complex methods do not necessarily provide more accurate forecasts than simpler ones”

At the end of the game, the result of the team is propagated to your personal rating. Meaning that a teammate can gain a lot from a game while you don't gain anything.

 

Quote

But on top of that. The only Game which you actually Name which would actually Classify as Team Game in such a Setup as WoWs. Is actually known extremely well for Trueskill not working properly at all there and constantly Matching Extremely High Skilled Players against Complete Newbes due to its Calculation having estimated the chances to Win completely wrong.

 

Seriously, reading this gave me a headache. SupCom works just fine with Trueskill and there's a whole community happy with it. All serious team games are played with ranking on.

 

Quote

I did actually just Explain a Whole Crabton of Downsides. But yeah go ahead and Ignore Reality. The Joke is your even Contradicting yourself there. Because you actually Announce that a Unicum with 11 Potatoes would be Equal to 12 Average Players. When just a few Lines Later you will Claim that the System is not about Pushing People down to 50% Winrate but about Weighting Wins and Losses Differently.

 

A crabton?

 

I didn't "announce" anything, I gave a rough example explaining why the matching of players in different rating brackets does not slow down matchmaking. Because that's an often heard (and wrong) argument. You're not responding to that but making some kind of argument about winrate. None of this is about winrate at all. Winrate is meaningless without context in a system like Trueskill. You could have 40% winrate in your last 100 games but increase your rating.

 

Quote

Actually it Proves that you have not Understood at all what I said. Because if you dont get Equal Points for each Loss or Win then YOU ARE PART OF A LEAGUE/LADDER System.

After all. If Someone Wins against YOU who is a very Good Player. He Gains more Points than if he Wins against some Newbe who just Joined the Game.

Leagues dont forcibly mean that you only Player against Players in your own League you know.

 

The only thing being proven here is that I'm getting a headache trying to decipher your ramblings.

 

Quote

5.

Now there is another Set of Problems here.

 

Perhaps you should start by explaining the firs set of problems before going into your advanced crabton theories.

 

Quote

Because this Wont tell you much about the Players Skill and only tell you about the Skills of that Division. Meaning he could just be Pulled by his Friends.

But leaving that aside its actually Hilarious that you Choose this of all examples. Because this is another Edging Point of Trueskill as it tends to be absolutely Incapable of Properly Estimating Divisions Influence in a Battle and has so far been Weighting Divisions extremely low which lead to Divisions being extremely Effective at Raising your Personal Ranking due to having a Huge Advantage in Battle if the other Team does not have a Division but still only being Filled with Players roughly Equal to your Skill Level (according to True Skill)

 

Divisions in WoWs are currently rated by Trueskill? It's unclear what you are talking about but it doesn't matter. People having a high rating because of division spam deserve a high rating. When they stop the division spam their rating adjusts. Simple as that. There is not need for additional predictions like you seem to think. Simplicity is what drives Trueskill. Read: https://wiki.faforever.com/index.php?title=How_Trueskill_works

 

Quote

In Fact. Wargamings Decision to Simply match any Division with a Division is currently the most Efficient Counter in Matchmaking.  And is actually more Balanced than the Method used in True Skill where a Division is Simply Calculated as an slightly Increased Victory Chance for that Team.

 

It has been a wild ride, I'll stop right here. Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk.

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7 minutes ago, walter3kurtz said:

 

What doesn't what? Your wording and the formatting of paragraphs with random numbers are all very weird.

 

 

SupCom is clearly a team game. I suggest you go and read this: https://wiki.faforever.com/index.php?title=How_Trueskill_works

 

 

Seriously, reading this gave me a headache. SupCom works just fine with Trueskill and there's a whole community happy with it. All serious team games are played with ranking on.

 

 

A crabton?

 

I didn't "announce" anything, I gave a rough example explaining why the matching of players in different rating brackets does not slow down matchmaking. Because that's an often heard (and wrong) argument. You're not responding to that but making some kind of argument about winrate. None of this is about winrate at all. Winrate is meaningless without context in a system like Trueskill. You could have 40% winrate in your last 100 games but increase your rating.

 

 

The only thing being proven here is that I'm getting a headache trying to decipher your ramblings.

 

 

Perhaps you should start by explaining the firs set of problems before going into your advanced crabton theories.

 

 

Divisions in WoWs are currently rated by Trueskill? It's unclear what you are talking about but it doesn't matter. People having a high rating because of division spam deserve a high rating. When they stop the division spam their rating adjusts. Simple as that. There is not need for additional predictions like you seem to think. Simplicity is what drives Trueskill. Read: https://wiki.faforever.com/index.php?title=How_Trueskill_works

 

 

It has been a wild ride, I'll stop right here. Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk.

 

1.

And you keep Quoting Single Parts which then Dissappear in my Quote of you and thus turn your Post into a Complete mess.

But hey. We all do things others dont like.

In my Case its easy.

The Number Refers to the Statement in the Order of Quotes.

My Statement thus is Directed at your First Answer lol

 

2.

I Play Supreme Commander Thank You. And No Its an RTS. And a very very Solo Focused RTS as well where a Single Player can in Fact Beat Several Players given he gets the Ressources.

Moreover the Multiplayer especially as part of a Skill Based Matchmaking System is Complete Bullcrab in this Game.

 

3.

See above.

 

4.

Just Because you dont Understand the Response does not mean I havnt Given one.

If you didnt get it than thats fine. Dont worry about it.

 

And Mate. Trueskill Calculates Victory Chances and attempts to Balance Players based on Victory Chance to make an Interesting Match where Victory is Earned.

Not very Succesful if I might add.

 

5.

Its way easier to Read then your Out of Context Quotes which cant stick to a Point and which mostly seems to consist of Complaints about my Person.

But hey as I said. If you dont get what I am saying thats Fine.

 

6.

I did. As I said above already. You not Understanding it is Unfortunate but no Deeper Worry.

Many People have no Idea of this kind of thing. Its not exactly something a Player should think about unless he wants to go into Development of Games later on.

 

7.

Its a bit Hilarious that you would so Obviously Misunderstand something when you Quote the Part above.

And no. WoWs Divisions are not Rated by Trueskill. Nobody ever said that either.

Maybe at least attempt to Read what I am Saying if you Answer. Thank you in Advance.

 

8.

Its not exactly a Wild Ride if you just Skim over the Post of someone else. Fail to Understand any of the Persons Points due to not Reading them Properly. And then Complaining about that Person to hide the Fact that you have no Arguments to Counter him.

Its just a very Normal and Daily thing happening in the Forums when someone Realizes he has no Arguments but does not want to Admit he is Wrong.

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1 hour ago, Sunleader said:

I Play Supreme Commander Thank You. And No Its an RTS. And a very very Solo Focused RTS as well where a Single Player can in Fact Beat Several Players given he gets the Ressources.

 

So?
 

Quote

Moreover the Multiplayer especially as part of a Skill Based Matchmaking System is Complete Bullcrab in this Game.

 

 

You can't just present your baseless opinion as fact. Skill based matchmaking for team games works in reality as is already proven by, for example, SupCom.

 

Quote

 

And Mate. Trueskill Calculates Victory Chances and attempts to Balance Players based on Victory Chance to make an Interesting Match where Victory is Earned.

Not very Succesful if I might add. 

 

 

Not very successful? WTF is this based on? Your own opinion again?

 

Quote

I did. As I said above already. You not Understanding it is Unfortunate but no Deeper Worry.

 

You did not, but I do have a 'Deeper Worry' about your ability to write comprehensible sentences.

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22 minutes ago, MacArthur92 said:

@Sunleader why you are going into such offtop?

 

True.

In Fact. Considering the Topic. A Skill Based Matching System would actually be Counterproductive to begin with.

Because if Bad Players get Matched with Bad Players they wont Learn anything and the Gap will become even worse.

 

And I doubt anything beyond Personal Attacks will come out of the other Guy anyways. So might as well stop.

 

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7 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

Because if Bad Players get Matched with Bad Players they wont Learn anything and the Gap will become even worse. 

 

That is not at all what a skill based matchmaker would do. Holy hell you don't get it.

 

It's quite relevant to the topic at hand by the way, because distributing bad players more evenly among teams would remove the one sided roflstomps and lead to more interesting games. Possibly reduce salt levels tremendously.

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40 minutes ago, walter3kurtz said:

It's quite relevant to the topic at hand by the way, because distributing bad players more evenly among teams would remove the one sided roflstomps and lead to more interesting games. Possibly reduce salt levels tremendously.

 

I agree it might lead to more interesting games ... for the players that care.

 

I think THE main issue is that you can't force people to learn or get better, as some just don't care (they just want to have fun, regardless the outcome of the battle), and others think or feel they don't have to learn anything (e.g. players who always blame the team, never look at themselves).

 

 

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But there are already resources that teach players if they want them. And if they're not interested now, they will simply be put off if forced to go through them. Potatoes are a necessity in the game. It gives us something to farm :P

 

There are academies like a community that I belong to that helps 48-percent tadpoles get their heads above 50 with replay analysis and divisioning directly with more experienced players that have the same ships in port. The project has been somewhat successful and you'd be surprised that there is a group of people who are interested in growing. There's another community that has a network of tutors (Help Me, it's called, I think?) that does extraordinarily good work.

There's so much out there that people can use to "git gud", from both Wargaming and its community. In fact, I've never seen a community so focused on delivering advice to newer players.

 

Admittedly, some people either won't or can't learn, either through language barriers or time constraints. Not everyone has the free time to play the game so intently.

 

There's also something else: Advice means nothing without personal experience in screwing up. Because there are so many situations and advice can only equip you so much. A lot of CC tutorial videos display games where they've managed to pull off something abnormally good for the ship. But a typical game (in Farragut, for example), won't get you past 80K even if you're unicum. Those 150+K games are an exception.

 

This is something that took me some time to realize, and even 4000 battles into the game, I'm barely scraping past 53% WR with a 60-70% recent WR oftentimes. It takes a while. A lot of experience. Most people aren't that dedicated.

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2 hours ago, Sunleader said:

 

True.

In Fact. Considering the Topic. A Skill Based Matching System would actually be Counterproductive to begin with.

Because if Bad Players get Matched with Bad Players they wont Learn anything and the Gap will become even worse.

 

And I doubt anything beyond Personal Attacks will come out of the other Guy anyways. So might as well stop.

 

I agree with you but it should be less one sided games, cause even on winning team x such short battles are not fun cause you feel unneeded / bored. Ofc if you’re in the middle of the action killing those unskilled ones easily. But half of the team feels useless. 

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6 hours ago, MacArthur92 said:

I agree with you but it should be less one sided games, cause even on winning team x such short battles are not fun cause you feel unneeded / bored. Ofc if you’re in the middle of the action killing those unskilled ones easily. But half of the team feels useless. 

 

Well. I assume all of us and even WG does Agree with that.

After all the Reason why 0 Points is an Instant Loss. Is because WG Wanted to at least cut such Onesided Battles Short so People could move on to the Next Match.

 

But Its not such an Easy thing to do.

Unfortunately Competetive Games tend to have Large Skill Differences between Players.

 

5 hours ago, TheComedian1983 said:

Player base is healthy and fine:
 

  Hide contents

1762621879_Screenshot_2019-08-21WoWSStatsNumbersEU-probajatek-Playerinfoandstats.thumb.png.179052b3849b73257b2f3c8ee8ca331e.png1288320067_Screenshot_2019-08-21WoWSStatsNumbersEU-tecingle-Playerinfoandstats.thumb.png.1054e0db8e99ea9652b46eb4a61cd049.png

These i met today.
I can't see nothing good in future.
Btw i have one infamous "player" in last battle.
Enjoy him and few others. Small tip: check CV

 

Do you Know this Feeling when after the Battle is lost you have MORE Exp than even the Best Player of the Winning Team ? :)

 

Spoiler

shot-19_08.20_02_37.04-0743.thumb.jpg.7376ce9cc767f96bd4e8be9c297e1816.jpgshot-19_08.20_02.37_08-0317.thumb.jpg.5923bcce6b0a6eae0fcda52bbcf15922.jpg

 

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5 hours ago, Sunleader said:

 

Well. I assume all of us and even WG does Agree with that.

After all the Reason why 0 Points is an Instant Loss. Is because WG Wanted to at least cut such Onesided Battles Short so People could move on to the Next Match.

 

But Its not such an Easy thing to do.

Unfortunately Competetive Games tend to have Large Skill Differences between Players.

 

 

Do you Know this Feeling when after the Battle is lost you have MORE Exp than even the Best Player of the Winning Team ? :)

 

  Reveal hidden contents

shot-19_08.20_02_37.04-0743.thumb.jpg.7376ce9cc767f96bd4e8be9c297e1816.jpgshot-19_08.20_02.37_08-0317.thumb.jpg.5923bcce6b0a6eae0fcda52bbcf15922.jpg

 

WG knows it but they need so much time to do it. That low tier - high tier algorithm that they released now on 0.8.7. They needed 9 updates to do it. And this one is much easier. The one skill based will take them 12-15 updates. But I hope they'll eventually do it so the teams will be more balanced on 2 sides. 

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I dont think WG can teach the monkeys to come down from the tree,buuuttt....

It shold be WG's job to give them as many NEGATIVE feedback as possible...like old WoT days.

(Play like a wortless outright sabotaging moron?Go broke buddy!(From T8)

I cant give them negative feedback,im more chatbanned nowdays than not,but they need it.

 

Now I dont thing skill MM is the solution,but the worst part of the playerbase(those 35-42% "DD mainzzz" and tripple Kurfurst divisions where the brain of the sqad hits 43%wr)

should be OUT of Random battles(clan stuff shure,competetive,ok they can compete eachother all day I dont play that modeXD).

 

My solution give these "players" same,or BETTER (slightly) revards for playing a 12vs12 Coop mode and lock their Coop reasearched ships out from PvP.(everybody loves new currency,lets go whit "rotten potatoe" fo this one)

So they get acces to every ship in the game for their potatoes,bots still kick their asses but they dont spoil randoms whit a Gearing that have 36%wr after 362battles.(and they dont get flamed for beeing what it is since bots are soooo tolerant unlike me)

 

There should be a way back to PvP too im not agsainst the ones that got what it takes to improve their play,but not thinked that hard on it ,this whole post is just wenting after yesterdays "awsome" games anyway.:Smile_facepalm:

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On 8/19/2019 at 1:10 PM, nambr9 said:

 

 

Man .. that is parenting ... and WG is not in that business.

All they can do is have a really big stick and use it..... might work tho.

Very true. But I was merely stating what would actually be more useful to the game. And lets be honest, there's plenty people in this game that actually need to be educated :Smile_trollface:

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On 8/20/2019 at 11:52 AM, FixCVs_Nautical_Metaphor said:

Yup.

 

Just like schools should focus on manners rather than transfer of knowledge and skills.

 

Because it's totally not the parents' job and also they need to finally recognize their main responsibility is solving social problems!!1 (By which I mean both WG and schools!)

 

Schools should actually do both. But of course the vast majority is in fact supposed to be the passing along of knowledge.

But don't forget that they should be educated (that's what schools are for) and this education is not just from the books alone :fish_book:

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