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T3ddyBear

WG you have got to teach your players

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1 minute ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Since apparently teaching and attempting to impart knowledge is useless, yes.

What applications are gained from those is irrelevant.

Useless? No. And you can't compare the game knowledge (that is useless IRL) to general knowledge (which is useful) . The game won't feed you mate.

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1 minute ago, MacArthur92 said:

And you can't compare the game knowledge (that is useless IRL) to general knowledge (which is useful)

 

Yes I can, because the application and thus usefulness of said knowledge was never in question in the first place. The general statement was along the lines of "teaching doesn't work", not "the knowledge a game would impart if it did teach it is useful irl".

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8 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Yes I can, because the application and thus usefulness of said knowledge was never in question in the first place. The general statement was along the lines of "teaching doesn't work", not "the knowledge a game would impart if it did teach it is useful irl".

Well because people see it as "only a game" won't "study the mechanics" . Unlike IRL studies. And in university nobody will teach you. You study by yourself, university isn't school mate - wake up!. And If something will be useful in the future - this motivates to get it in your head. 

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18 minutes ago, MacArthur92 said:

Well because people see it as "only a game" won't "study the mechanics"

 

Still means a game can impart knowledge on its mechanics to you. Forcefully too. The only downside is that you're probably going to lose a couple of players here as they don't want to go through a mandatory tutorial, but it still works. Likewise if you make a tutorial optional there likely won't be too many that will use it.

Doesn't mean however that tutorials can't teach you about game mechanics which is the original point.

 

18 minutes ago, MacArthur92 said:

And in university nobody will teach you.

 

Well :etc_swear:, you mean all the lectures I had to sit through wasn't to teach me something? I knew it, they wanted to make me wake early for those only to :etc_swear: me off! :Smile_trollface:

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28 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Well :etc_swear:, you mean all the lectures I had to sit through wasn't to teach me something? I knew it, they wanted to make me wake early for those only to :etc_swear: me off! :Smile_trollface:

The lectures mean nothing is you won't note them down and study them (not learn them) at home. 

In medical studies you didn't have typical lectures. You had to study the material every day by your own. Nobody "highlighted" for you what's important. Nobody did care. We had a lecture after the professor asked each one about the material. We were getting points for each question, gathering them all the year. Old hard times . That's how looked my 1st and 2nd year in university. 

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12 minutes ago, MacArthur92 said:

The lectures mean nothing is you won't note them down and study them (not learn them) at home.

 

Obviously.

Can't say my experience in Uni is comparable to yours tho. That sounds rough.

 

I wouldn't expect such a level of commitment to a game, but knowing basic stuff such as the difference between HE and AP shells and when to use them neither requires that nor is it asking too much imo.

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facts:

 

1) you cannot teach people who doesn't want to learn - I play for PHUN!

2) you cannot teach people who doesn't know they need to learn - I carry carry but I cannot win! All bad players on my side

3) you cannot teach people who thinks they already know - WR is decided by MM, Skill has nothing to do with it..

 

on the other hand,

 

4) You don't need to teach people who wants to learn, understands that they can improve

5) you don't need to teach them because vast amount of materials are available in internet for anyone who wants to find. Which is many times more and detailed than any tutorial that WG can put in.

 

But most importantly,

there is only one way to teach people of the first group,

Against their will...

 

If you force the teaching on them.. you may lose some.. may be a lot of them..

WG will not do that...

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1 hour ago, MacArthur92 said:

university isn't school mate - wake up!.

 

Not my experience tbh .. uni felt just like all other schools I went too (i.e. I hated it)

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On 8/13/2019 at 8:32 PM, Nocturnal_Scream said:

whole Problem could be fixed together with about 100 more of this game with one, one tiny simple addition:

 

SKILL-BASED-MATCHMAKING

which is a norm for basicly any online game out there, but well..... i guess that will never happen on wg games. introduce time limitly like for the amount of cvs in a game, but try to match peoles skill closer together. I‘m positive that most of the community would absolutely love to wait 30seconds long for a game if you then get a game which is not a total clown-fiesta

But how do you make a skillbased MM?

WR is out of the question. If you put people with high WR against each other over 100s or 1000s of games of canselling out each other their WR will be as crappy as the 40% shits which will also cansel each other out. Everyone will have around 50%. At which point great players will again be matched against retarded ones as the MM cant tell them apart.

 

PR might work better but constantly being matched against other people with good PR will limit what you can do and bring it down. If you have crappy PR playing other crappy players will allow you to survive longer, thus doing more, thus increasing your PR.............

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On 8/13/2019 at 6:27 PM, T3ddyBear said:

WG, I know this is old hat but it is getting really silly now.

 

You have got to teach your players how to play this game, IN THE CLIENT, do not expect players to go to youtube, watch some CC's vids. This is your game, start acting like it.

 

This is becoming the norm.

 

There was a thread about bad DD players ruining the gameplay recently, it is not just the DD's, it is all classes.

 

TB.

 

 

 

what i dont get is how these bad players can be so frequent as to be a problem but yet are also so badly divided between the teams that they are actually able to influence the win rate to such a huge degree.

 

If these "bad" players were on each team they would cancel out. but aparently there is just enough to be in each game only on one side and their lack of ability is so bad that apaprently 11 other good players can not cancel it out, with a regularity that can lead to low 30's win rate.

 

that doesnt seem possible 

 

either being good is utterly irrelevent and win/loss is decided purely on which team has the single worst player. seems unlikely as i understand there are people with up to around 65%+ win rates? still thats only half the swing.

 

or, The MM is doing something very funky or these are accounts created to provide losses to some other teams wins.. ie win traders.

 

or, the figures are just flat out wrong

 

or there  is some other manipulation/cause im not guessing

 

but if you live by the figures you will die by them , if win rate is what you use to judge a player skill its what they will use to solve the problem and you will end up with MM that forces an around 50% win rate (if they ever considered it something they need to act on). 

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8 minutes ago, Padds01 said:

 

what i dont get is how these bad players can be so frequent as to be a problem but yet are also so badly divided between the teams that they are actually able to influence the win rate to such a huge degree.

 

If these "bad" players were on each team they would cancel out. but aparently there is just enough to be in each game only on one side and their lack of ability is so bad that apaprently 11 other good players can not cancel it out, with a regularity that can lead to low 30's win rate.

 

that doesnt seem possible 

 

either being good is utterly irrelevent and win/loss is decided purely on which team has the single worst player. seems unlikely as i understand there are people with up to around 65%+ win rates? still thats only half the swing.

 

or, The MM is doing something very funky or these are accounts created to provide losses to some other teams wins.. ie win traders.

 

or, the figures are just flat out wrong

 

or there  is some other manipulation/cause im not guessing

 

but if you live by the figures you will die by them , if win rate is what you use to judge a player skill its what they will use to solve the problem and you will end up with MM that forces an around 50% win rate (if they ever considered it something they need to act on). 

Good Lord, There IS manipulation in the team balance by the mm code. It constant, it is following a pattern and it isn't 'random'. More unicums in one team or more experienced players (if unicums are not available) is the most common. Numerous examples of games finishing by the 5 min mark.This means that 12 players on one team were doing nothing but getting shot at. How 'random' is this?  The latest thing added I (and many others) have witnessed is the stacking of teams with radars so as to create an overwhelming advantage and ensure a loss (baring a superhuman/lucky effort by a player). It may be one more, 2 or even 3. It is being implemented in ranked rn and it will come to random full force soon. Seriously I had games against 3 radars and we had none. We almost won once too, but I ain't doing it again. Anyway mm is designed to work exactly as it is, hence why you hear stuff like 'we will address the mm in T8'. It is doing all this for a reason that is profitable for the company. I agree with the post for the most part but I don't see anything change and frankly I'm scared of change. It may turn to be worse :) 

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9 hours ago, lossi_2018 said:

Good Lord, There IS manipulation in the team balance by the mm code. It constant, it is following a pattern and it isn't 'random'. More unicums in one team or more experienced players (if unicums are not available) is the most common. Numerous examples of games finishing by the 5 min mark.This means that 12 players on one team were doing nothing but getting shot at. How 'random' is this?  The latest thing added I (and many others) have witnessed is the stacking of teams with radars so as to create an overwhelming advantage and ensure a loss (baring a superhuman/lucky effort by a player). It may be one more, 2 or even 3. It is being implemented in ranked rn and it will come to random full force soon. Seriously I had games against 3 radars and we had none. We almost won once too, but I ain't doing it again. Anyway mm is designed to work exactly as it is, hence why you hear stuff like 'we will address the mm in T8'. It is doing all this for a reason that is profitable for the company. I agree with the post for the most part but I don't see anything change and frankly I'm scared of change. It may turn to be worse :) 

Did my homework, even won a 3rd CC flag. Known this in 2018, "took a break". MM just doesn't account for radar/sonar ships per side and divisions boost this imbalance to the extreme if each of your division mates activates those "skills" in sequence negating an area by themselves for 5 minutes or longer (plenty of flamu ranked games on yt, etc.). WG "reworks" CV's yet again, takes spotting from smoke for dd's away and continues to mess with spotting mechanics but radar/sonar is "fine". Drop the historical accuracy and nerf dps, hp, armour etc. for ships that haw this utility power. 

 

qxirpu7jkfw21.jpg

Every time i see a yt/streamer complaining that he gets focus fired at  for playing a radar/sonar ship.

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I think WG should focus on teaching their players how to have good manners and good behavior instead as I believe this would add more to the game. In a good way of course.

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I spent a lot of time teaching others. It's part of reason why i'm a Privateer.
I spent a lot of time bring some simple and, above all, inexpensive ways to easily implement the learning mechanics directly to game and to WG ears. But WG doesn't want this for reasons already described. So i give up some time ago.
Accept that the quality of the player base is horrible and will be even worse.
A normal WoWs player is a creature barely responsive to light.
Quite commonly I'm the only one in a team or whole battle who has a WR above 50%.
There is no light at the end of the tunnel. If so, it is a train headlight on route from NTC to Submarines.

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I really do agree with the OP but it will never happen due to one unalterable truth.

Many potatoes have the deepest pockets.

 

My contribution to the 'never happen' list of suggestions would be that if you consistently earn less than 500 base XP across, say 50 games, then you have to play say 10 games in co-op before returning to random battles.  

 

Another would be to limit premium ship purchase to the highest tier unlocked tech tree ship.  

 

It's all an exercise in futility though because for every one you filter out there are ten waiting to fill the spot.

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9 hours ago, Sunleader said:

1+2.

Yep.

But its Completely Irrelevant to my Statement because many Players will never Actually Play each Ship in such Vast Numbers that this comes into effect.

Most People will Play maybe 50-100 Games per Ship. In Rare cases 200.

Thats nowhere near enough for Propability to Balance out Spikes from RNG.

First of all I would ask for a certain structure. It's hard to see which part of your post corresponds to which part of mine. I would suggest quoting specific paragraphs.

Be that as it is. I don't think the game needs a ship-specific MM. If I look at player stats, I look at their total WR and maybe control for their tier-wise WR. A player with a high WR, not padded by seal-clubbing is better than a player with a mediocre WR. You get a pretty good picture over a few hundred battles.

In an extreme case you e.g. would falsely assign a good player into a lower league as he had some bad luck over a dozen of battles and his total WR was slightly below some threshold. In that lower league he would likely win more games and be promoted to the higher league after a short period. The system is pretty flexible and it balances out. So even if you were to use only OP ships, your WR would increase and you would get matched against better players or players also using OP ships.

Situations that would not happen anymore is novices being matched against purple seal-clubbers. I think that would be a very important step, that new players experience some success and not be steam-rolled by experienced players shying away from real competition.

Quote

3.

So Basicly you want to Remove Access to Certain Ships from Players based on their Skill Level ?

Wow thats Hardcore. And will absolutely NEVER happen lol

Yes, it's hard-core and will never happen. That's beside the point. The topic, as so often, is created by someone who cannot take the utter incompetence and lack of effort of parts of the community anymore and we present solutions. It is a very natural reaction that some people won't like certain solutions cause they would ruin their egocentric playstyle. Their reaction is pure self-preservation and ofc also vanity cause, as repeatedly pointed out, bad players think they are good players and come up with any bold explanation as to why stats are meaningless and don't reflect their true genius.

Quote

4.

Well Mate. Sorry to Tell you. But actually this would Bother ALOT of People lol.

Especially if like you said above. You would not Permit Players outside of a Certain League to Play certain Ships :)

But even without that. This would end up being a Highly Discriminatory Factor in the Game and would piss off alot of People.

 

Needless to say that it would come with the other Problems I already Described there.

The Better and the Worse Leagues would constantly be Faced with Incredible Long Waiting Times due to Lack of Opponents.

Fewer tiers, shorter queues. You're welcome.

I am sure such a system would bother some people, which is a good sign. If it doesn't bother the play for phun trolls, it's not a solution in the first place. What do you expect? You talk about an attitude that wants to get rewarded for just being there and making no effort. I am sure a lot of people would like to earn their money on a job where they just check their email and do nothing productive. Any solution that requires some effort will bother them, as they compare it to their lazy days. But in the long-run they will get used to it. And if they don't, who cares? I know, WG. Our 12v12 games currently are 7v7 anyway as 5 players on each side could just as well be bots and you wouldn't notice the difference, apart from the bots actually moving for the caps and hitting their targets. How is some BB doing patrol duty on the A-line an enrichment? So I play 11v11 and love it rather that 12v12 and having to ping someone who expects the rest of the team to carry his lazy buttocks.

Quote

Not to Mention. As Players Perform Vastly Different with Different Ships even within the same Class. You would need to basicly have to assign the Player a Different League for each Ship.

 

5.

Nice Quiz.

But you mocking the Problem wont Solve it :)

Well, discussing obviously won't either, cause we have been discussing that over and over in so many other topics before and it didn't solve anything. Wargaming knows the community has conflicting interests. They don't care. They don't see the link to revenues, and solving other issues nobody complains about is more important to them, like the research bureau, so many of us advocated. So we might as well enjoy ourselves, mocking the problem. If there is people in the game having phun and a blatant disregard for the other players legitimate interest to play a game as intended, why would such a behaviour bother anybody as part of a post? In fact anybody who likes to derp for phun should especially enjoy and appreciate that part of my post, no?

And if it bothers someone, well now he knows how I feel about his playstyle.

Quote

6.

And How exactly do you get this Message to the People which up to this Day dont even know that Damage on a DD will Earn more 4 times as much Exp than Damage on a BB ? :)

Mate. These People Shut Down their Brain to Play. They Play for Fun. Not for Rewards or to Win.

They dont give a Crab on how much Exp the Capture Point Gives em :P

It's only part of a solution. There is no single solution for all the different motivations to not play the game the intended way. The solution you seem to refer to in 6. is for people rationally speed-grinding through 6-8 games an hour. These players know how to get XP the fastest way, they just don't apply. In other topics it has been established that they can easily get 2500 baseXP per hour just yoloing or afking. For such a rational player it makes sense to not consciously play the game but spend the minimal amount of time in each battle and spam battles to get the most XP at minimal effort. You reach them by making their strategy less efficient and thus unattractive.

Other motivations must be addressed by other means, like the initially requested tutorials.

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1 hour ago, NothingButTheRain said:

I think WG should focus on teaching their players how to have good manners and good behavior instead as I believe this would add more to the game. In a good way of course.

 

Man .. that is parenting ... and WG is not in that business.

All they can do is have a really big stick and use it..... might work tho.

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L2P!!!!! :Smile_izmena: 

 

Yeah,I admit...I too get frustrated with absolute potato teams when they are on my side. And then I realize yet again,I was a potato too when I started out,and from time to time I get a brainfart and I potato again. Life is messy,ship happens.

 

Let's get one thing clear,the people you are complaining about,most of them will never read the forums....because they are casual players,not the gamers most of us here are. We also have to keep in mind there is a difference in knowledge and experience,Wargaming can create the most elaborate,in depth tutorial to teach new players the game mechanics,the knowledge how to play the game....but only playing the game with and against other players,by making mistakes and learning from those mistakes,players will gain the experience they need to be better at playing the game.Only experience can teach you what,when and how to apply the knowledge. 

 

And not all players are created equal...some are natural gamers and learn quick,others will never learn and are perpetually stuck in potato mode....and most of us are somewhere in the middle,average players with some great,and sometimes not so great moments.

 

The only person you have control over is you,so there are 2 things you can do when you find yourself in a potato team...either get really good so you can carry your team,or accept that you might lose the game and shake it off,beter luck next time.

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17 hours ago, Major_Damage225 said:

Teaching players/people about the game sound all fine and dandy on paper, problem being is some just dont want or care to learn :Smile_sceptic:

 

throw few hundrets of gold for completing (like in wowp) and everybody will do it

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5 hours ago, Systergummi said:

But how do you make a skillbased MM?

WR is out of the question. If you put people with high WR against each other over 100s or 1000s of games of canselling out each other their WR will be as crappy as the 40% shits which will also cansel each other out. Everyone will have around 50%. At which point great players will again be matched against retarded ones as the MM cant tell them apart.

 

PR might work better but constantly being matched against other people with good PR will limit what you can do and bring it down. If you have crappy PR playing other crappy players will allow you to survive longer, thus doing more, thus increasing your PR.............

Really 40% shits and [edited] this what rational debate passes for here? It's this type of elitist nonsense that further drives a wedge into the community. Moreover it's always the usual suspects as well, always wanting to control how others play. I'm astounded at some of the suggestions although I shouldn't really be. More have suggested restricting people's ability to buy premium ships:Smile-_tongue:, suggesting certain win rates or lack of are sent to co-op for a period are the ones that stick out for me. 

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On 8/13/2019 at 6:27 PM, T3ddyBear said:
  Hide contents

How.png.e981b39b35aafddc63eaf7a791c51a81.png

 

 

<scratches head>
Not sure what your point is.  Even if we were going on something entirely random like coin-flips, you'd expect some people to do extremely badly, and some people to do extremely well, in roughly equal proportions on a bell curve.

Getting to Tier10 is a measure of patience (and in some cases, wealth), not skill, so surely cherry-picking these examples is still exactly the sort of thing we'd expect to see at this point in the game's life, even excluding stuff like AFK bots farming xp /credits / daily boxes?

 

I mean, yeah you could intensively train these players to hopefully up their damage / winrate, but that must logically correspond to a fall in damage / winrate from the players who are now being killed by them and losing to them?  Even if all players were equal (and thus 50-50 win chance like a coinflip), we'd still have statistical outliers - and yes, at Tier10...

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34 minutes ago, Merlin851526 said:

Really 40% shits and [edited] this what rational debate passes for here? It's this type of elitist nonsense that further drives a wedge into the community. Moreover it's always the usual suspects as well, always wanting to control how others play. I'm astounded at some of the suggestions although I shouldn't really be. More have suggested restricting people's ability to buy premium ships:Smile-_tongue:, suggesting certain win rates or lack of are sent to co-op for a period are the ones that stick out for me. 

I wasnt suggesting anything I was wondering how a skillbased MM would look like.

 

Then again Im sorry for my pottymouth. :Smile_amazed:

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A good way to start would be to put WG writers to work updating the very game manual, which is four years out of date (meaning it has never been updated, to the point where parts of it literally do more harm than good today.)

 

 

The manpower is quite obviously available, but is instead being kept busy with needless busywork such as

https://worldofwarships.eu/en/news/general-news/rogue-wave-results/

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