Aircraft Carrier Suggestion

[Duecut]

Before we start, I will admit that I don’t play Aircraft Carriers and this is no doubt going to rub someone up the wrong way.

 

My issue with Aircraft Carriers is during the setup phase of the match (the first 1.5 minutes of the match where everyone is getting into position), this is usually when an Aircraft Carrier sends out its attack planes to do a bit of spotting before rocket spamming their chosen DD. Which 4 times out of 5 results in the DD losing 50-70% of its health before anyone in the game has fires a single shot (especially when the DD is bottom Tier). Now when this situation happens during the fighting part of the match, then its fair game the DD got themselves into that position it’s their fault for not considering the Aircraft Carrier when fighting with other ships, however when it happens in the setup it’s really bit infuriating and could almost be considered spawn killing.

 

I didn’t start this thread to bash Aircraft Carriers (there's enough of that), I’ve Identified a problem as I see it so it’s only right that I suggest a possible solution. Which is to make it so that no aircraft can be launched until the first ship is spotted in the match (not the first ship spotted on the enemy team, just the first ship spotted), to make it fair across the board this should also include spotter planes.

 

I think implementing this would:

- Enable ships to get into position before the fight, promoting more tactical thinking

- Force Aircraft Carrier players to consider their positioning of the carrier at the beginning of the match, rather than set up camp in the spawn until the brown trouser moment later when a BB launches a salvo at them

- Give better data with regard how Aircraft Carrier’s perform in a match, leading to more accurate balancing of Aircraft Carrier vs ship AA rather than the pendulum swing that's been implied in so many other posts

- I believe for a good Aircraft Carrier player this would not interfere with the gameplay or results and ideally there would be less complaining about Aircraft Carriers in game.

 

But this is m perspective, What do you think?

[Ubertron_X]

Isn't there a delay for starting CV planes already? Or was this cancelled?

 

On the other hand DDs could simply start to learn not to outrun their AA cover once a CV is present in the match? Or start to learn when to press "p"?

 

 

[El2aZeR]

Not going to happen. WG already tested a delay of up to 45 seconds before CVs can launch their first squad. They determined that CV players are all suffering from hyperactivity disorder and can't be expected to suffer the "boredom" of such a "huge" pause in their gameplay.

[Ubertron_X]

5 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

They determined that CV players are all suffering from hyperactivity disorder and can't be expected to suffer the "boredom" of such a "huge" pause in their gameplay.

Well no surprises here as RTS player skill is usually meassured in clicks per second. Oh wait...

[Verblonde]

12 minutes ago, Duecut said:

I’ve Identified a problem as I see it so it’s only right that I suggest a possible solution.

It's a good thought, hence why (or possibly not!) WG tested the idea, as already mentioned.

 

My feeling is that it's a bit unnecessary if you're in a DD with competent AA, assuming you keep an obstacle between you and the enemy fleet during the initial DD-plane encounter; it also probably wouldn't do enough for DDs with poor AA - dead in half a minute versus dead in a minute (slight exaggeration, but you know what I mean) doesn't really make much difference.

 

Given how much CVs have been nerfed (and may be about to be further nerfed), I don't think it's unreasonable for we DD drivers to have to play slightly differently if there is a CV present. What I do think needs fixing is the almost total vulnerability that some DDs have versus planes.

 

All that assumes typical CV players; if you face someone like @El2aZeR then the correct procedure is to thrust your head as far between your legs as flexibility will allow and endeavour to kiss your donkey good-bye...!

[BLUB__BLUB]

18 minutes ago, Verblonde said:

All that assumes typical CV players; if you face someone like @El2aZeR then the correct procedure is to thrust your head as far between your legs as flexibility will allow and endeavour to kiss your donkey good-bye...!

Even the masterrrr cannot insta-kill a DD with rockets. OK he'll take three strikes then... and kill them anyway 

But that would be the T8 premium vs a T6 DD, and a stupid DD too. 

 

More likely the DD gets the rockets, and loses ~15%HP. I've had some that were impossible for me to hit hough.

Then I usually leave them alone and go hunting for a less savvy one. Unless he tries to get my CV, then I'll go get the  bombs... 

Which re actually a wate to use on a DD so I never do unless I have to. Yes, damage to a DD delivers more XP. But less credits.

And since I have a tech-tree CV, I must make the battle worthwhile, too. Better start a fire for 15-20k on a BB. 

 

But a CV sure can (and will) kill a DD if he wants or has to do it. 

IMO it's not a CV job to go after DDs - best left to other DDs and cruisers, they have the tools for it.

If DDs get nasty or whatever and the green DDs/CLs don't do their jobs... I'll do it though. 

I'll even manage to shove a torpedo up a DD. Annoy/ignore the CV at your own peril.

 

And if a DD comes after the CV well not complain afterwards, unless very good or sneaky there's only one way it will end.

[Verblonde]

18 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

I've had some that were impossible for me to hit hough.

Then I usually leave them alone and go hunting for a less savvy one.

This basically describes my approach: besides accepting that I'll get spotted a lot more, I try and do as much damage to the CV's initial probe as possible, and hope that he'll chase someone else for a while.

 

The trouble is that this only works with solid AA, and DDs that lack this are largely forced to play like sub-par cruisers when a CV is in play - it's this latter that I'd like to see some sort of solution to (that isn't nerf CVs until they can't even sink a Kagero, say).

[RenamedUser_92906789]

Proposed, considered, apparently tested, reverted, abandoned, forgotten, ignored.

 

Usual business...

[artic_99]

It was good that it was thrown away. However the problem with dd's is real. But most of the problem is caused by people playing dd's. They can just stay in fleet the first 2 min and are relatively safe. I would suggest to exclude rockets. Give cvs additional bombers for it. Like 1 ap wing and one he wing. So cvs can still fight dd's but it would be much harder. On the other hand they would be buffed against cruisers and battleships. That would take away focus from dd's. 

[beercrazy]

37 minutes ago, artic_99 said:

It was good that it was thrown away. However the problem with dd's is real. But most of the problem is caused by people playing dd's. They can just stay in fleet the first 2 min and are relatively safe. I would suggest to exclude rockets. Give cvs additional bombers for it. Like 1 ap wing and one he wing. So cvs can still fight dd's but it would be much harder. On the other hand they would be buffed against cruisers and battleships. That would take away focus from dd's. 

I would prefer the 1 strike capability

you get more aircraft in the strike squad ie 6 torp bombers, 6 dbs and 5 rocket aircraft and you don't do no silly circle and strike a ship time after time and the torps should also do more damage so you start and hit bbs hard again

 

[Episparh]

8 hours ago, Duecut said:

I will admit that I don’t play Aircraft Carriers and this is no doubt going to rub someone up the wrong way.

This is your problem! Play CV and try to attack some competent DD,  I am sure you will figure it eventually:

1. Hit P and disable AA

2. When you see planes turn into them before they detect you - this will limit their aiming time. 

3. Do not overextend

 

 

[affie]

2 minutes ago, beercrazy said:

I would prefer the 1 strike capability

you get more aircraft in the strike squad ie 6 torp bombers, 6 dbs and 5 rocket aircraft and you don't do no silly circle and strike a ship time after time and the torps should also do more damage so you start and hit bbs hard again

 

I would really like to see this mechanics, maybe they can try it on one premium CV and make it its gimmick and evaluate after that. Sort of like how Massachusetts seems to have rebalanced the thoughts around secondaries leading to buffed german penetration. 

 

Regarding the DD problem I would say it is the mentality of DD players that must adjust to CV meta (old and new) , just like in old RTS days when a competent CV player circled every cap with fighters. The thing is that CVs are more common now and many players don't seem to adjust accordingly. They still charge the cap and more or less commit suicide instead of sailing with the fleet and sneak into the cap when it is safe to do so. I've had games where the caps still are neutral after 10 minutes and still enyoyed them, so the charge a cap mentality is what must go away. 

[beercrazy]

45 minutes ago, affie said:

I would really like to see this mechanics, maybe they can try it on one premium CV and make it its gimmick and evaluate after that. Sort of like how Massachusetts seems to have rebalanced the thoughts around secondaries leading to buffed german penetration. 

 

Regarding the DD problem I would say it is the mentality of DD players that must adjust to CV meta (old and new) , just like in old RTS days when a competent CV player circled every cap with fighters. The thing is that CVs are more common now and many players don't seem to adjust accordingly. They still charge the cap and more or less commit suicide instead of sailing with the fleet and sneak into the cap when it is safe to do so. I've had games where the caps still are neutral after 10 minutes and still enyoyed them, so the charge a cap mentality is what must go away. 

great idea for the the premium

wg could then take it further and release the odd tiers (5,7,9) as silver ships but featuring the 1 strike capability

 

but for some reason wg seems to be stuck with the idea its "aa changes" needed and not actually changing how cvs work which is a shame

[KillStealBoss]

Why not to use the main CV thread? 

 

[El2aZeR]

50 minutes ago, affie said:

The thing is that CVs are more common now and many players don't seem to adjust accordingly.

 

This is wrong on 2 counts.

1. Reworked CVs are either equally as or slightly less popular than RTS CVs. Regardless they're likely to become even less popular with the next round of AA buffs.

2. There is no adapting to reworked CVs. How well a reworked CV does is entirely up to them and does not depend on actions nor the skill of the surface ship player. The only thing you can do is pray that the enemy CV is ed (which is very likely on the other hand considering how badly CV average skill has suffered from the rework).

[KillStealBoss]

59 minutes ago, affie said:

The thing is that CVs are more common now and many players don't seem to adjust accordingly.

Have you been playing the game in last month? 

[Duecut]

36 minutes ago, MacArthur92 said:

Why not to use the main CV thread? 

 

Sorry, I seen that the original post was over a year old and most of the recent posts were regarding AA capabilities of specific ships so didn't think a suggestion would be picked up

 

1 hour ago, Episparh said:

This is your problem! Play CV and try to attack some competent DD,  I am sure you will figure it eventually:

1. Hit P and disable AA

2. When you see planes turn into them before they detect you - this will limit their aiming time. 

3. Do not overextend

I do disable AA at the beginning of every match and only activate it when I'm detected by the aircraft. I generally don't over extend and turning into the attack planes doesn't make an ounce of difference.

 

I was suggesting this because recently I've ended up in a lot of T10 games and I only have a T8 DD (lightning). In every game that had a T10 carrier I was their chosen victim, I tried smoking up just to have the attack plane circle until the smoke disappeared, I tried sitting on the butt of a T10 cruiser which meant I didn't lose as much health but I was still the favourite target. The only game that's been good was when the carrier didn't spot me in the first minute so that was why I was suggesting this.

9 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

WG already tested a delay of up to 45 seconds before CVs can launch their first squad.

I didn't realise this had been attempted before.

 

Lastly, Thank all for not hitting me with the "learn to play better" comments

[Padds01]

9 hours ago, Duecut said:

Before we start, I will admit that I don’t play Aircraft Carriers and this is no doubt going to rub someone up the wrong way.

 

My issue with Aircraft Carriers is during the setup phase of the match (the first 1.5 minutes of the match where everyone is getting into position), this is usually when an Aircraft Carrier sends out its attack planes to do a bit of spotting before rocket spamming their chosen DD. Which 4 times out of 5 results in the DD losing 50-70% of its health before anyone in the game has fires a single shot (especially when the DD is bottom Tier). Now when this situation happens during the fighting part of the match, then its fair game the DD got themselves into that position it’s their fault for not considering the Aircraft Carrier when fighting with other ships, however when it happens in the setup it’s really bit infuriating and could almost be considered spawn killing.

 

 

 

disclaimer i would call myself a carrier main , sort of on hold waiting for the aa and matchmaking changes.

 

frankly in this situation ive got all the sympathy for the destroyer as he will have for the BB that sails in a straight line and eats the first wall of skill of the game. you tend to spawn in groups of at least 3. if you spawn in a vulnerable situation thats something that needs fixing, but the decision was made to run ahead alone to try and race the cap. its old behaviour that worked when CV's werent there so if you isolate yourself , are a class thats the biggest thtreat to the CV and also weak to its attack, damn right your gonna get punished, me ill send a second / third wing and that DD will be the first out of the game.

 

If CV's make it so getting caps is a more team oriented thing rather than what everyone sits back and relies on the DD's to do id call that a good change.

 

That said i do agree that the spotting capabilities of a CV are too punitive and not just for destroyers. there are in my mind too many thngs that punish agressive play and the CV spotting is up thier as a main offender. they should be great at spotting fleet dispositiona and location just allowing for accurate out of sight firing is a bit too punishing, and i mean that workd its not a power thing its how it punishes people caught out trying to get something done.

 

I would change CV spotting , have them reveal things on the mini map as they do now , and then either apply a huge dispersion penalty to anyone firing at any ship that is only spotted by a plane (spotting aircraft to? no them i would remove ;)).  OR simply not reveal a CV plane spotted ship inthe main view at all perhaps giving the CV spotted ship a surface concealment penalty while spotted.

 

But a DD running alone to a cap , nah thats just bad choices.

[Episparh]

37 minutes ago, Duecut said:

I do disable AA at the beginning of every match and only activate it when I'm detected by the aircraft. I generally don't over extend and turning into the attack planes doesn't make an ounce of difference.

So smoke is OK when CV use fighter to spot a zone, but your error is keeping a Hot AA after you are spotted.. So CV can see you all the time and plan the best way to your tears. Keep AA off when there are DB, AP or TB close to you. The CV aim requires time and distance and each correction throws this away. DDs have relatively low air detection so if you keep your AA off the CV will need to guess your direction and throttle back to have a chance to hit you (but throttle is also limited). If you go perpendicular to attack planes or run away you just give more time for him to aim. The only way is to shorten the time from when you are detected to when you can be attacked to minimum... In that cases only the spotting can hurt you and other ships can actually hit you. 

 

My suggestion is still valid, take CV and try to attack DDs. You will find out fast what DD actions make life hard or easier for a CV. 

[El2aZeR]

3 minutes ago, Episparh said:

The CV aim requires time and distance and each correction throws this away. DDs have relatively low air detection so if you keep your AA off the CV will need to guess your direction and throttle back to have a chance to hit you (but throttle is also limited).

 

Mouse aim has little effect on accuracy and is sufficient to adjust to any course correction a DD might make.

Also CV planes turn way faster than you do. The few seconds you are unspotted are meaningless.

[Episparh]

15 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Mouse aim has little effect on accuracy and is sufficient to adjust to any course correction a DD might make.

Also CV planes turn way faster than you do. The few seconds you are unspotted are meaningless.

In general you are right but DDs are fast ships also. So CV spots them at 2.Something km and fligh away to get in attack position, DDs makes a turn and goes straight to plane direction on max speed when limiting the attack time of when CV spots the DD to effectively attack. The CV counter to this is throttle back, but it's still close and the throttle will be enough for one - three passes. Maybe it's not enough to counter a unicums CV but in 80% of the cases the CV will barely scratch the DD. 

 

P. S. Had similar game yesterday in my Loyang. CV tried to attack me 4 times on two brothers in first  2 min as I was the only DD. He registered a single hit and I never saw him even try to attack me the entire game after, by simply doing what I described above. Of course, I was in position where no other ships could hit me, else I would be in trouble

[LittleGreenFriend]

I have recently picked up CVs (after the all the nerfs) and I can perhaps tell you what it feel like on the other side:

CV's don't really have better targets. Dropping any group of ships is basically kamikaze attack, only a lone ship/DD relatively far away from his teammates is a safe target that you can turn around and drop a second time, on top of that exp is rewarded by % damage so it's not that CVs are being mean to DDs or want to be super tryhards, but they don't have a choice.

 

On top of that at least half of the DDs never turn off their AAs, if you see your teammate Shima getting wacked, chances are, he is an idiot and his AA started firing at 5+km. If the stealthier DDs(lower than 3km air detection) turn off their AA, things become very difficult for rocket planes, especially as a CV you don't really want to waste too much time or fighter consumables on attacks that usually do 2~4k dmg a pop.

 

When it comes to countering rocket planes, I don't think there is much a DD can do once it got detected, but going broadside seems still to be the worst choice. If the CV is going to rocket you, just take it in the [edited].

[El2aZeR]

10 minutes ago, Episparh said:

In general you are right but DDs are fast ships also. So CV spots them at 2.Something km and fligh away to get in attack position,

 

Generally it's 2.5-3km, yes.

However pretty much all rocket planes only need 3km distance to attack without boost.

 

And ironically if the CV overshoots you when you were head on, as is usually the case, and you then continue to turn towards the planes you make yourself an ideal target due to your rate of turn + drift vs plane rate of turn, meaning planes will be able to attack you from inside your concealment.

Not to mention the CV can just outright negate your stealth via fighters.

 

Again, how an encounter with CVs ends up is solely dependent on the skill of the CV. What the target does is irrelevant. The only saving grace is that most CV players are s nowadays.

[Episparh]

20 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Generally it's 2.5-3km, yes.

However pretty much all rocket planes only need 3km distance to attack without boost.

So it's close and depends on the reaction time. 

 

22 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

And ironically if the CV overshoots you when you were head on, as is usually the case, and you then continue to turn towards the planes you make yourself an ideal target due to your rate of turn + drift vs plane rate of turn, meaning planes will be able to attack you from inside your concealment.

Not my experience, especially with Shokaku which I currently grind ( unless someone is stupid enough to go close to map border). 

 

24 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Again, how an encounter with CVs ends up is solely dependent on the skill of the CV. What the target does is irrelevant. The only saving grace is that most CV players are s nowadays.

Fully agree on that. However there is specific DD behavior that makes life easier for CVs. 

[Padds01]

55 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Not to mention the CV can just outright negate your stealth via fighters.

 

Again, how an encounter with CVs ends up is solely dependent on the skill of the CV. What the target does is irrelevant. The only saving grace is that most CV players are s nowadays.

 

CV fighters have no HP , even the lowest AA dd can shoot them down before they even deploy , they used to be able to do this , not anymore since thier HP got gutted.

 

i suspect it depends entirely on which side your on , feels to me as a CV player my ability to do things entirely depends on the enemy making mistakes. they have to seperate and go alone. they have to not turn at the right time , heck in the high tiers most BBs can dodge a perfect front back torp broadside after the fish hit the water they are that fast compared to the torps, dive bombers are insanely easy to avoid , ships are way more maneuverable than planes on attack runs in WG universe , just a 30 degree rotation will save you from 90% of hits not to mention throwing off the timing to push them into bounce/overpen  (all stas FMA)

rockets are pretty reliable but even they can often be heavily mitigated, most players simply do not realise how much maneuverabilty the planes loose on attack runs especially on final , there is usually a way to evade most hits.