GUNBOAT: russian vs alternative japanese line

[AlphaBaboon]

Ok here is a pretty common but never ending issue: which is going to be the most effective gunboat line?

I played the Akizuki, and despite I really liked the ship my win rate on her is pretty low and overall average damage leaves something to be desired. Perhaps I did not play the ship correctly, thats true, or maybe it is not the ship for me.
I grinded enough exp to go kitakaze, instead I turned to the russian dd line, and I'm right now at the minsk.

I'm aware I cannot expect having the same damage and overall results I have with my bbs (german line mostly), but still I want to make the gunboating works, because I find it really fun.

 

The point it, my dpm with akizuki was higher, but considering she is as much fast as an iowa and turns slowly like hell I can never get out of bad situations. Sitting in smoke usually ends up with a torp in my [edited]. Furthermore, considering i have decent concealment, I tried to push on caps and often got sink, overall on t10 matches.
With Minsk (which I know its still t7) i do not pretend to be a capper at all, unless in specific cases, and with my insane speed I can often turn away when outgunned. I can hit and run, something it's hard with akizuki and her 33 knots speed.
Only very few matches with her by now, still managed to got decent damage, even more than 100K on a case, without using torps. Get more fires than expected.
It sounds good, maybe, but I'm still unsure.

Looking at the final prize, on the one side I have the Harugumo, with devastating long range torps and 10 100mm guns and acceptable concealment, even if not really great.
On the other side i have the legendary Khaba, which has good reputation with her very high speed, 8 130 mm guns, good armor and even a repair party. I understood she should be played as a light cruiser and forget she's a dd.

Very hard to decide, any hint?

Oh... and now there is the british line, which I never really considered, but the Jutland and Daring looking at stats seem good, in gameplay good performers as well, when faced in the enemy team, I remember.
Don't like the frenchi, never liked the baguette.

[Tyrendian89]

6 minutes ago, EiricBloodgun said:

Khaba, which has good reputation

no it doesnt. It really really doesnt. Grab the Kiev and be done with that line, or maybe continue to Tashkent if you like - they're both better than the Kebab.

Oh, and if you can suffer through the rather mediocre Ognevoi, there are two absolute monsters waiting for you with Udalol and Grozo.

[AlphaBaboon]

3 minuti fa, Tyrendian89 ha scritto:

no it doesnt. It really really doesnt. Grab the Kiev and be done with that line, or maybe continue to Tashkent if you like - they're both better than the Kebab.

Oh, and if you can suffer through the rather mediocre Ognevoi, there are two absolute monsters waiting for you with Udalol and Grozo.

So you are saying that the alternative russian line is better? interesting. I heard it should be more balanced than pure gunboating as it should be khaba.
What do Uda and Grozo have to offer?

[Tyrendian89]

Just now, EiricBloodgun said:

So you are saying that the alternative russian line is better? interesting. I heard it should be more balanced than pure gunboating as it should be khaba.
What do Uda and Grozo have to offer?

I'll just do it slightly differently and give my personal view of the six high tier tech tree RU DDs (ymmv)

 

Ship	Guns	Torps	Conceal	Utility
Kiev	3x2, good range	2x5 8km, meh	bad	heal OR smoke, high HP
Tashkent	3x2, great range	3x3 8km, okay	bad	heal OR smoke, very high HP
Khaba	4x2, crap range	6km. just no.	horrible	heal OR smoke, very high HP
Ognevoi	2x2, good range	2x5 10km, good	good	smoke, defAA, heal
Udaloi	3x2, good range	3x5 8km, okay	bad	smoke, defAA, heal
Grozovoi	3x2 murderguns, okay range	2x5 10km, okay	good	smoke, defAA, heal

 

 

[AlphaBaboon]

2 minuti fa, Tyrendian89 ha scritto:

I'll just do it slightly differently and give my personal view of the six high tier tech tree RU DDs (ymmv)

 

Ship	Guns	Torps	Conceal	Utility
Kiev	3x2, good range	2x5 8km, meh	bad	heal OR smoke, high HP
Tashkent	3x2, great range	3x3 8km, okay	bad	heal OR smoke, very high HP
Khaba	4x2, crap range	6km. just no.	horrible	heal OR smoke, very high HP
Ognevoi	2x2, good range	2x5 10km, good	good	smoke, defAA, heal
Udaloi	3x2, good range	3x5 8km, okay	bad	smoke, defAA, heal
Grozovoi	3x2 murderguns, okay range	2x5 10km, okay	good	smoke, defAA, heal

 

 

Thx for the info mate, thats good. I was surprised to see that the alternative russian line ships can equip either smoke and heal simoultaneously. Is that true? this would not be possible on the khaba.

Range of torps is definitely better in Grozovoi, but what you mean for murder guns? why are they so better than the khaba? thats not something I expected to hear :D

[RenamedUser_92906789]

Problems Khaba has:

- eats full pen from BB AP

- bad stealth

- rudder is crap if you dont take rudder mod

- AFT is mandatory

- either smoke or heal

- focused by CV

- a selfish play style boat

 

Grozo has more to offer, especially to your team.

 

[Tyrendian89]

3 minutes ago, EiricBloodgun said:

Thx for the info mate, thats good. I was surprised to see that the alternative russian line ships can equip either smoke and heal simoultaneously. Is that true? this would not be possible on the khaba.
 

yup - they just have to choose between DefAA and Speedboost (I'd recommend the former, since you're decently fast already... but the usefulness of DefAA does change with every patch nowadays, so....^^).

 

5 minutes ago, EiricBloodgun said:

Range of torps is definitely better in Grozovoi, but what you mean for murder guns? why are they so better than the khaba? thats not something I expected to hear :D

Don't get me wrong, Grozovoi is probably still the second worst torpedoboat at T10 - but at least it's got ten fishes with decent range and sports 6km concealment to actually make use of them.

The guns have slightly better reload than Khaba, so you dont actually fire a lot fewer shells per minute despite one less turret, and the shell velocity and ballistics are fantastic (which also leads to insane AP performance). Again, good concealment really helps here as well. You'll know what I mean when you open up on an unaware broadside Minotaur from stealth and nuke him for easily 6-8k per salvo...

 

If you want the pure gunplay, Kiev or Tashkent are probably still your best bet - but Udaloi and especially Grozovoi offer a lot of extra flexibility while not being that much worse gun wise.

[AlphaBaboon]

3 minuti fa, nambr9 ha scritto:

Problems Khaba has:

- eats full pen from BB AP

- bad stealth

- rudder is crap if you dont take rudder mod

- AFT is mandatory

- either smoke or heal

- focused by CV

- a selfish play style boat

 

Grozo has more to offer, especially to your team.

 

the full pen of BB is what scare me most. as a paradox, the more armor you have the more you do not get overpen and so you end up taking more damage

[AlphaBaboon]

4 minuti fa, Tyrendian89 ha scritto:

yup - they just have to choose between DefAA and Speedboost (I'd recommend the former, since you're decently fast already... but the usefulness of DefAA does change with every patch nowadays, so....^^).

 

Don't get me wrong, Grozovoi is probably still the second worst torpedoboat at T10 - but at least it's got ten fishes with decent range and sports 6km concealment to actually make use of them.

The guns have slightly better reload than Khaba, so you dont actually fire a lot fewer shells per minute despite one less turret, and the shell velocity and ballistics are fantastic (which also leads to insane AP performance). Again, good concealment really helps here as well. You'll know what I mean when you open up on an unaware broadside Minotaur from stealth and nuke him for easily 6-8k per salvo...

 

If you want the pure gunplay, Kiev or Tashkent are probably still your best bet - but Udaloi and especially Grozovoi offer a lot of extra flexibility while not being that much worse gun wise.

Thats pretty clear! Thx man!

But what about the harugumo and japanese alt line? Are we not even considering it? 

[Miessa3]

Basically Khaba is the gunboat for zipping around constantly shooting and dodgetanking. The only correct way to play it is with heal due to her playstyle (rather selfish damagefarming playstyle for a DD). The only bane of the Khaba is that her gunrange and rudder shift being nerfed hard by WG to reduce the Khaba spam so we have a similar situation like with the shima only with guns. As long as you can stay alive at that effective gunrange for most of the battle Khaba is a very neat ship. It's just a question of style of gameplay.

 

Grozovoi is more like the swiss knive. It is (one of?) the ships with the most consumable slots. It brings 5 consumables to battle (though in reduced number) so you actualy have to use the "I" button. It also is known for her very strong AA.

 

Udaloi is a mini Khaba which makes sense as it was the Tier IX in front of Khaba before. WG switched it to the other tree when introduced though because it doesn't actualy fair that well with the pure zipping around playtyle like the khaba. Not like any of the others are like that either but hey WG things.

 

The Harugomo is much more a DD hunter and mostly uses the DPM on other targets when nearby DDs are dealt with and the cap is secure (with some exceptions if good opportunities arise). It also needs IFHE due to having 100mm guns. Harugomo also still eats full BB Pens like Khaba because reasons.

 

Daring is the ship you are looking for if you want to safely dakka in smoke (Hydro - short duration for just quick engagement but in favor for short cooldowns and more charges) and still be relevant for the fight near the cap.

[AlphaBaboon]

26 minuti fa, Miessa3 ha scritto:

Basically Khaba is the gunboat for zipping around constantly shooting and dodgetanking. The only correct way to play it is with heal due to her playstyle (rather selfish damagefarming playstyle for a DD). The only bane of the Khaba is that her gunrange and rudder shift being nerfed hard by WG to reduce the Khaba spam so we have a similar situation like with the shima only with guns. As long as you can stay alive at that effective gunrange for most of the battle Khaba is a very neat ship. It's just a question of style of gameplay.

 

Grozovoi is more like the swiss knive. It is (one of?) the ships with the most consumable slots. It brings 5 consumables to battle (though in reduced number) so you actualy have to use the "I" button. It also is known for her very strong AA.

 

Udaloi is a mini Khaba which makes sense as it was the Tier IX in front of Khaba before. WG switched it to the other tree when introduced though because it doesn't actualy fair that well with the pure zipping around playtyle like the khaba. Not like any of the others are like that either but hey WG things.

 

The Harugomo is much more a DD hunter and mostly uses the DPM on other targets when nearby DDs are dealt with and the cap is secure (with some exceptions if good opportunities arise). It also needs IFHE due to having 100mm guns. Harugomo also still eats full BB Pens like Khaba because reasons.

 

Daring is the ship you are looking for if you want to safely dakka in smoke (Hydro - short duration for just quick engagement but in favor for short cooldowns and more charges) and still be relevant for the fight near the cap.

Thanks man, sounds like that also the daring has some good potential to be expressed. But I feel like im offered to much choice with khaba grozoi haru and then the dearing. How to choose now? :D

[Tyrendian89]

3 minutes ago, EiricBloodgun said:

Thanks man, sounds like that also the daring has some good potential to be expressed. But I feel like im offered to much choice with khaba grozoi haru and then the dearing. How to choose now? :D

I'd say go for the Kiev first and try out how you like that longrange spammy style - especially since you're at the Minsk already.

The others... dunno, if you've got the disc space maybe just download the PTS and try out the other ships there when it's up again? That'd at least give you some idea of what you'd be grinding for...

[Miessa3]

10 minutes ago, EiricBloodgun said:

Thanks man, sounds like that also the daring has some good potential to be expressed. But I feel like im offered to much choice with khaba grozoi haru and then the dearing. How to choose now? :D

Well it really comes down to playstyle.

 

Khaba is full on Dakka rollercoasterride.

Grozovoi is more versatile but still a bit clumsy and visable for actively hunting DDs. With grozovoi you rather want to engange DDs in the later stages when you can play the HP advantage trumpcard due to the heal.

Harugomo invest a lot more into concealment and is so deadly that it actualy can go after DDs without support.

Daring is similar to Harugomo in hunting DDs but gives up some of the the insane DPM of Harugomo guns for Hydro to be safe in the short duration smokes (and general torpedo spotting for teammates) as the hydros last quite long.

[AlphaBaboon]

3 minuti fa, Tyrendian89 ha scritto:

I'd say go for the Kiev first and try out how you like that longrange spammy style - especially since you're at the Minsk already.

The others... dunno, if you've got the disc space maybe just download the PTS and try out the other ships there when it's up again? That'd at least give you some idea of what you'd be grinding for...

I think in fact I'm going Kiev now as a first step and see if the play style fits me and how I will be performing overall.

Then I might decide if sticking onto the Russians or turning to the other lines. As to the Grozo line I still need to understand, since AA apart im not sure I will be doing anything better than in the other nation dd lines.

But thanks for all the info mate really useful. I also checked your account and you have insane stats. So good advice from a good player indeed.

[Tyrendian89]

4 minutes ago, Miessa3 said:

Grozovoi is more versatile but still a bit clumsy and visable for actively hunting DDs

Harugomo invest a lot more into concealment and is so deadly that it actualy can go after DDs without support.

um.... Grozovoi has better concealment than Harugumo.

Also, good luck "hunting after" DDs with something as fat, slow and vulnerable (huge target, no heal) as the Harugumo... sure, you murder anything that picks a fight with you, but if you want to actively go on the hunt, Grozovoi with its speed and durability is your ship. Harugumo's speciality is farming the ever living daylight out of anything that is foolish enough to put itself in front of its guns - and at that it is legitimately unparalleled.

[AlphaBaboon]

3 minuti fa, Miessa3 ha scritto:

Well it really comes down to playstyle.

 

Khaba is full on Dakka rollercoasterride.

Grozovoi is more versatile but still a bit clumsy and visable for actively hunting DDs

Harugomo invest a lot more into concealment and is so deadly that it actualy can go after DDs without support.

Daring is similar to Harugomo in hunting DDs but gives up the insane DPM of Harugomo guns for Hydro to be safe in the short duration smokes.

The real problem in japanese gunboating is that you are (mistakenly) pushed to use your smoke to sit in and start spamming. But without hydro you end up torped to death. 
That being said, having a good hydro covering your back as in the Daring might really gives the upper hand in dealing with enemies when you have dds sticking around.
OFC khaba groz and all russian late tier dd don't and cannot really rely on smoke

[Miessa3]

6 minutes ago, Tyrendian89 said:

um.... Grozovoi has better concealment than Harugumo.

Also, good luck "hunting after" DDs with something as fat, slow and vulnerable (huge target, no heal) as the Harugumo... sure, you murder anything that picks a fight with you, but if you want to actively go on the hunt, Grozovoi with its speed and durability is your ship.

Huh I listed Harugomo a lot higher in the concealment than it apparently is. (I blame Harekaze)

Still the point stands that Haru is more about killing DDs in one go and Grozovoi is about multiple engagements.

Originatly I used hunting DDs more like to differenciate to the Khaba that can't hunt DDs at all because the DDs will usualy see her coming way before they get spotted.

[AlphaBaboon]

2 minuti fa, Miessa3 ha scritto:

Huh I listed Harugomo a lot higher in the concealment than it apparently is. (I blame Harekaze)

Still the point stands that Haru is more about killing DDs in one go and Grozovoi is about multiple engagements.

Well I'm not a fun of dd hunting. Personally I often end up being chased (while chasing) by cruisers or focused by bbs. So it turns that I usually get more damage or equal to that im inflicting to the dd Im focusing, and considering I might have around 20K health pool thats not a lot :D
So I prefer hurting dd only  when I have occasion, but I'd rather go fire killing bbs and trying to citadel broad-sided cruisers, thats mostly my idea when gun boating. Really hard the capping part overall at the start of the match. And with russian dd is madness and almost impossible

[Tyrendian89]

Just now, Miessa3 said:

Huh I listed Harugomo a lot higher in the concealment than it apparently is. (I blame Harekaze)

Still the point stands that Haru is more about killing DDs in one go and Grozovoi is about multiple engagements.

you can also blame the flag it flies if you want... and yeah, Haru doesnt have much competition when it comes to straight up murdering something as quickly as possible. Off the top of my head, I think only a Daring that gets to use its short-fuse AP comes close - and that relies on the target not being too angled.

 

3 minutes ago, EiricBloodgun said:

OFC khaba groz and all russian late tier dd don't and cannot really rely on smoke

thing is, the Grozovoi can actually rely on its smoke when it needs to. Both as an OHSHEET GTFO button when necessary, and as an offensive tool when you find yourself with no HP left - a Khaba with no HP left often doesnt really have any useful options, but a Grozo might still have a smokecharge or two.

[VictorHuge]

@Tyrendian89 do you have/use the Grozovoi legendary upgrade? Is it good/worthwhile?

[Tyrendian89]

1 minute ago, DeleteCVs_VH said:

@Tyrendian89 do you have/use the Grozovoi legendary upgrade? Is it good/worthwhile?

is it good? yeah I'd say so

is it mandatory/does it change how the ship feels like the Zao one does? nope. just a little bit more dakka.

I actually decided against using it in CBs a few seasons ago because I felt like I also wanted my torps up, so the little bit of extra gun power compared to the regular reload mod wasnt worth it in that specific case. Not that I'd argue with anyone that wants to run it in competitive - depends entirely on your personal preference I'd say...

[AlphaBaboon]

11 minuti fa, Tyrendian89 ha scritto:

you can also blame the flag it flies if you want... and yeah, Haru doesnt have much competition when it comes to straight up murdering something as quickly as possible. Off the top of my head, I think only a Daring that gets to use its short-fuse AP comes close - and that relies on the target not being too angled.

 

thing is, the Grozovoi can actually rely on its smoke when it needs to. Both as an OHSHEET GTFO button when necessary, and as an offensive tool when you find yourself with no HP left - a Khaba with no HP left often doesnt really have any useful options, but a Grozo might still have a smokecharge or two.

The fact I noticed in idling in smoke while spamming is that I often end up torped, thats what happened in my Aki... and I believe this might happen in all dd not benefiting from hydro. So germans and british dd should be safe in this.
Probably thats true, at mid or end of the battle, when you or other teammates have already cleaned the area from other annoying dds or torp-focused cruisers.
Well on khaba there is no smoke if you choose repair party, which would be the most smart idea considering the ship I suppose

[FishDogFoodShack]

Khaba is p much irrelevant at this point.

[RenamedUser_92906789]

You guys convinced me that I have to dust off and play Khaba tonight ;)

[AlphaBaboon]

9 minuti fa, nambr9 ha scritto:

You guys convinced me that I have to dust off and play Khaba tonight ;)

Well boy, I saw several videos where Khaba scored and insane damage only using guns, although not very recent. So you may get the little bastard working well :)