new sheriff in town soon? edit: SAP + fuel smoke

[MrWastee]

so, as i do not see any discussion about it in here i thought i might simply open it. coz, at least to me from what i read, there's need for discussion for sure ^^ ....

 

i'm talking about the new semi-armor-piercing shells and full-throttle-smoke generator of the 1st italian line ingame.

https://forum.worldofwarships.eu/topic/121317-st-new-ships-italians-cruisers/

 

 

On 7/23/2019 at 3:30 PM, _Weikath_ said:

[...]

Italian cruisers have special consumable "Fuel Smokes", unique ammunition - semi-armor piercing shells, good maneuverability and a high salvo weight with long reload time.

 

Semi-armor piercing shells have the features of two types of shells at once:

• Semi-armor piercing shells can ricochet, but the angles of the ricochet are more comfortable than those of armor piercing shells (60-85°);
• For semi-armor piercing shells, the 14.3-caliber rule will apply;
• If the ricochet does not happen, the mechanics of semi-armor piercing shells is similar to high explosive ones;
• Semi-armor piercing shells don't have over penetrations;
• Can't cause a fire;
• Damage and penetration is better than high explosive shells;
• Semi-armor piercing shells deal only 10% of their damage to destroyers.

 

Semi-armor piercing shells are designed to deal stable high damage when armor piercing shells are not effective.

Fuel smokes are almost similar to a usual smoke generator, but a ship equipped with fuel smokes is able to be concealed at full speed. Therefore, Italian cruisers will be able to hide from enemy ships or aircraft, without sacrificing speed and the ability to maneuver. Fuel smokes last from 25 to 40 seconds and disperse in 10 seconds.

 

[...]

 

Please note that the information in the Development Blog is preliminary.

 

...so, let's get it all together:

- game has stealth firing on release

- stealth firing bad, let's remove

- introduce fuel-smoke for stealth firing at max speed (as it used to be before, but now u can go on steroids...........)

 

 

- ap has too many overpens

- he needs ifhe in many cases to be really effective against armored targets

- let's introduce moar uber-armor bb's and supercruisers

- introduce semi-ap with the best of both worlds... no overpens (lol), better dmg and pen than he and ofc better ricochet angles...... sounds like something hard to counter.......

 

 

am i the only one thinking lines like "SSSTTTAAAAAHHHPPPP IIIITTTT WEEEEEEEEEEEEEGEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!111!111!!111111!!!!!1.....!"?!?!

[pra3y]

The smoke active time is short and the gun reload time of the CAs are long, so doesnt it balance out? 

[CptBarney]

Dunno, the italian cruisers seem like giant citadels too be honest even more so than your usual cruiser.

 

I guess the tier 10 has noticable armour but in general they seem very lackluster.

[Redcap375]

I just look at it as more gimmicks WG are throwing out. Another step to leaving the game.  One of our oldest Officers has had enough because of it all (talking after CB's last night).  It's turned into who has the best gimmick and how quick you can grind it to stay competitive. 

 

Things like the Russian BB line being far too strong in nearly everyway and every tier.  We had a good chat about how the game has changed soooo much as both have been in it from the start. 

 

Gimmicks have already killed the game.  So much powercreep, gimmicks and too strong ships going on it's a joke. CV rework has been an utter mess.

 

40 Secs in smoke at full speed with SAP? yeah....Might as well torp rush the ship at the same time, is not like he will see me coming.  And WG will alter SAP to make it worth the grind, i will tell you that right now. 

[Exocet6951]

10 minutes ago, MrWastee said:

 

- introduce semi-ap with the best of both worlds... no overpens (lol), better dmg and pen than he and ofc better ricochet angles...... sounds like something hard to counter......

 

Considering that sap currently has roughly the same penetration as German HE, but without the fire chance and can actually ricochet, you're actually getting the worst of both worlds right now. 

 

You counter it by doing literally nothing, because the shells do less damage on average than HE, and won't set you on fire, while the ships have catastrophically bad dpm. 

[loppantorkel]

I don't see the new type of smoke causing much issues. They'll be able to adjust it if necessary.

 

SAP introduces another level of complexity to the game, just like IFHE did when introduced. I think that WG will getting into more and more issues when balancing the game with each newly introduced mechanic. Players will have trouble keeping up with all mechanics and quick fixes to rebalance the game, and the game as a whole will just keep getting harder for new players to get into. I know WG is accused for dumbing the game down, but there's another side to this. They need to keep the game intuitive for it to stay alive.

[MrWastee]

16 minutes ago, pra3y said:

The smoke active time is short and the gun reload time of the CAs are long, so doesnt it balance out? 

might be. on the other hand it opens the door to buff per reload booster (gimmicks, yay) or in any other way. it more is about the thing itself being there so to say.

 

15 minutes ago, CptBarney said:

Dunno, the italian cruisers seem like giant citadels too be honest even more so than your usual cruiser.

 

I guess the tier 10 has noticable armour but in general they seem very lackluster.

tbh, i didnt check really. to me it's more about the simple fact itself, not about how they plan to balance it out.

 

14 minutes ago, Redcap375 said:

I just look at it as more gimmicks WG are throwing out. Another step to leaving the game.  One of our oldest Officers has had enough because of it all (talking after CB's last night).  It's turned into who has the best gimmick and how quick you can grind it to stay competitive. 

 

Things like the Russian BB line being far too strong in nearly everyway and every tier.  We had a good chat about how the game has changed soooo much as both have been in it from the start. 

 

Gimmicks have already killed the game.  So much powercreep, gimmicks and too strong ships going on it's a joke. CV rework has been an utter mess.

 

40 Secs in smoke at full speed with SAP? yeah....Might as well torp rush the ship at the same time, is not like he will see me coming.  And WG will alter SAP to make it worth the grind, i will tell you that right now. 

^ this.

 

9 minutes ago, Exocet6951 said:

 

Considering that sap currently has roughly the same penetration as German HE, but without the fire chance and can actually ricochet, you're actually getting the worst of both worlds right now. 

 

You counter it by doing literally nothing, because the shells do less damage on average than HE, and won't set you on fire, while the ships have catastrophically bad dpm. 

if so it does not fit the description in the dev-blog, so the image they got in mind themselves.

 

6 minutes ago, loppantorkel said:

I don't see the new type of smoke causing much issues. They'll be able to adjust it if necessary.

 

SAP introduces another level of complexity to the game, just like IFHE did when introduced. I think that WG will getting into more and more issues when balancing the game with each newly introduced mechanic. Players will have trouble keeping up with all mechanics and quick fixes to rebalance the game, and the game as a whole will just keep getting harder for new players to get into. I know WG is accused for dumbing the game down, but there's another side to this. They need to keep the game intuitive for it to stay alive.

... we clearly disagree here, simply coz to me it's hell of an issue ;D.... smoking up on full speed, being able to do everything while zipping around like klingon bird of prey so to say?

i mean, just imagine it. kiting position on midrange u have like nothing to fear. good speed, good handling, meehish torps but they're there, sap..... sounds like something close to chuck norris to me ^^.

[BanzaiPiluso]

This smoke will be used to turn around and create distance and avoid strikes to a exposed citadel.

 

My only issue with this new line is that is very particular and you will want specialized players.

[Redcap375]

2 minutes ago, loppantorkel said:

I don't the new type of smoke will cause much issues. They'll be able to adjust it if necessary.

 

SAP introduces another level of complexity to the game, just like IFHE did when introduced. I think that WG will getting into more and more issues when balancing the game with each newly introduced mechanic. Players will have trouble keeping up with all mechanics and quick fixes to rebalance the game, and the game as a whole will just keep getting harder for new players to get into. I know WG is accused for dumbing the game down, but there's another side to this. They need to keep the game intuitive for it to stay alive.

 

There is currently a HUGE gap between good players and bad ones.  Just look at MM monitor?  You can 90% tell who is going to win the game before it even starts.  I got rid of it because it was so depressing when I had nothing but chancers on my team. 

 

Bad ones are massively in the majority which has been evident for the last 1-2 years. They haven't got a clue what is going on, what their ship does and what can counter what.  It's like lambs to the slaughter. 

 

I've seen Shimmy players pushing smoke against a Z-52, i've seen Battleship players just sail broadside to everything thinking it's the right thing to do ect....

 

And when i try to understand what is going through their head, i get chat banned. 

 

Its was never like is.  The more stuff WG crams in, the worst it will get. 

 

Oh those that are very good will love it, farming sleeping sheep, but it's not healthily for the game.

[ReapingKnight]

Stealth firing isn't what OP says it is, it was when a DD could fire at a BB for example in open water in line if sight without being spotted, it was fixed with the gun bloom and has nothing to do with smoke.

 

The CA will still need someone spotting to see anything...

[MrWastee]

2 minutes ago, ReapingKnight said:

Stealth firing isn't what OP says it is, it was when a DD could fire at a BB for example in open water in line if sight without being spotted, it was fixed with the gun bloom and has nothing to do with smoke.

 

The CA will still need someone spotting to see anything...

eeermmm... yeah, i know? where did i say former stealth firing was connected to smoke?!

 

the effect now just is like almost the same for smokes duration, and thats what it is about.....

[loppantorkel]

17 minutes ago, MrWastee said:

... we clearly disagree here, simply coz to me it's hell of an issue ;D.... smoking up on full speed, being able to do everything while zipping around like klingon bird of prey so to say?

i mean, just imagine it. kiting position on midrange u have like nothing to fear. good speed, good handling, meehish torps but they're there, sap..... sounds like something close to chuck norris to me ^^.

But is this a kiting ship? Slow reload and no HE. As I take it, this ship is supposed to move in, get a good strike and get away. It got 3 smokes with long cd. It got a huge citadel with poor armour. This smoke is supposed to let you move in without getting instantly blapped. It doesn't seem very concerning or game breaking.

 

If it doesn't work like this or the smoke is too strong, it will be easy to nerf it. No, I don't see much issues with the smoke. SAP is more concerning just because of the increased complexity and balancing issues it will bring.

[OldschoolGaming_YouTube]

I is probably to soon to tell, havent seen anything on Youtube yet so I guess its still NDA.

 

One of the first thing I though about was the troll/edited* divisions by CR33D Flambass, Trenlass and RoughMonkey that probably do a 2x ITA cruisers and a Mino division pushing up mid on Two brothers or something just for shits and giggles.

 

Edit: Language please

[BLUB__BLUB]

10 minutes ago, OldschoolGaming_YouTube said:

One of the first thing I though about was the troll/cancer divisions by CR33D Flambass, Trenlass and RoughMonkey that probably do a 2x ITA cruisers and a Mino division pushing up mid on Two brothers or something just for shits and giggles.

Actually that might be a good test. If he doesn;t manage it, it's definately not to strong. 

[Prospect_b]

37 minutes ago, Redcap375 said:

 

There is currently a HUGE gap between good players and bad ones.  Just look at MM monitor?  You can 90% tell who is going to win the game before it even starts.  I got rid of it because it was so depressing when I had nothing but chancers on my team. 

I got rid of it more than a year ago for the same reason. Doesn't matter that much to be fair, cause even without it you can see it after a few minutes in the game, be it cause afk dds, or all dds dead, grandiose massive lemming, massive cv skill gap (you know, the one the cv rework solved...), etc

 

Even though the game still may last ten minutes longer, it is decided extremely fast. We've gone completely World of tanks now (including ships with autoloader, sidescraping BBs, etc)

[KillStealBoss]

40 sec of such kind of smoke isn't a big issue. 

[Redcap375]

We have a player in our clan, a really nice bloke with a good sense of humour.  Didn't really play that many games with him as he does Solo more often that not, a few divs here and there. 

 

He's grinding the RN cruiser line (because he's British), doesn't have premium and doesn't by premium ships.  A casual player.

 

He is now at the Neptune so tier 9 and he still hasn't got a clue what he is doing.  He is constantly asking "What should i do now", smokes when he doesn't need to, doesn't smoke when he DOES need to. 

 

He's not sure what range to engage at and when asked to "Sector his AA" he said "how do you do that?"

 

We were losing this one game and i was digging out bind in my Simms against 2 DDs and a Crusier.  He was happly sailing on the other side of the rocks not really knowing what was going on.  When i kindly asked him "how much damage you done mate?", he honestly replied "0". This was half way through the game. All because he didn't really know what he was doing to be honest and when to and when not to open fire. 

 

He even said he struggles to hit DD's! Lol, what a lad ay... And hes playing a CL. 

 

So...

 

Hes at tier 9 and still doesn't know how to sector his AA, he even asked which button to press.....Yep, which button.  That is the gods honest truth.

 

Now is it his fault? Well yes and no.  Yes because like anything, if you wanna get good you learn how to but via different sources (Youtube, Stats ect). But also no because there is so much stuff to remember, some people just cant take it all in. Not only that but there are no guides or anything.  Remember RST CV's were around for how long and they never produced a guide how to play them. 

 

I'm no spring chicken but i've still got the reflexes to give people a good slapping, because i have the knowledge gained over the years. But even i'm struggling to cram everything in with different ships, Ammo, Gimmicks and such.  

 

p.s. Not a dig at a fellow Clan player and i'm sure he would agree and see the funny side from his point of view.   But if your on his team, there isnt anything funny about it i'm afraid. 

 

 

 

 

[Redcap375]

17 minutes ago, Saiyko said:

I got rid of it more than a year ago for the same reason. Doesn't matter that much to be fair, cause even without it you can see it after a few minutes in the game, be it cause afk dds, or all dds dead, grandiose massive lemming, massive cv skill gap (you know, the one the cv rework solved...), etc

 

Even though the game still may last ten minutes longer, it is decided extremely fast. We've gone completely World of tanks now (including ships with autoloader, sidescraping BBs, etc)

 

Completely agree, 100%.

 

Even when your on the much better team i still feel sorry for the enemy.  I feel their pain basically. 

 

But people will put it down to "sometimes your on that team, sometimes your not" but that still doesn't make it fundamentally right. 

 

We had 3 OMNI players on my team, as well as my own CG Div with solid players.  What chance did the enemy team have? Not one chance and we lost 1 ship (DD) the whole game. Complete white wash. 

 

What the MM should have done, was split the 2 divs up.  Yeah we are playing against OMNI, so what, but at least the enemy team would have some hope of winning. 

 

But anyway, that the same topic that WG avoids like the plague.

[MrWastee]

1 hour ago, loppantorkel said:

But is this a kiting ship? Slow reload and no HE. As I take it, this ship is supposed to move in, get a good strike and get away. It got 3 smokes with long cd. It got a huge citadel with poor armour. This smoke is supposed to let you move in without getting instantly blapped. It doesn't seem very concerning or game breaking.

 

If it doesn't work like this or the smoke is too strong, it will be easy to nerf it. No, I don't see much issues with the smoke. SAP is more concerning just because of the increased complexity and balancing issues it will bring.

 

just to be precise:

 

i'm not opened this to have a discussion on italian line in whole, i'm talking the concept of sap and fuel-smoke here! i do not knw about the armor or how the ships will work out. but for sure i'm concerned on the concept of this 2 additions as decribed in that dev-blog.

it wouldn't be the first time they introduve gimmicks on meeh line, just to bring something out totally over the top here and there. no matter if with buffs to silvers or op prems...

 

idc about the ships in this regard, i'm concerned about the conceptional guess behind these 2 additions. hope that's clear now....

[Taliesn]

1 hour ago, Redcap375 said:

I just look at it as more gimmicks WG are throwing out. Another step to leaving the game.  One of our oldest Officers has had enough because of it all (talking after CB's last night).  It's turned into who has the best gimmick and how quick you can grind it to stay competitive. 

 

Things like the Russian BB line being far too strong in nearly everyway and every tier.  We had a good chat about how the game has changed soooo much as both have been in it from the start. 

 

Gimmicks have already killed the game.  So much powercreep, gimmicks and too strong ships going on it's a joke. CV rework has been an utter mess.

 

40 Secs in smoke at full speed with SAP? yeah....Might as well torp rush the ship at the same time, is not like he will see me coming.  And WG will alter SAP to make it worth the grind, i will tell you that right now. 

 

I don't mind gimmicks per se, there is a limit to what you can do with so many ship lines and powercreep doesn't usually come from gimmicks but armor and guns.

 

The bit in bold, and from a position of total ignorance, would the smoke firing detectability thing not come into play if you charge someone and become detectable at 8 or 9km for example? 3 slow torps are hardly going to make it if you approach without using your guns.

 

[Panocek]

1 hour ago, loppantorkel said:

They'll be able to adjust it if necessary.

Obviously they will buff it to make it interesting if not straight up broken, then they will nerf the crap out of it. After all, they are changing consumable not the ships

 

47 minutes ago, Redcap375 said:

smokes when he doesn't need to, doesn't smoke when he DOES need to.

Smokes are bad for your health m8

 

47 minutes ago, Redcap375 said:

He even said he struggles to hit DD's! Lol, what a lad ay... And hes playing a CL. 

Brit CL ballistics are comparable to US CLs, so he's not wrong there.

[nimlock]

No need to guess where the dude is in smoke. Ez blind-fire salvos to the rescue. And manually aimed skill torpedoes without the guideline nonesense for the win!

[Redcap375]

Just now, Panocek said:

Brit CL ballistics are comparable to US CLs, so he's not wrong there.

 

So are you gonna tell him to hit nothing but slow moving BB targets only, hoping that he hits nothing but superstructures?

 

I see plenty of Minos (including mysef) murder in cold blood DD's.  Nothing wrong with arcs there. 

 

That is a simple case of "Leading targets".  So it's a skill thingy. 

[Redcap375]

1 minute ago, nimlock said:

No need to guess where the dude is in smoke. Ez blind-fire salvos to the rescue. And manually aimed skill torpedoes without the guideline nonesense for the win!

 

Hydro says no...

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

Im not worried