Overperforming Daring

[loppantorkel]

Daring may be a bit OP compared to the other dds, at least it feels like the 'standard dd' of choice. Without checking the recent stats, I'd guess it mostly outperforms dds like Gearing, YY and Z-52. So, knowing the routine at WG, I think it's safe to presume the nerfhammer is being prepared, but before the announcement has been made - is nerfing the Daring the correct solution?

 

If they nerf the concealment 200 meters or so, the survivability of the other dds will increase, but that will also remove much of the effectiveness in the primary role of Daring. We'll end up with another dd that is barely adequate.

 

I've got another solution - Buff the Gearing, YY and Z-52 instead and leave Daring for now.

I've heard it mentioned a number of times here on the forum - the Gearing model is wrong - if they fix it so it sit lower in the water, the survivability is increased. Could be enough.

YY: I know this may be a no-no, but consider giving it smoke and radar simultaneously. Might be too strong, but given the nerf to the guns and the weak radar, I think it could be something to try. This rather than buffing torps or guns again.

Z-52: Idk. Maybe make it tankier?

 

Any thoughts or other ideas?

 

edit:

Another buff to dds that have been powercrept: IJN torp dds - with their torp reload boost instead of smoke. Pretty decent option. However, it's also pretty risky to opt for that considering cvs every other game. It is playable with cvs in game, but if the opposing team and cv are decent is decent, you're in for a tough game.

 

How about making IJN torp dds un-spottable by planes as another trait? Would also decrease survivability of cvs somewhat and keep them on their toes.

[DFens_666]

WG will probably do both: Nerf Daring while buffing all others... just look at the Cruisers, when they nerfed Hindenburg but buffed the direct competition called HIV and Zao. Then Buff Hindi again... and again.... instead of reversing the initial nerf

 

As for YY: Id rather not have a ship with Smoke and Radar, would make it probably too strong in CBs.

[loppantorkel]

8 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

As for YY: Id rather not have a ship with Smoke and Radar, would make it probably too strong in CBs.

It probably would be the dd of choice again, but there's always one that's better than the rest in CBs. They'd unlikely to cause much disturbance to the current CB meta, just replace the current dd. Making these dds more viable/versatile and differentiated in Random games is more important, imo. How often do you encounter a radar YY in Random games now?

 

edit: Although, I'm not arguing this should be done.. merely a suggestion how to make the YY more interesting again, and ofc test it first.

edit2: what's it got - three 7.5km radars per game..? I don't remember the duration. I know Black has some good stats, but unless the player is good, it doesn't appear to be too strong. I could be wrong here though.

[Redcap375]

35 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

WG will probably do both: Nerf Daring while buffing all others... just look at the Cruisers, when they nerfed Hindenburg but buffed the direct competition called HIV and Zao. Then Buff Hindi again... and again.... instead of reversing the initial nerf

 

As for YY: Id rather not have a ship with Smoke and Radar, would make it probably too strong in CBs.

This ^^ with both points.  WG history of screw ups and the YY would be sooooo strong with smoke and radar in CB's and radoms.

 

The hardest opponent to fight against as a DD is a Daring no doubt.  Currently at the Lighting and it's alright, just not a fan of the slow reload. 

 

However, playing any DD to it's strengths will win you the day. People forget that the Daring loves to throw out AP so simply angle against it? Muppets forget and get deleted quickly.

 

It's shells are sooo floaty so simply keep him at arms lengths.  I find that's the best way to deal with them in my Groz anyway. 

 

All of them have pro's and con's. We just gonna use them correctly. 

 

However, having a gunboat with that low concealment was crazy from the start, well played WG again *slow clap*.  Gunboats should always have higher concealment, but that's common sense isn't it? 

[Hummus]

Nobody wants the YY to have smoke and radar.

The smoke + radar combo is toxic and should be avoided at all costs.

If they want to buff the YY they can just "tweak" the DPM or torp reload again ..... removing 25% was stupid anyway.

Also the YY is "not underperforming" according to the WG staff I heard.

 

I don't think the Daring is very OP or overperforming. It feels like a boat that leverages skill, so high skill players will do very good at it. Wait until the masses get their hands on it and it should drop off.

(it's not particularly quick or extremely sneaky .... it's very good at a very specific circumstance. But if you keep away from those circumstances it's just another DD...)

[BlackYeti]

Let's wait for the IFHE change, it might just be enough to bring the daring in line with others in terms of performance.

[fumtu]

1 hour ago, loppantorkel said:

Daring may be a bit OP compared to the other dds, at least it feels like the 'standard dd' of choice. Without checking the recent stats, I'd guess it mostly outperforms dds like Gearing, YY and Z-52. So, knowing the routine at WG, I think it's safe to presume the nerfhammer is being prepared, but before the announcement has been made - is nerfing the Daring the correct solution?

 

If they nerf the concealment 200 meters or so, the survivability of the other dds will increase, but that will also remove much of the effectiveness in the primary role of Daring. We'll end up with another dd that is barely adequate.

 

Well S_O admitted in on of QA that Daring is overperforming, not as much as YY was by mighty spreadsheet but that they are not that much worried about that but they keep it in watch. If they nerf it I expect it would rather be a small nerf to RoF then concealment. Just like Jutland and Grozo were nerfed recently.

 

Quote

I've got another solution - Buff the Gearing, YY and Z-52 instead and leave Daring for now.

 

YY would probably not be buffed any time soon. Buffing them to bring them closer to Daring also would not happen. Buffing them to bring them to what WG consider acceptable performance could happen but question is what WG consider as acceptable performance for any of those ships.

 

Quote

I've heard it mentioned a number of times here on the forum - the Gearing model is wrong - if they fix it so it sit lower in the water, the survivability is increased. Could be enough.

 

Yes, Gearing model is bad. It is too wide, and it sits too high in the water. And it is ugly and desperately need update. But I doubt it would be updated unless WG decide to use Gearing on any other line or make premium Gearing.

 

Quote

YY: I know this may be a no-no, but consider giving it smoke and radar simultaneously. Might be too strong, but given the nerf to the guns and the weak radar, I think it could be something to try. This rather than buffing torps or guns again.

 

1 hour ago, loppantorkel said:

How often do you encounter a radar YY in Random games now?

 

Only reason that is less YY in random games now are CVs. But I played a lot of radar YY in Ranked and I know how strong it was. Give it both smoke and radar is definite no. Belfast and Black are already two ships too many that have this combo. Please, no radar/smoke combo ever on any ship again.

 

[ollonborre]

I think the overall problem with the Daring (and let's be honest the Grozovoi to an extent aswell) is the amount of stuff jammed into its kit. 360 degree turrets, long lasting Hydro, smokes on demand, accelleration module built in, heal, short fuse AP, decent enough torpedoes and with IFHE it melts angled DD's.

 

Maybe the IFHE change is enough to bring it line but honestly I rather see that they sort out the other not so healthy DD's first before hacking away at the Daring.

[fumtu]

3 minutes ago, BlackYeti said:

Let's wait for the IFHE change, it might just be enough to bring the daring in line with others in terms of performance.

 

Depending on how penetration value would be calculated, Daring might get even stronger with this change if it ends to be able to pen 19mm without IFHE. As her HE pen is 18.83mm if its first rounded and then applied it would be able to pen 19mm and would not require IFHE and you have 4 pts for other captain skills and better fire chance, if not then it will still require IFHE and everything stays the same. Now even with IFHE, Daring could not pass any threshold except 19mm of amour and change to IFHE would not change this. Only thing is that after the change, Daring will have a somewhat more targets for its HE as all CLs should get 16mm bow and stern armour. 

[Pikachu_Lv32]

Give it a month and you'll be replacing nerf Daring with nerf Kleber. 

[fumtu]

3 minutes ago, ollonborre said:

I think the overall problem with the Daring (and let's be honest the Grozovoi to an extent aswell) is the amount of stuff jammed into its kit. 360 degree turrets, long lasting Hydro, smokes on demand, accelleration module built in, heal, short fuse AP, decent enough torpedoes and with IFHE it melts angled DD's.

 

On the other hand it is slow, no Spood Beast, it is big, and it need IFHE to deal any damage with HE and 19mm is the only armour it could pen even with IFHE. Well technically it pens 24mm but for the game it only effect DDs and supestructures as 19mm is the there is nothing else bellow 25mm of armour except that. 

[nimlock]

Will most likely get a base speed nerf becomming the slowest DD to still haw it's heal. Might ewen lower the water line that it would soak more rng hits.

[loppantorkel]

16 minutes ago, Taffia_ said:

Give it a month and you'll be replacing nerf Daring with nerf Kleber. 

Care to elaborate?

[Pikachu_Lv32]

7 minutes ago, loppantorkel said:

Care to elaborate?

In a month's time you'll be moaning about the new T10 DD because like with the daring you fail to note or find the capacity to abuse it's weaknesses when playing against it. Which are noted above by others. Its slow, a thick boy for AP and it has a fairly high detection compared to any DD that it can out gun bar the z52 on raw DPM, but she can smoke hydro and delete a Daring or any DD once spotted by any DD contesting a cap. This weakness also makes it possible to keep it perma spotted in a legendary mod gearing, shima or YY as it can't out run any T10 DD. Enabling your whole team to farm away as he tries in vain hunt you down. 

[loppantorkel]

11 minutes ago, Taffia_ said:

In a month's time you'll be moaning about the new T10 DD because like with the daring you fail to note or find the capacity to abuse it's weaknesses when playing against it. Which are noted above by others. Its slow, a thick boy for AP and it has a fairly high detection compared to any DD that it can out gun bar the z52 on raw DPM, but she can smoke hydro and delete a Daring or any DD once spotted by any DD contesting a cap. This weakness also makes it possible to keep it perma spotted in a legendary mod gearing, shima or YY as it can't out run any T10 DD. Enabling your whole team to farm away as he tries in vain hunt you down. 

So, did you not read the OP or is it your ability to comprehend things that fail you?

[Pikachu_Lv32]

26 minutes ago, loppantorkel said:

So, did you not read the OP or is it your ability to comprehend things that fail you?

I clearly did but you get on that rocking horse. Look forward to your post in months time for the Kleber. Maybe you'll LTP by then. Fingers crossed 🤞 

[LemonadeWarriorITA]

I'd say removal of the repair party for the T9 and T10.

Nerf of hydro ship detection range from 3km to 2km for all RN DDs.

 

[thisismalacoda]

I think the safer, easier to monitor - and easier to reverse - balancing approach is to modify one ship, not three or four at the same time.

 

Even if people then feel, DDs as a class still underperform at tier 10, looking at general game mechanics might be more conductive than buffing (almost) all ships individually. Instead shave off one or two seconds of radar, nerf CV rockets or raise flooding damage again.

[fumtu]

44 minutes ago, LemonadeWarrior said:

Nerf of hydro ship detection range from 3km to 2km for all RN DDs.

 

What? You know that assured detection range is already 2km, no mater if there is a smoke or island or anything that block the vision, right? So what would be a purpose of the hydro that detect ship at the same moment that you detect it visually? And if 3km ship detection hydro is a problem to you than you have a problem with your gameplay not with RN DD.

[LemonadeWarriorITA]

Just now, fumtu said:

 

What? You know that assured detection range is already 2km, no mater if there is a smoke or island or anything that block the vision, right? So what would be a purpose of the hydro that detect ship at the same moment that you detect it visually? And if 3km ship detection hydro is a problem to you than you have a problem with your gameplay not with RN DD.

I do know. The hydro will be solely for spotting torpedoes in that case. So it can't be used as a defense or attack against other ships. The RN DDs don't need the 3km ship detection, they are already good enough.

[loppantorkel]

 

2 hours ago, Taffia_ said:

Give it a month and you'll be replacing nerf Daring with nerf Kleber. 

 

1 hour ago, Taffia_ said:

I clearly did but you get on that rocking horse. Look forward to your post in months time for the Kleber. Maybe you'll LTP by then. Fingers crossed 🤞 

lol... what would I be posting about Kleber? I haven't suggested a nerf to Daring.. and what about me ltp? Such a cocky guy. Have I offended you at some point? Your stats really don't back up that overconfidence of yours. You do know that Daring is somewhat overperforming..?

 

I suggest you try a bit harder when attempting to understand subjects and arguments. You've got some progress to make.

[KillStealBoss]

Ooh ofc. The CV topic is done. Now the whiners began to whine about Daring. 

[LemonadeWarriorITA]

4 hours ago, Taffia_ said:

In a month's time you'll be moaning about the new T10 DD because like with the daring you fail to note or find the capacity to abuse it's weaknesses when playing against it. Which are noted above by others. Its slow, a thick boy for AP and it has a fairly high detection compared to any DD that it can out gun bar the z52 on raw DPM, but she can smoke hydro and delete a Daring or any DD once spotted by any DD contesting a cap. This weakness also makes it possible to keep it perma spotted in a legendary mod gearing, shima or YY as it can't out run any T10 DD. Enabling your whole team to farm away as he tries in vain hunt you down. 

Meh, her weakness is mostly countered by having always smokes ready.

[LemonadeWarriorITA]

28 minutes ago, MacArthur92 said:

Ooh ofc. The CV topic is done. Now the whiners began to whine about Daring. 

If we only had a balance department, right? Than these “whining” topics wouldn’t be necessary.

[loppantorkel]

44 minutes ago, MacArthur92 said:

Ooh ofc. The CV topic is done. Now the whiners began to whine about Daring. 

Please show me the whine and quit the knee-jerking.