Graf Zeppelin Dive Bombers needs to be changed.

[Elektroboot]

1. Reasons why Graf Zeppelin dive bombers need to be changed.

• Ta-152 a high altitude interceptor fighter is non-sensical for the dive bomber role for naval engagement since this fighter isn't designed for low altitude engagements.
• The Ta-152 loadout with 1x PD 500 AP bomb and size of attacking flight being only 2 planes, dealing in maximum 14,000 potential damage if you manage to hit both bombs in the citadel is the lowest potential damage in-game for dive bombers even Langley's HE bombs have higher potential damage with their two bombs being 14,600 potential damage at Tier IV.
• Ta-152 with 1x PD 500 AP bomb suffers the worst accuracy to hit in-game with their size of attacking flight being only 2 planes being tied with other Tier IV Carriers with similar size of attacking flight of being two planes per drop and having payload being only one bomb, while Graf Zeppelin is supposed to be a T8 carrier and should be balanced by its piers at same tier, Enterprise, Kaga, Saipan etc. Enterprise respectably having the size of attacking flight being 3 planes with having 2 bombs each respectably increasing its accuracy to hit and potential to do 35,400 maximum potential damage. More than twice Graf Zeppelin could possibly do with a single drop.
• Ta-152 suffers the worst dive-bombing run I seen in the game. It requires a player with a high skill ceiling to able to take advantage of the angle of the bomb drop effectively. The bombs only drop directly down if you drop them early as possible when the bombing reticle appears this is when piercing battleships with strong deck armor is possible which is highly unreliable due to the bombs dropping very early and the accuracy suffers but it's the only way to get the optimal angle for the bombs to pierce..
• Ta-152 was designed by Wargaming to be a divebomber but it performs best as a horizontal bomber like the RN Horizontal bombers. Best result using these dive bombers is to side bomb cruisers with big side citadels but you sacrifice velocity to able to pierce in the last second of the run and have a chance to hit the torpedo belt which is highly armored, still being highly unreliable despise using it optimally.
• False advertisement, this cannot be pointed enough that Wargaming used Ju-87 Stukas in promoting the Graf Zeppelin but they never managed to be added due to the poor excuse of the Stukas being too slow to be viable for the dive bomber role in Tier 8, while a carrier like the Enterprise that use dive bombers that fly at similar speeds like the SB2C helldive but still are highly successful despite being slow.
• Graf Zeppelin currently sits at 48% winrate average being the least effective CV in the game at Tier 8.

 

Suggestion 1. Bringing back the Ju-87 Stuka and use regular AP bombs.

• Majority of Graf Zeppelin owners want it back, the plane was highly iconic during the second world war and Wargaming put already lot of resources on making it, it wouldn't require more of wargaming money to use already made assets.
• Speed is useless if the weapon that is used isn't reliable, the Ju-87 in the second world war was a very reliable close air support plane that could dive and pull up in very steep vertical dives, perfect for naval bombing.
• It was already planned to be used for the real Graf Zeppelin for historical reasons it should be with the carrier.
• The SB2C helldiver that the T8 Enterprise uses flies at 160 knots which would practically be the same speed that the Ju-87 would fly in-game. Yet the SB2C helldiver on the Enterprise is the most successful dive bomber in T8 despite being slow. The argument of Stukas being too slow to be used in-game is completely false.

 

Suggestion 2. Change the existing dive bombers into horizontal bombers.

Option 1. PC RS 1000-500 series, Rocket-Assisted Anti-Shipment Bomb.

• Rocket Assisted Anti-Shipment Bombs was a short term project used during 1941 in the Mediterranean sea funded by Rhein Metal to sink allied ships, the project lasted till 1942 April and saw continuous anti-shipping action until the project was canceled due to the favor of other projects.
• All these bombs were meant to be dropped like conventional bombs at minimum 50´ angle. Meaning they were meant for the horizontal bombing.
• Most of these bombs were dropped by Focke Wulf 190 fighters, a logical replaced for the Ta-152. Since FW-190 saw anti-shipping action and had low altitude configurations.
• One notable record of the bombs hitting allied vessels was with the PC 1000 RS "Paul", were achieved in the Mediterranean on a cruiser "Dido class" the bomb hit at a speed of 1152 km / h and the igniter detonated on 0.065 sec after the impact, but as the bomb had already leaked out of the ship's bottom and detonated 5 m below the water.
• Switching from dive bomber to horizontal bomber would be logical for the high-speed planes the Graf Zeppelin already has and would not be too big of a change.
• Could penetrate 180 mm armor steel so a hit would be pretty deadly to big capital ships such as battleships, bombs were specifically designed to destroy the Nelson.

 

Option 2. SB 800 RS

• SB 800 RS also known as the bouncing bomb was a later project after the Rocket Assisted Anti-Shipment Bomb project.
• The whole idea of the bomb is to hit the side of the ship and detonate as it sinks under the ship after reaching the right depth for the fuse to activate, while the plane needs to reach maximum speed to drop it so it would get enough velocity to bounce depending if the bomb is with the rocket-assisted motor or not.
• The whole concept is new and would be an interesting unique mechanic in-game, currently, Graf Zeppelin dive bombers perform most effectively by side bombing so the technique would be quite similar on how to use this bomb.
• Would require a lot of testing to get it to work and personally is my least favorite option but it exists if the developers need some new creative mechanic, would still be hundred times more reliable than the current state of the dive bombers right now.

 

Footage of both Options in a rare restored tape.

 

[Nocturnal_Scream]

Hey there, Just dropping by to ABSOLUTELY confirms what he is saying. GF AP bombs are by far the WORST in the entire game. The main issue is the inconsitency with only 2 bombs and its massive dispersion.

[Procrastes]

I vote for Stukas! 

 

My reason is simple: Pure, unadulterated nostalgia. When I was just a little kid, my dad brought home a plastic model kit of a Junkers Ju-87 Stuka from a job trip to Hamburg. It was a pretty big and seriously cool model, and it hung (menacingly, as I liked to think) from my bedroom ceiling for quite a number of years. I've never forgotten it, and I've wanted to fly a Stuka dive bomber ever since. Now the Stuka in World of Warplanes seems to be hard to get by for some reason, and besides it's not even a dive bomber but the tank buster variant. So when I saw the promotion picture announcing that the Graf Zeppelin was for sale in the shop, showcasing the ship with a squadron of iconic-looking Stukas in the foreground, I immediately hit the "buy" button. Bummer for me when I went down in my newly acquired hangar, and found a bunch of Ta-152:s instead. Not to take anything away from them, but iconic WW2 dive bombers they ain't.

 

So assuming that the in-game mechanics can be tweaked enough to make the Stuka a valid choice for a carrier-based dive bomber at tier VIII, I would really like to have it in the game. From my relatively limited knowledge of WW2 combat aircraft, the Stuka would be able to drop a pretty big bomb with insane accuracy, while having abysmal speed and pitiable survivability against same-tier AA and enemy fighters. Since post-drop survivability is at best a second-hand tactical priority in this game anyway, I don't see that it wouldn't work.

[Elektroboot]

Personally, if I had the control of what aircraft the Graf Zeppelin would have since a CV line is very unlikely to happen for the Germans. Messersmith Bf 109 for the rocket attackers, Focke Wulf FW-190 as the torpedo bombers since it actually saw torpedo action in the second world war and is also a very iconic plane and lastly Junkers Ju-87 as the dive bombers. These three were the most recognizable axis planes in the war and any fan of the Luftwaffe would be probably ecstatic seeing all three of them in one carrier, I'm honestly baffled why Wargaming wasted the potential of getting more potential buyers if people knew the most iconic axis planes are on the CV.

[Nocturnal_Scream]

I mean even if you would give the gf the Ryujo bombs with the GF planes.... It still would be about three times as good as the bombs currently are. Its just to frustrating to use them.

[FishDogFoodShack]

... you're telling me that someone at wg thought the ta-152 was a good fit as a dive bomber?

 

Like Jesus I never bothered to check which planes Graf used now, but what the hell.

[1MajorKoenig]

55 minutes ago, Carrier_Graf_Zeppelin said:

1. Reasons why Graf Zeppelin dive bombers need to be changed.

• Ta-152 a high altitude interceptor fighter is non-sensical for the dive bomber role for naval engagement since this fighter isn't designed for low altitude engagements.
• The Ta-152 loadout with 1x PD 500 AP bomb and size of attacking flight being only 2 planes, dealing in maximum 14,000 potential damage if you manage to hit both bombs in the citadel is the lowest potential damage in-game for dive bombers even Langley's HE bombs have higher potential damage with their two bombs being 14,600 potential damage at Tier IV.
• Ta-152 with 1x PD 500 AP bomb suffers the worst accuracy to hit in-game with their size of attacking flight being only 2 planes being tied with other Tier IV Carriers with similar size of attacking flight of being two planes per drop and having payload being only one bomb, while Graf Zeppelin is supposed to be a T8 carrier and should be balanced by its piers at same tier, Enterprise, Kaga, Saipan etc. Enterprise respectably having the size of attacking flight being 3 planes with having 2 bombs each respectably increasing its accuracy to hit and potential to do 35,400 maximum potential damage. More than twice Graf Zeppelin could possibly do with a single drop.
• Ta-152 suffers the worst dive-bombing run I seen in the game. It requires a player with a high skill ceiling to able to take advantage of the angle of the bomb drop effectively. The bombs only drop directly down if you drop them early as possible when the bombing reticle appears this is when piercing battleships with strong deck armor is possible which is highly unreliable due to the bombs dropping very early and the accuracy suffers but it's the only way to get the optimal angle for the bombs to pierce..
• Ta-152 was designed by Wargaming to be a divebomber but it performs best as a horizontal bomber like the RN Horizontal bombers. Best result using these dive bombers is to side bomb cruisers with big side citadels but you sacrifice velocity to able to pierce in the last second of the run and have a chance to hit the torpedo belt which is highly armored, still being highly unreliable despise using it optimally.
• False advertisement, this cannot be pointed enough that Wargaming used Ju-87 Stukas in promoting the Graf Zeppelin but they never managed to be added due to the poor excuse of the Stukas being too slow to be viable for the dive bomber role in Tier 8, while a carrier like the Enterprise that use dive bombers that fly at similar speeds like the SB2C helldive but still are highly successful despite being slow.
• Graf Zeppelin currently sits at 48% winrate average being the least effective CV in the game at Tier 8.

 

Suggestion 1. Bringing back the Ju-87 Stuka and use regular AP bombs.

• Majority of Graf Zeppelin owners want it back, the plane was highly iconic during the second world war and Wargaming put already lot of resources on making it, it wouldn't require more of wargaming money to use already made assets.
• Speed is useless if the weapon that is used isn't reliable, the Ju-87 in the second world war was a very reliable close air support plane that could dive and pull up in very steep vertical dives, perfect for naval bombing.
• It was already planned to be used for the real Graf Zeppelin for historical reasons it should be with the carrier.
• The SB2C helldiver that the T8 Enterprise uses flies at 160 knots which would practically be the same speed that the Ju-87 would fly in-game. Yet the SB2C helldiver on the Enterprise is the most successful dive bomber in T8 despite being slow. The argument of Stukas being too slow to be used in-game is completely false.

 

Suggestion 2. Change the existing dive bombers into horizontal bombers.

Option 1. PC RS 1000-500 series, Rocket-Assisted Anti-Shipment Bomb.

• Rocket Assisted Anti-Shipment Bombs was a short term project used during 1941 in the Mediterranean sea funded by Rhein Metal to sink allied ships, the project lasted till 1942 April and saw continuous anti-shipping action until the project was canceled due to the favor of other projects.
• All these bombs were meant to be dropped like conventional bombs at minimum 50´ angle. Meaning they were meant for the horizontal bombing.
• Most of these bombs were dropped by Focke Wulf 190 fighters, a logical replaced for the Ta-152. Since FW-190 saw anti-shipping action and had low altitude configurations.
• One notable record of the bombs hitting allied vessels was with the PC 1000 RS "Paul", were achieved in the Mediterranean on a cruiser "Dido class" the bomb hit at a speed of 1152 km / h and the igniter detonated on 0.065 sec after the impact, but as the bomb had already leaked out of the ship's bottom and detonated 5 m below the water.
• Switching from dive bomber to horizontal bomber would be logical for the high-speed planes the Graf Zeppelin already has and would not be too big of a change.
• Could penetrate 180 mm armor steel so a hit would be pretty deadly to big capital ships such as battleships, bombs were specifically designed to destroy the Nelson.

 

Option 2. SB 800 RS

• SB 800 RS also known as the bouncing bomb was a later project after the Rocket Assisted Anti-Shipment Bomb project.
• The whole idea of the bomb is to hit the side of the ship and detonate as it sinks under the ship after reaching the right depth for the fuse to activate, while the plane needs to reach maximum speed to drop it so it would get enough velocity to bounce depending if the bomb is with the rocket-assisted motor or not.
• The whole concept is new and would be an interesting unique mechanic in-game, currently, Graf Zeppelin dive bombers perform most effectively by side bombing so the technique would be quite similar on how to use this bomb.
• Would require a lot of testing to get it to work and personally is my least favorite option but it exists if the developers need some new creative mechanic, would still be hundred times more reliable than the current state of the dive bombers right now.

 

Footage of both Options in a rare restored tape.

 

 

1) yes she needs proper Ju87s!

 

2) the whole blabla about Ju87s not fitting T8 is garbage as all bales including speed and HP are pulled out of blue air and can be adjusted as needed

 

3) the Midway HE DB nerf should be just that - a Midway HE DB nerf and needs to be reverted for GZ. As of now her DBs are useless as 

[Horin728]

Yea I'd love the Stukas to be back

 

the damage potential and hit chance of GZs DBs is really low... Which is a shame.

[Nocturnal_Scream]

6 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

 

1) yes she needs proper Ju87s!

 

2) the whole blabla about Ju87s not fitting T8 is garbage as all bales including speed and HP are pulled out of blue air and can be adjusted as needed

 

3) the Midway HE DB nerf should be just that - a Midway HE DB nerf and needs to be reverted for GZ. As of now her DBs are useless as 

Uhm, point 3 actually makes no Goddamn sense whatsoever. PSA: He dive bomber nerf on the Midway was only for the t6 t8 and t10 USN Carrier. It has nothing to do whatsoever with the GF ap bombs nor with any other bombers in the entire game (except saipan)

Edit: also pls for the love of all Thread Readers.... pls dont qoute the entire freaking OP Post

[Smeggo]

I'm all with you - but the biggest issue with me is the reduced speed. Slow planes are so boring, that sucked all fun out of the ship. 

[Nocturnal_Scream]

1 minute ago, Smeggo said:

I'm all with you - but the biggest issue with me is the reduced speed. Slow planes are so boring, that sucked all fun out of the ship. 

Thats good point, too. Increasing the overall speed by the GF planes to like +15 or +20 knots would fix a lot of her issues.

[artic_99]

I really hope WG does give some love to the gz. I don't own her but I saw how ridiculously bad her bombers are compared to enterprise and shokaku. 

[mrblueskye]

For myself, I like the fast planes and I can make the torps and even the rockets work.

 

I think the AP DB attack run and dive angle change should be reverted to the previous iteration and the squad config changed to 2x3 rather than 4x2.

 

If we could get WG to do that I think the DBs would be usable and much less frustrating.  

 

[1MajorKoenig]

Just now, Nocturnal_Scream said:

Uhm, point 3 actually makes no Goddamn sense whatsoever. PSA: He dive bomber nerf on the Midway was only for the t6 t8 and t10 USN Carrier. It has nothing to do whatsoever with the GF ap bombs nor with any other bombers in the entire game (except saipan)

 

Wut? GZ got the same “treatment” but got her circular reticle slightly narrowed (but not significant).

 

Check the old comms - that nerf was applied to GZ as well - creating most of the current issue (the other one being the messed up dive path)

[Nocturnal_Scream]

1 minute ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

 

Wut? GZ got the same “treatment” but got her circular reticle slightly narrowed (but not significant).

 

Check the old comms - that nerf was applied to GZ as well - creating most of the current issue (the other one being the messed up dive path)

absolutely not, the last change to GF was actually reducing her dispersion. In the Midway patch she didnt got touched at all

[1MajorKoenig]

9 minutes ago, Nocturnal_Scream said:

absolutely not, the last change to GF was actually reducing her dispersion. In the Midway patch she didnt got touched at all

 

She did. Check the discussion on that please.

 

Her dispersion was improved to compensate as it seems but that doesn’t help 

[Nocturnal_Scream]

44 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

 

She did. Check the discussion on that please.

 

Her dispersion was improved to compensate as it seems but that doesn’t help 

link me to it and I check it out then

[beercrazy]

1 hour ago, Nocturnal_Scream said:

link me to it and I check it out then

go to the main cv thread where a million posts have been made in it and its in there somewhere

 

seriously though I do believe @1MajorKoenig is right on this one

lots of nerfs happening to the cvs as well that's making it near impossible to keep and eye on every thread that is mentioning them

[CaptainOkita]

12 minutes ago, beercrazy said:

go to the main cv thread where a million posts have been made in it and its in there somewhere

 

seriously though I do believe @1MajorKoenig is right on this one

lots of nerfs happening to the cvs as well that's making it near impossible to keep and eye on every thread that is mentioning them

They are containment threads. Its not like WG even cares about feedback.

[HaachamaShipping]

The Stuka was taking away, because the plane speed WG wanted was not in line with slow Stukas and the Ta-152 matched it. And they refused to change it, because of that logic. Yet arbitrarily reducing the speeds across the board is somehow not violating that policy. Next they "buffed" the drop in a way that is nonsensical and made it actually worse.

 

Frankly, GZ is the epidome of WGs incompetence regarding CV gameplay. If there was any doubt about WG having absolutely no clue how their own CVs work, GZ should dispel these doubts. Accordingly, feel free to give up your hopes, for even if they try to "fix" it, it'll be an absolute crapfest. Just look at the incoming AA changes.

[Panocek]

Just drop the thing down to tier 6 and give her non gimmicky, normal Stuka+Me109 complement. Its not like T8 carriers have fun and engaging times, while T6 can see some use in Operations.

[Pikkozoikum]

5 hours ago, Carrier_Graf_Zeppelin said:

1. Reasons why Graf Zeppelin dive bombers need to be changed.

• Ta-152 a high altitude interceptor fighter is non-sensical for the dive bomber role for naval engagement since this fighter isn't designed for low altitude engagements.
• The Ta-152 loadout with 1x PD 500 AP bomb and size of attacking flight being only 2 planes, dealing in maximum 14,000 potential damage if you manage to hit both bombs in the citadel is the lowest potential damage in-game for dive bombers even Langley's HE bombs have higher potential damage with their two bombs being 14,600 potential damage at Tier IV.
• Ta-152 with 1x PD 500 AP bomb suffers the worst accuracy to hit in-game with their size of attacking flight being only 2 planes being tied with other Tier IV Carriers with similar size of attacking flight of being two planes per drop and having payload being only one bomb, while Graf Zeppelin is supposed to be a T8 carrier and should be balanced by its piers at same tier, Enterprise, Kaga, Saipan etc. Enterprise respectably having the size of attacking flight being 3 planes with having 2 bombs each respectably increasing its accuracy to hit and potential to do 35,400 maximum potential damage. More than twice Graf Zeppelin could possibly do with a single drop.
• Ta-152 suffers the worst dive-bombing run I seen in the game. It requires a player with a high skill ceiling to able to take advantage of the angle of the bomb drop effectively. The bombs only drop directly down if you drop them early as possible when the bombing reticle appears this is when piercing battleships with strong deck armor is possible which is highly unreliable due to the bombs dropping very early and the accuracy suffers but it's the only way to get the optimal angle for the bombs to pierce..
• Ta-152 was designed by Wargaming to be a divebomber but it performs best as a horizontal bomber like the RN Horizontal bombers. Best result using these dive bombers is to side bomb cruisers with big side citadels but you sacrifice velocity to able to pierce in the last second of the run and have a chance to hit the torpedo belt which is highly armored, still being highly unreliable despise using it optimally.
• False advertisement, this cannot be pointed enough that Wargaming used Ju-87 Stukas in promoting the Graf Zeppelin but they never managed to be added due to the poor excuse of the Stukas being too slow to be viable for the dive bomber role in Tier 8, while a carrier like the Enterprise that use dive bombers that fly at similar speeds like the SB2C helldive but still are highly successful despite being slow()

 

(...)

 

 

I did that in the german forum a while ago, the result was

 

Ju-87 for DB and TB - 72 (43.11%)

Ju-87 only for DB - 46 (27.54%)

Ju-87 only for TB - 1 (0.6%)

Current planes are good - 13 (7.78%)

I don't care - 35 (20.96%)

 

167 in total

[Elektroboot]

2 minutes ago, Panocek said:

Just drop the thing down to tier 6 and give her non gimmicky, normal Stuka+Me109 complement. Its not like T8 carriers have fun and engaging times, while T6 can see some use in Operations.

Sadly at T6, the secondaries it currently has would be absolutely devastating to that tier since you can beat a bismarck with it in a secondary duel, now imagine the poor T6 cruisers and BB players that have to face it, combine it with a cyclone might actually get Kraken just by secondaries alone. It honestly stands fine at T8 by only relying your rocket and torpedo squadrons you can still have good games with it, just the dive bombers completely let you down when you want to dish the finishing blow or any amount of meaningful damage, sadly the dive bombers are crippled by bad design choices such as non-sensical bombing run and horrible accuracy with just 2 bombs per drop.

[Panocek]

9 minutes ago, Carrier_Graf_Zeppelin said:

Sadly at T6, the secondaries it currently has would be absolutely devastating to that tier since you can beat a bismarck with it in a secondary duel, now imagine the poor T6 cruisers and BB players that have to face it, combine it with a cyclone might actually get Kraken just by secondaries alone. It honestly stands fine at T8 by only relying your rocket and torpedo squadrons you can still have good games with it, just the dive bombers completely let you down when you want to dish the finishing blow or any amount of meaningful damage, sadly the dive bombers are crippled by bad design choices such as non-sensical bombing run and horrible accuracy with just 2 bombs per drop.

its not like WG could roll back HE pen buff for 105 or trim secondary range a bit during basically rebalancing ship from scratch

[1MajorKoenig]

2 hours ago, Nocturnal_Scream said:

link me to it and I check it out then

 

Wow - ok I can see if I find that 

 

46 minutes ago, beercrazy said:

go to the main cv thread where a million posts have been made in it and its in there somewhere

 

seriously though I do believe @1MajorKoenig is right on this one

lots of nerfs happening to the cvs as well that's making it near impossible to keep and eye on every thread that is mentioning them

 

The change was about the distribution of bombs within the target area. They changed it so the bombs more likely fall to the edges rather than the center. Purpose was to nerf Midway’s capability to HE drop DDs. But in effect it completely made GZ’s AP Bomber useless. Plus the nerf was only announced for Midway (and Lexi potentially - not sure). 

 

A true ninja-nerf