italian SAP on DDs

[elblancogringo]

Hi everyone,

I have seen a video of Notser playing the Zara and he says that SAP are capped to 10% damage when you shoot at destroyers (except Harugumo and Khaba).

I wonder, what is the reason behind this?

10% makes it really low damage, compared to HE of other ships fired at DDs. SAP can't start fires, and it makes the AP extremely similar in terms of damage to destroyers, no need to change ammunition, just fire AP, you might even get full penetrations sometimes...

Why this choice?

Don't you think if at least it was 15 or 20% the incentive to switch ammo would be more interesting?

I think this is poor design.

[ColonelPete]

I think too it is not enough.

I already suggested in another thread to increase it to 20%.

 

Cruisers should be able to fight DD well, limiting them to 10% does not allow this.

[Floofz]

I dont understand why it needs to be reduced. Why do DDs get reduced everything, no full pens from BBs, reduced damage from SAP etc. Youre not supposed to get detected and youre not supposed to engage a cruiser, they are supposed to counter you. The only thing I can accept is that they can recieve an increased dispersion when firing against a DD.

Cruisers can easely get oneshotted so why shouldnt DDs, they even have more defensive capabilities.

[GarrusBrutus]

It's WiP. If it is too low they will change it. 

[ColonelPete]

13 minutes ago, Floofz said:

Youre not supposed to get detected and youre not supposed to engage a cruiser, they are supposed to counter you.

Since radar, they do.

And in case you did not notice: we have DD without smoke...

[Durin_VI]

Funny...Italian SAP on French DD; Le Fantasque (copy&paste from the wiki) AP Shell139 mm SAP OPFA Mle 1924 

 

How the title of the topic can have two meanings 

 

[Floofz]

30 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

Since radar, they do.

And in case you did not notice: we have DD without smoke...

 

Same thing applies to cruisers still. DDs are the most pampered class in the game by far, the class with the most exclusive damage reductions etc. And yes I do play DDs often, both in CBs, ranked and in random (althou not as much in randoms). I dont understand why they needed the nerf to not be able to take full pen. DDs SHOULD be able to get deleted. Infact they are the only class in the game now that cant effectivly get oneshotted by AP.

[ColonelPete]

2 minutes ago, Floofz said:

 

Same thing applies to cruisers still. DDs are the most pampered class in the game by far, the class with the most exclusive damage reductions etc. And yes I do play DDs often, both in CBs, ranked and in random (althou not as much in randoms). I dont understand why they needed the nerf to not be able to take full pen. DDs SHOULD be able to get deleted. Infact they are the only class in the game now that cant effectivly get oneshotted by AP.

I think you are mixing up DD with BB.

DD still have the lowest survial rating:

 

[Floofz]

Excuse me but tell me what kind of extra benefits BBs have? They have longer fire duration for starters and no extra bonuses. The only reason they survive longer is because people play them like long range snipers instead of how they should be played. Yes I couldve told you already DDs have the lowest survival rating, but thats due to the players not the ships, same with BBs.

[ColonelPete]

37 minutes ago, Floofz said:

Excuse me but tell me what kind of extra benefits BBs have? They have longer fire duration for starters and no extra bonuses. The only reason they survive longer is because people play them like long range snipers instead of how they should be played. Yes I couldve told you already DDs have the lowest survival rating, but thats due to the players not the ships, same with BBs.

Really?

• Armor
• Heal
• More HP
• Armor
• Did I mention armor?

And that does not help with surviving?

[mtm78]

3 hours ago, Floofz said:

I dont understand why it needs to be reduced. Why do DDs get reduced everything, no full pens from BBs, reduced damage from SAP etc. Youre not supposed to get detected and youre not supposed to engage a cruiser, they are supposed to counter you. The only thing I can accept is that they can recieve an increased dispersion when firing against a DD.

Cruisers can easely get oneshotted so why shouldnt DDs, they even have more defensive capabilities.

 

Because they are getting 'all that' and yet your win rate in battleships is substantially higher and your win rate in cruisers which you claim to be so much harder is on the same level as those hard to play destroyers? 

 

Gunboats are supposed to get detected, a Khaba you don't see an entire match just as well might have been AFK that's how much use he was for his team.. Gunboat DD's can easilly kill a cruiser if the cruiser is not playing right and let's himself get ambushed giving broadside to say a Grozovoi or Khaba at close range for instance. 

 

On the topic itself, SAP only getting 10% sounds like an error. The dpm against destroyers would make these the first line of cruisers which are better of ignoring shooting DD's and trying to be useful dealing damage on other targets. If anything the dpm should be moderately higher since you won't be setting fires or breaking as many modules ( I think... you shouldn't right, less explosive radius because of much lower bursting charge compared to a high explosive shell ). 

 

1 hour ago, Floofz said:

 

Same thing applies to cruisers still. DDs are the most pampered class in the game by far, the class with the most exclusive damage reductions etc. And yes I do play DDs often, both in CBs, ranked and in random (althou not as much in randoms). I dont understand why they needed the nerf to not be able to take full pen. DDs SHOULD be able to get deleted. Infact they are the only class in the game now that cant effectivly get oneshotted by AP.

 

So the change worked exactly as it should? Forcing BB's to have to switch ammo was the needed fix, having AP as best ammo for everything on battleships made them way to easy to play ( less need for teamwork, you can blap the DD yourself if he is spotted even if you had AP loaded... no even better if you had AP loaded... bad game design 101 ). 

 

Lolibote life been buffed constantly? How about Babybotes then? Getting stuff like hydro's, radar's, dfaa's, overall nerving of IJN torpedo's compared with CBT or even earlier, general movement buffs for all ships while not improving torpedo speeds ( way back in the days... ). The most pampered class in the game have always been battleships, because WG claims they draw in the crowds not pesky lolibotes. Everything which makes battleships to complicated to play is nerved eventually. I should post the bingo card and count the number of checked boxes but I can't be arsed sorry. 

 

 

 

 

 

[elblancogringo]

2 hours ago, mtm78 said:

On the topic itself, SAP only getting 10% sounds like an error. The dpm against destroyers would make these the first line of cruisers which are better of ignoring shooting DD's and trying to be useful dealing damage on other targets. If anything the dpm should be moderately higher since you won't be setting fires or breaking as many modules ( I think... you shouldn't right, less explosive radius because of much lower bursting charge compared to a high explosive shell ). 

This, I totally agree.

The italian cruisers look fun and unique, but I was really surprised by such a choice for SAP. I hope it is indeed an error.

 

[JimmyThePirate]

I think the low damage to DDs with SAP is for balancing purposes. Not only does SAP and Italian cruisers have great burst damage (can be done before a DD can smoke or run away), but they look to be very accurate and have 950m\s shell speed. Without some sort of nerf to their main armament, DDs would simply not stand a chance.

[Bear__Necessities]

5 hours ago, Floofz said:

DDs are the most pampered class in the game by far.

That’s funny 😂😂

[Yedwy]

7 hours ago, mtm78 said:

So the change worked exactly as it should? Forcing BB's to have to switch ammo was the needed fix, having AP as best ammo for everything on battleships made them way to easy to play

Well TBH I dont know if its any different really, between the long reload, relatively big modules sucking up the blast damage and often quite short intervals  where a dd is visible for you to aim and fire more often then not you either shoot AP at it or most likely nothing since it will go dark or kite away before you can change and due to the "intelligent" module damaging system and saturation you might still do more damage with AP...

 

So the overall result of AP vs DD interaction changes is IMO simply reducing BB DPM vs DDs, and that is not necessarily bad mind you

 

4 hours ago, JimmyThePirate said:

I think the low damage to DDs with SAP is for balancing purposes. Not only does SAP and Italian cruisers have great burst damage (can be done before a DD can smoke or run away), but they look to be very accurate and have 950m\s shell speed. Without some sort of nerf to their main armament, DDs would simply not stand a chance.

They are not supposed to stand a chance against a cruiser, you know hard counter and all

[KillStealBoss]

11 hours ago, Floofz said:

no full pens from BBs

Cause it was broken.

[NothingButTheRain]

27 minutes ago, MacArthur92 said:

Cause it was broken.

It was broken because of this multipen bug WG couldn't fix. But the funny thing is...that it was actually just realistic. The simulator was actually (and perhaps also unexpectedly) better then WG thought. But it did cause high damage AP volleys on DDs very occasionaly

 

But otoh I do get a lot of zero damage HE volleys on destroyers 

12 hours ago, elblancogringo said:

Hi everyone,

I have seen a video of Notser playing the Zara and he says that SAP are capped to 10% damage when you shoot at destroyers (except Harugumo and Khaba).

I wonder, what is the reason behind this?

10% makes it really low damage, compared to HE of other ships fired at DDs. SAP can't start fires, and it makes the AP extremely similar in terms of damage to destroyers, no need to change ammunition, just fire AP, you might even get full penetrations sometimes...

Why this choice?

Don't you think if at least it was 15 or 20% the incentive to switch ammo would be more interesting?

I think this is poor design.

I agree with you. These cruisers don't have hydro or other tools needed to hunt destroyers down. They are basically getting designed in such a way that they are gimped against destroyeres in basically every way. What's the point of this design choice anyway?

11 hours ago, Floofz said:

I dont understand why it needs to be reduced. Why do DDs get reduced everything, no full pens from BBs, reduced damage from SAP etc. Youre not supposed to get detected and youre not supposed to engage a cruiser, they are supposed to counter you. The only thing I can accept is that they can recieve an increased dispersion when firing against a DD.

Cruisers can easely get oneshotted so why shouldnt DDs, they even have more defensive capabilities.

And I certainly totally agree with this comment here.

DDs are supposed tro not get detected. That's why they got the best conceilment in the game! 

They got no citadel and now they don't even have HE to worry about? What's next? DDs outgunning Minos? Oh wait that's already a thing now 

9 hours ago, ColonelPete said:

Really?

• Armor
• Heal
• More HP
• Armor
• Did I mention armor?

And that does not help with surviving?

Yes, really.

 

Are you not aware of how badly DDs get played these days? Never noticed half of all DDs dead within 4 minutes because they can't read the map, they push into a cap full of radar or gunboating in the open and yolodie?

 

DDs get misplayed so often these days and after 4 minutes the battle is often decided by one team having all of its DDs expired and everybody getting farmed

But the dead DD players don't care, because while their now ex-teammates are getting outspotted and farmed, they (the now dead DD players) just go back to port and NEXT BATTLE! spam some more DDs! 

 

The most important reason why DDs have the lowest survival value is because of the stupidity of the players playing them. I can tell as I see this a lot up close from all classes (but especially when playing DD myself).

 

Go watch any random stream and instead of listening to the potential ranting of the streamer, just watch their minimaps and watch how long the DDs in their matches last.

 

It's just 

[Taliesn]

7 minutes ago, NothingButTheRain said:

It was broken because of this multipen bug WG couldn't fix. But the funny thing is...that it was actually just realistic. The simulator was actually (and perhaps also unexpectedly) better then WG thought. But it did cause high damage AP volleys on DDs very occasionaly

 

But otoh I do get a lot of zero damage HE volleys on destroyers 

I agree with you. These cruisers don't have hydro or other tools needed to hunt destroyers down. They are basically getting designed in such a way that they are gimped against destroyeres in basically every way. What's the point of this design choice anyway?

And I certainly totally agree with this comment here.

DDs are supposed tro not get detected. That's why they got the best conceilment in the game! 

They got no citadel and now they don't even have HE to worry about? What's next? DDs outgunning Minos? Oh wait that's already a thing now 

Yes, really.

 

Are you not aware of how badly DDs get played these days? Never noticed half of all DDs dead within 4 minutes because they can't read the map, they push into a cap full of radar or gunboating in the open and yolodie?

 

DDs get misplayed so often these days and after 4 minutes the battle is often decided by one team having all of its DDs expired and everybody getting farmed

But the dead DD players don't care, because while their now ex-teammates are getting outspotted and farmed, they (the now dead DD players) just go back to port and NEXT BATTLE! spam some more DDs! 

 

The most important reason why DDs have the lowest survival value is because of the stupidity of the players playing them. I can tell as I see this a lot up close from all classes (but especially when playing DD myself).

 

Go watch any random stream and instead of listening to the potential ranting of the streamer, just watch their minimaps and watch how long the DDs in their matches last.

 

It's just 

 

Any hard data to support your assertion that DD players are the worst?

 

Other than the players sailing the ship with less hp , usually with no repair and the ones getting closer to the caps being naturally the one's to go down more often leading you to the wrong conclusion?

[NothingButTheRain]

5 minutes ago, Taliesn said:

 

Any hard data to support your assertion that DD players are the worst?

 

Other than the players sailing the ship with less hp , usually with no repair and the ones getting closer to the caps being naturally the one's to go down more often leading you to the wrong conclusion?

Well there is the stats that ColonelPete has kindly provided here. Is that hard enough for you?

I'm pretty sure that's not because DDs are underpowered, because they are not.

 

You have any hard data of your own to provide?

[KillStealBoss]

43 minutes ago, NothingButTheRain said:

But otoh I do get a lot of zero damage HE volleys on destroyers 

Alaska often gets 0 dmg from HE against DD. 2 pens HE zero dmg 

[JimmyThePirate]

1 hour ago, Yedwy said:

They are not supposed to stand a chance against a cruiser, you know hard counter and all

There's a difference between hard countering a class of ship, and just flat out erasing it any time you see it. Noster showed what burst damage just 8 SAP 203 guns could do against cruisers that weren't even broadside, upping that to 15 guns against something that has no chance of bouncing the shells off of belt armor would just be to much.

 

Of course, this is all theoretical at the moment since they are still in testing. WG might decide that they are to accurate and lower their accuracy while uping the damage to 33% against DDs as compensation, etc. Not much reason to think to hard on it until the cruisers are finalized.

[Yedwy]

Broadsiding cruisers is one thing and angled anything really is something else entirely... Btw why u think dd wouldnt have a chance to bounce? 203mm AP shell overmatches what 14 mm of plate? And average t8-10 dd has how much plating again?

[NothingButTheRain]

17 minutes ago, MacArthur92 said:

Alaska often gets 0 dmg from HE against DD. 2 pens HE zero dmg 

I get 0 damage he pens on a lot of ships, but on DDs it's the most annoying as they are the hardest to spot and every k of damage to them matters the most.

[NothingButTheRain]

14 minutes ago, JimmyThePirate said:

There's a difference between hard countering a class of ship, and just flat out erasing it any time you see it. Noster showed what burst damage just 8 SAP 203 guns could do against cruisers that weren't even broadside, upping that to 15 guns against something that has no chance of bouncing the shells off of belt armor would just be to much.

 

Of course, this is all theoretical at the moment since they are still in testing. WG might decide that they are to accurate and lower their accuracy while uping the damage to 33% against DDs as compensation, etc. Not much reason to think to hard on it until the cruisers are finalized.

There is currently a bug with the SAP and IFHE, but this won't make it to the live server.

 

Frankly, I think it is actually extra important that this be changed before going to the live server.

[JimmyThePirate]

6 minutes ago, Yedwy said:

Broadsiding cruisers is one thing and angled anything really is something else entirely... Btw why u think dd wouldnt have a chance to bounce? 203mm AP shell overmatches what 14 mm of plate? And average t8-10 dd has how much plating again?

SAP shells don't auto bounce like normal AP shells. Their angles are much steeper and their normal pen much higher, like 50+mm or something like that. Don't know what the angles are, but I wouldn't be surprised if a DD didn't even have enough armor to bounce it anywhere (excluding Khaba with its 50MM strip).