Dividing between 3 capture points

[Myrmidon19]

I've been meaning to make a thread like this for a long time but never got round to but I'm also kinda surprised that I've not really ever seen it mentioned anywhere before. Basically there are a few maps where you have 3 capture points all up for grabs. Now here is the thing that really annoys me . In a nutshell: the team divides themselves between focusing all 3 caps, either on a mad push or on a lemming congregation whilst the enemy team specifically divides themselves between 2 capture points. So you essentially have 2 cap zones where generally you'll be outnumbered.

 

Now this isn't always a death sentence because it can very much dependent on just what is in those specific areas with regards to armour, firepower, spotting/utility etc but generally speaking the 2 focused caps will overwhelm the numerically inferior groups spreading themselves across all 3. I guess the point of this thread is a semi-rant but also to ask does this annoy the hell out of anyone else? It's almost like you can see a match being doomed within the first 2 minutes. Sometimes either side can win regardless of whether or not one side has a big advantage over the other or not, the quality of random teams is just that pretty random but even so when ever I see I just immediately sigh. 

[BrusilovX]

I've always thought that it's best to concentrate on two of the three caps in a domination game and have a brief discussion at the start o the game.  However, even when there is a general concencus of say A&B there are always  a few players that go C - and then complain that they were not supported there.

[ColonelPete]

Take a look at the Game Guides forum section.

 

Tactics depend on map, spawn positions and MM. Either tactic can work. Even if your team chooses the inferior tactic for a situation, it can work.

Tactics are important, but so is general gameplay. If you know how to hit and stay alive, that is a big advantage for your team.

[lossi_2018]

56 minutes ago, BrusilovX said:

\ even when there is a general concencus of say A&B there are always  a few players that go C - and then complain that they were not supported there.

Or some players that go AB after the brief talk you mentioned only to find out the whole fleet lemminged to C.

Now if they rant will they get chat banned? Yep.

Is it their fault? Nope.

[ColonelPete]

Ranting is always your fault...

[lossi_2018]

9 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

Ranting is always your fault...

Yes sir

[BrusilovX]

2 hours ago, lossi_2018 said:

Or some players that go AB after the brief talk you mentioned only to find out the whole fleet lemminged to C.

Now if they rant will they get chat banned? Yep.

Is it their fault? Nope.

Except that they don't suddenly all teleport to C so if you keep your eye on the mini-map you would not find yourself alone...

[lossi_2018]

1 hour ago, BrusilovX said:

Except that they don't suddenly all teleport to C so if you keep your eye on the mini-map you would not find yourself alone...

Im never alone. I'm a team player :) But sometimes I find myself in smaller unlucky groups. And they don't teleport, usually the steam away very fast, it is very funny

[Guest]

I thought the best tactic was to always amass your ships into C cap then wait for the enemy to come and kill them with overwhelming fire power?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Spoiler

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/Sarcasm

_{You are obviously really concerned that I might be mad. Fear and doubt no longer.... I am.}

_{Just not that mad!}

 

 

 

 

 

[Episparh]

In general the effort should be spread over all caps. If you are in a zone with local disadvantage you should try to survive and slow the enemies, giving your team group that have local advantage time to overwhelm their cap an come to aid you. 

 

Ignoring a cap is the worst tactical decision a team can make as you give a cap for free and a free path to your flank. 

[BanzaiPiluso]

It also depends on the amount of dds and if there carriers or not.

 

[GraySlayer]

In most all situations you will face it is better to keep the whole fleet together although this rarely ever happens in WOWS and you will get slayed for being a lemming train. However if you do all stay together

 

1. It is very hard for one ship to get prioed by the enemy as like a flock of birds to a predator there are just too many targets to choose from

 

2. Invariably you will meet a lesser force and with overwhelming fire power annihilate them as you should

 

3. All of your ships including your DDs have much better instant support

 

4. Good luck attacking a close fleet with planes

 

So why does the lemming train not work more in practice then?

 

Simply because without one flag ship dictating orders the ships in the fleet wander around and don't push as hard as they should with a fleet format. This enables the enemy DD's time to cap two other points. What should happen is you all push very hard on A and steam-roll your opposition. Once A is secured you ALL turn to B and gradually push forwards to mop up the remaining ships coming at you from BC and to secure B cap with A behind you. DD's in B will be pushed out

 

Ships sailed in fleets for this very purpose, they did not often split up and go their separate ways.

 

If 12 ships sail for A at most you will meet maybe 6 opposing you and those 6 will panic when they see the size of what's coming at them so their efforts will be not coordinated and they will all turn and flee.

 

As I say this tactic fails in this game not because it is not a sound way to manoeuvre a fleet of ships that are all supporting each other but because it lacks conviction

 

 

[GarrusBrutus]

Strategy and tactics are nice and all but when im in a team with potato-bob who cant hit a barn door in his montana our tactic goes right out of the window.

[Ubertron_X]

1 hour ago, Episparh said:

In general the effort should be spread over all caps. If you are in a zone with local disadvantage you should try to survive and slow the enemies, giving your team group that have local advantage time to overwhelm their cap an come to aid you. 

 

Ignoring a cap is the worst tactical decision a team can make as you give a cap for free and a free path to your flank. 

Very much this. The trick is to notice when you are at a disadvantage early on, deny any decisive battle and to kite away until reinforcments arrive. Even one ship - especially DDs - can stall an entire flank long enough to get local superiority elsewhere OR secure a free cap.

[Ubertron_X]

16 minutes ago, GraySlayer said:

...

 

Reasons against forming a single blob:

 

1) Enemy cross-fire

2) Coordination requirements

3) Torpedoes

4) Ship speeds / size of the map / reaction times

[TobiAssho]

7 hours ago, BrusilovX said:

I've always thought that it's best to concentrate on two of the three caps in a domination game and have a brief discussion at the start o the game.  However, even when there is a general concencus of say A&B there are always  a few players that go C - and then complain that they were not supported there.

 

9 minutes ago, GraySlayer said:

In most all situations you will face it is better to keep the whole fleet together although this rarely ever happens in WOWS and you will get slayed for being a lemming train. However if you do all stay together

 

1. It is very hard for one ship to get prioed by the enemy as like a flock of birds to a predator there are just too many targets to choose from

 

2. Invariably you will meet a lesser force and with overwhelming fire power annihilate them as you should

 

3. All of your ships including your DDs have much better instant support

 

So why does the lemming train not work more in practice then?

 

Simply because without one flag ship dictating orders the ships in the fleet wander around and don't push as hard as they should with a fleet format. This enables the enemy DD's time to cap two other points. What should happen is you all push very hard on A and steam-roll your opposition. Once A is secured you ALL turn to B and gradually push forwards to mop up the remaining ships coming at you from BC and to secure B cap with A behind you. DD's in B will be pushed out

 

Ships sailed in fleets for this very purpose, they did not often split up and go their separate ways.

 

If 12 ships sail for A at most you will meet maybe 6 opposing you and those 6 will panic when they see the size of what's coming at them so their efforts will be not coordinated and they will all turn and flee.

 

As I say this tactic fails in this game not because it is not a sound way to manoeuvre a fleet of ships that are all supporting each other but because it lacks conviction

 

 

 

This analysis is wrong on many levels. The theory sounds plausible, but its not how WoWs works.
I will show the main aspects of why this is wrong:
a) Pushing vs even "light" resistance is much slower than against no resistance and much more dangerous. Torpedos are very effective and you easily get into a crossfire.

b) Killing kiting ships takes a lot of time, even with supperior forces. Chasing them all the way to the map boarder to finally kill them costs too much time and you will lose all map controll if you do so. If you dont kill them they come back and crossfire you.

c) To successfully push you need ships to swap the lead, otherwise you get killed one by one. Usually what happens if the first ship in a random game push slows down to save HP, all others behind him slow down too instead of taking the dmg for a while.

In WoWs you have a huge defenders advantage, use it. Pushing is more dangerous, especially if you flanks are not protected.

 

So, dont lemming to 1 cap. You should also not split AB or BC. You rarely can get or hold the middle cap when losing 1 of the flanks for free, its just the same result as a full lemming train to A.

 

Instead split up evenly on the flanks. If you find no/few resistance push hard and flank the enemy to create cross-shots. If you face supperior forces kite. Kiting is not running like a headless chicken to the center of the map. Kite them away from the other caps. Often they stop chasing you and you can fall into their back. If they chase you, you give your team enought time to gain map and cap controll.

[GraySlayer]

I did say it does not often work on WOWS but when executed well it is decisive for sure. Ive been on some mega pushes and they always work.

[TobiAssho]

25 minutes ago, GraySlayer said:

I did say it does not often work on WOWS but when executed well it is decisive for sure. Ive been on some mega pushes and they always work.

 

Everything sometimes works, but its a bad way to play, inferior to anything a semi competent enemy does.

[GraySlayer]

11 minutes ago, TobiAssho said:

 

Everything sometimes works, but its a bad way to play, inferior to anything a semi competent enemy does.

 

Well there is that. You can never get the coordination to pull off complex fleet stuff anyway with 12 random people 90% of which don't want to talk to you and 60% of which are potatoes anyway no matter what you suggest

[TobiAssho]

56 minutes ago, GraySlayer said:

 

Well there is that. You can never get the coordination to pull off complex fleet stuff anyway with 12 random people 90% of which don't want to talk to you and 60% of which are potatoes anyway no matter what you suggest

I am glad that a player with 49% winrate on T9 comes to some much self awareness! You are not a bad guy.

[GraySlayer]

9 hours ago, TobiAssho said:

I am glad that a player with 49% winrate on T9 comes to some much self awareness! You are not a bad guy.

 

You're not so bad yourself for an A S S

[Myrmidon19]

To be honest win rate isn't very reflective of anything because no matter how good a person is they're only 1 guy in a team of 12. Winning is 90% chance on how good the other 11 players are relative to your contributions. You can get 4, 5 even 6 kills a game, with caps, fires, hundreds of hits but still lose because no matter how well you play there's 11 other people.

[ColonelPete]

2 hours ago, Myrmidon19 said:

To be honest win rate isn't very reflective of anything because no matter how good a person is they're only 1 guy in a team of 12. Winning is 90% chance on how good the other 11 players are relative to your contributions. You can get 4, 5 even 6 kills a game, with caps, fires, hundreds of hits but still lose because no matter how well you play there's 11 other people.

There are people with WR 40% after thousanths of games and there are player with WR 65% after thousanths of games.

That is a bit more than 10% player influence...

[Hanse77SWE]

Now this is one of my favorite parts of the game: The uncertainty.

 

You never know what the other team will do untill you have scouted them out and then you can come up with a plan. Making a plan without knowing anything is just a great leap into the void.

One of my basic rules is "Never leave a cap to the enemy!" Even if you go alone to a cap and find youself outnumberd, you can still do things:

 

1: Scout out the enemy team and your team can use that info.

2: Fight an delaying action tying down a lager force.

3: Harass

With the whole team going to one cap you've focused the teams force, but if the cap is empty then you have wasted time and resources on an easy target. If the cap is contested by an equal enemy force and your team fails to win the cap then you have also wasted time and resources on a fight were you have no advantage. Remember: A lemmingtrain must be in motion to work. If it stops, it dies.

 

von Clausewitz says: "Tactics is how you win a battle. Strategy is how you win the war through those battles." Going to a cap is strategy, how you fight when you get there is tactics. The decision to go there might be good, but by using the wrong tactics the good decision was made invalid. Don't confuse the two.

 

Sun Tzu says: "A good general finds advantages for himself whilst denying them to the enemy." Handing a cap over the the enemy is not coherent with that "rule".

 

Here's how I think at the start of the game:

 

1: "Do stuff!" Sitting still waiting for someone else to do something is a waste of time and time lost can never be brought back. Also, the more you do, the more options you give your team.

2: "The ship up front decides what, where and how. If you're not the ship up front, then you're job is to help the ship up front." Basically, DD take point, everybody else helps.

3: "Give yourself options!" Don't think "I'll go A." Instead think "I'll position myself somwhere between A and B and make my choice later when I know more."

4: "Don't be afraid of doing crazy stuff." Crazy is just another word for "unexpected" and if it's unexpected then it's not likely that the enemy has an option to counter it.

(Note: "Crazy" and "Suicidal" are not the same thing. Learn the difference.)

 

What I like about this game is that there is no black or white, no right and wrong. The whole game is one big grayarea filled with uncertainty. Expoilt that area to find options, use those options to to find advantages and use those advantages to "win" the game. Some times you won't find any options good enough to give you advantages so the fight will be harder and there's a bigger risk that you'll lose. But the one big cardinal-sin is to not go searching for advantages in the first place.

 

Remember:

"Who dares, wins"

"No captain can do very wrong if he places his ship alongside that of the enemy."

"If it's stupid but it works, it ain't stupid."

"It's better to have tried and failed than to not have tried at all."

[FukushuNL]

1 hour ago, ColonelPete said:

There are people with WR 40% after thousanths of games and there are player with WR 65% after thousanths of games.

That is a bit more than 10% player influence...

And what they can do for a match is generally the same. They can carry as hard or potato as hard. 

 

On topic: I generally feel taking 2 of the 3 caps as a team works better than spreading over 3 caps. In essence you got more firepower per cap, more cover for your DDs and losing one cap while decisively taking 2 is viable strategy. Then as you survive the two caps with overwhelming force, you can focus on killing off the survicing group going to the last cap. IRL only the potatoness of your team decides if you win and tactics is much less of an issue. Just like winrate by the way. It both helps, but only if you got the team to let it matter.