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Ace42X

Gascogne - What's its deal?

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So, I recently got the Gascan randomly, and I'm not doing great in it.

As far as I can tell, it's really just a Bismarck with hydro swapped out for engine boost (whup-di-do, an extra ~3kts if I'm not forced to dodge - tooltip suggests engine boost just raises the max-speed cap, does it improve other engine characteristics significantly too?) - with same "meh" fire chance, same bouncey low-calibre AP (possibly even worse when it comes to overpens?) - same number of guns, same secondary range.

Its angles seem bad in terms of getting second turret into play.

I am not seeing any reason to keep this ship out, given I've got a Bismarck and a Tirpitz that I am far more invested in floating - especially as I gather it received some nerfs a while back?  If it is just a french Bizzy, then it's going to be a real pain to level up an 18-pt CO to get all the 4-skills needed for a secondary / hybrid build.

Have I just got a citron sitting in my port?

 

If not, what are its strengths and how can they be applied effectively to make it worth driving?
I hesitate to think of bow-tanking given how inferior it should be in that respect to the Richelieu.
Its range is made redundant by its inaccurate guns (worse than my Bismarck / Tirpitz, according to the port stats?) that are poor for sniping.

Aside from the speed bonus appearing to be lacklustre, I can't see how to use it in a game which heavily punishes anything except for camping-and-taking-potshots:  Between the area-denial provided by DDs, the no-mans land provided by island-camping HE spam, and the poor angles and guns for the main-battery making lemming-trains on the flank a frustrating experience - I can't see any value in it other than novelty value, TBH.

Is this thing just a complete clunker?

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33 minutes ago, Ace42X said:

Its range is made redundant by its inaccurate guns (worse than my Bismarck / Tirpitz, according to the port stats?) that are poor for sniping.

 

The max dispersion is always based on the maximum range. Gascogne has more range than the german BBs, thus it shows a bigger max dispersion. French and german BBs use the same dispersion formula, so they are equal at same ranges. However, Gascogne has 1,9 sigma compared to Bismarcks 1,8. Sigma makes the shells group more towards the center of the elipse, so you might hit slightly more shells (but a difference of 0,1sigma is not that much anyway)

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21 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

The max dispersion is always based on the maximum range. Gascogne has more range than the german BBs, thus it shows a bigger max dispersion. French and german BBs use the same dispersion formula, so they are equal at same ranges. However, Gascogne has 1,9 sigma compared to Bismarcks 1,8. Sigma makes the shells group more towards the center of the elipse, so you might hit slightly more shells (but a difference of 0,1sigma is not that much anyway)

Yeah, that's pretty much what I figured, given the massive range on the G.  Just firing them off made me go "eh, these are pretty much the same as Tirp / Biz" - IE terribad.

 

37 minutes ago, Cambera_1 said:

Have you read Little White Mouse on her?

https://forum.worldofwarships.com/topic/151901-premium-ship-review-gascogne/

 

I personally haven't sailed her but read enough to know that she is not a good match for me. (Yet?)

:cap_look:

I'll check it out, although I tend to find LWM's (p)reviews tend to get outdated very fast as patches and nerfs muck about with the underlying values and power-creep sets in.  As I said, while having a cursory Google to see if I could answer this question without bothering the forum - I got the impression Gascan got hit by the nerf-bat at some point.

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1 hour ago, Ace42X said:

So, I recently got the Gascan randomly, and I'm not doing great in it.

As far as I can tell, it's really just a Bismarck with hydro swapped out for engine boost (whup-di-do, an extra ~3kts if I'm not forced to dodge - tooltip suggests engine boost just raises the max-speed cap, does it improve other engine characteristics significantly too?) - with same "meh" fire chance, same bouncey low-calibre AP (possibly even worse when it comes to overpens?) - same number of guns, same secondary range.

Its angles seem bad in terms of getting second turret into play.

I am not seeing any reason to keep this ship out, given I've got a Bismarck and a Tirpitz that I am far more invested in floating - especially as I gather it received some nerfs a while back?  If it is just a french Bizzy, then it's going to be a real pain to level up an 18-pt CO to get all the 4-skills needed for a secondary / hybrid build.

Have I just got a citron sitting in my port?

 

If not, what are its strengths and how can they be applied effectively to make it worth driving?
I hesitate to think of bow-tanking given how inferior it should be in that respect to the Richelieu.
Its range is made redundant by its inaccurate guns (worse than my Bismarck / Tirpitz, according to the port stats?) that are poor for sniping.

Aside from the speed bonus appearing to be lacklustre, I can't see how to use it in a game which heavily punishes anything except for camping-and-taking-potshots:  Between the area-denial provided by DDs, the no-mans land provided by island-camping HE spam, and the poor angles and guns for the main-battery making lemming-trains on the flank a frustrating experience - I can't see any value in it other than novelty value, TBH.

Is this thing just a complete clunker?

 

I love this ship.

 

Currently on a 16 pt captain - indeed a secondary/survivability hybrid - and having a blast. 

 

What‘s great about her compared to B-Marck?

 

- Sigma 2.0 (and it shows)

- spood beest  

- super fast heal

- excellent penetration for 38cm

 

She is what Battlecruisers should have been in this game. Flanking in her is hilarious and the souped up heal can keep you going longer than you think 

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3 hours ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

Sigma 2.0 (and it shows)

It's 1.9

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4 hours ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

 

I love this ship.

 

Currently on a 16 pt captain - indeed a secondary/survivability hybrid - and having a blast. 

 

What‘s great about her compared to B-Marck?

 

- Sigma 2.0 (and it shows)

- spood beest  

- super fast heal

- excellent penetration for 38cm

 

She is what Battlecruisers should have been in this game. Flanking in her is hilarious and the souped up heal can keep you going longer than you think 


I just don't see it.

 

The guns feel terrible.  Maybe if you roll enough dice the marginally better sigma will fluke you some good karma (like the double-cit I got on a henry IV two games ago), but the rest of the match (and all other matches) you're still going to be dumping tons of ordinance into water through no fault of your own because of the terrible max dispersion and high velocities (and thus vertical dispersion).

I can't see how to get much value out of the speed boost at all:

  • DDs + Island-camping creates huge no-go zones - both in the open ocean and covering choke-points.  Reaching these points sooner in the match confers no benefit I can see.  If I'm rushing forward I die, if I'm floating around at a stand-off distance, then not only is the speed boost almost worthless - but it also means I have to offer a very vulnerable broadside during big turns if I want to avoid drifting forwards / backwards.  This also precludes closing to secondary range, and thus lowers my impact on the match compared to a ship who has a better main battery.
  • You can use it to turn tail and run, at which point you have to rely on the rest of the team to win the game in your absence - because at max speed you're still not fast enough to travel the length of the map and meet up with your team's far flank before the game is effectively lost
  • Using it to run someone down is suicidal – if you're not evading, you're going to eat HE and probably a broadside from across the map / torp salvo too and cut your DPS in half; if you are evading you're not going to catch anyone up going at <25kts.  This is exacerbated by a secondary build which would usually deny you access to fire fighting skills.

The heal's powerful, but makes Superintendant fight BFT for skillpoints if you're going secondary build; and given how vulnerable to HE you are (more so in a sec build) much of the benefit is already consumed just mitigating that weakness, let alone dealing with your significant vulnerability to alpha in general.  It's also probably the most boring of unique selling points.

The penetration might be high, but it's not *reliable* – the low calibre means you can happily bounce off *DDs*; the high velocity means that, especially within secondary range, you overpen all the time and the vertical dispersion ignores any benefit sigma might RNG up for you.
Getting an unexpected broadside cit on a GKF from ~16km was a "uh, wow!" moment, failing to land any others at any other point in the match against any of the numerous broadside targets no matter their range was a "well that fluke totally failed to redeem the ship in my eyes" counterpoint.

No matter what I've got loaded, what I'm firing at, and what range / angle they are to me, I always wish I had the other shell type loaded because *neither are any good except when fluking*, and the same applies for me trying to choose between secondary or aiming mod - wanting either an extra few kms of range to flame up targets, or else wanting my HE shots to actually connect with the DD instead of creating some pretty splashes in every conceivable section of water around them.

This would be somewhat redeemable if her secondary build wowed me (and admittedly, I don't have a captain with enough CP to properly road-test it), but on paper it's still inferior to Germans, despite speccing it being far more detrimental to the ship as a whole, and despite even German 2ndry builds being considers to be gimped lol-builds.

I'm still not seeing what this ship offers over Bismarck other than a speedboost that puts you into harm's way from enemy torpedoes far more than Hydro gets you out of it, because I'm burning through those buffed heals just trying to stop her burning to death whether I spec full survivability or full sec.


Here's three builds I'm looking at:
Survivability
 

Secondary

 

Hybrid

All three have to make some really ugly compromises and fudges and I can't decide which I prefer:

Survivability is pretty much LWMs recommended build (although I swapped in engine boost buff rather than reduced chance of fire / floods, as that's the ships USP).  It makes good use of the french legendary captain, but it still leaves the ship a mehbote.

Secondary ditches any pretence at fire resistance, hoping to use manouvreability and super-heals to keep head above water - probably most fun to play?

Hybrid strikes me as workable, as losing concealment expert doesn't strike me as a big deal given that firing its main-battery will make it shine like a beacon for well over 20kms no matter what you do, and its concealment isn't super-special anyway.  Downside is that losing IFHE seems to be critical judging by LWM's estimation of its 2ndry penetration potential.
 

 

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I find Gascogne with secondary/IFHE build very comfortable and easy to play. Ship is agile and fast to play in manuver cruiser style. Fast reloading heal is keeping her alive for very long time. Our main goal of course is to destroy enemy cruisers, but harrasing enemy DD from secondaries is very important too. Enemy BB are our last priority. So we should try to be as close to caps as possible, using island cover to setting ambushes and planning escape routes from too heavy fire.

 

Playing on short/middle distance secondaries are doing almost 20% kills. Don't forget about ramming, when you are going to die.

image.png.217f87c941bb659faf1476d008f10bf9.png

 

Build is working good and I just love that offensive experience. Tested in 100 games. Without manual IFHE secondaries, it would be 65-70K DMG and ship would be just boring. To standard BB game (camo + survability), ex. NC/Alabama works much better thanks to 406 mm and 2/3 of firepower at bow.

image.thumb.png.400aeab8126a83013a8181b6f099de3c.png

tip: take main armaments modification 1 upgrade, becouse her bow turret is easy to knock out/destroy on close range even when having preventive maintanance perk. Without bow turret, she is barely playable then.

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7 hours ago, Ace42X said:

So, I recently got the Gascan randomly, and I'm not doing great in it.

As far as I can tell, it's really just a Bismarck with hydro swapped out for engine boost (whup-di-do, an extra ~3kts if I'm not forced to dodge - tooltip suggests engine boost just raises the max-speed cap, does it improve other engine characteristics significantly too?) - with same "meh" fire chance, same bouncey low-calibre AP (possibly even worse when it comes to overpens?) - same number of guns, same secondary range.

Its angles seem bad in terms of getting second turret into play.

I am not seeing any reason to keep this ship out, given I've got a Bismarck and a Tirpitz that I am far more invested in floating - especially as I gather it received some nerfs a while back?  If it is just a french Bizzy, then it's going to be a real pain to level up an 18-pt CO to get all the 4-skills needed for a secondary / hybrid build.

Have I just got a citron sitting in my port?

 

If not, what are its strengths and how can they be applied effectively to make it worth driving?
I hesitate to think of bow-tanking given how inferior it should be in that respect to the Richelieu.
Its range is made redundant by its inaccurate guns (worse than my Bismarck / Tirpitz, according to the port stats?) that are poor for sniping.

Aside from the speed bonus appearing to be lacklustre, I can't see how to use it in a game which heavily punishes anything except for camping-and-taking-potshots:  Between the area-denial provided by DDs, the no-mans land provided by island-camping HE spam, and the poor angles and guns for the main-battery making lemming-trains on the flank a frustrating experience - I can't see any value in it other than novelty value, TBH.

Is this thing just a complete clunker?

Do not underestimate her, honhonhon:

image.thumb.png.4bf406dabf6120d594a6cccb

 

image.thumb.png.8ecd69ac114f2757c96f7873

image.thumb.png.9d3c2ce159cc22f728d08583

 

image.thumb.png.8742ffaf0528e4e0b63521a5

image.thumb.png.1ede8c219021966212db8087

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8 hours ago, Ace42X said:
  •  

The heal's powerful, but makes Superintendant fight BFT for skillpoints if you're going secondary build

But most of your secondaries reload fast (100mm) unlike the German ones. You don't need BFT on the French. 

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I love secondary builds but I never thought the french were good at it. The Gascogne does have more than 50% higher secondary DPM than even the Kurfurst but pens nothing at tier without IFHE.

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6 minutes ago, gopher31 said:

I love secondary builds but I never thought the french were good at it. The Gascogne does have more than 50% higher secondary DPM than even the Kurfurst but pens nothing at tier without IFHE.

 

I feel the French lack armor to be close enough to use secondaries. While US ships are similiar, they atleast have 38mm deck (upper belt), which helps against Cruiser HE, and even Yamasushi AP. French have free HE pen/AP overmatch everywhere. Germans have ofc much better armor all around.

And some (or all?) have secondaries located at the back, so makes it kinda useless if you have most or all of your firepower in the front...

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50 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 

I feel the French lack armor to be close enough to use secondaries. While US ships are similiar, they atleast have 38mm deck (upper belt), which helps against Cruiser HE, and even Yamasushi AP. French have free HE pen/AP overmatch everywhere. Germans have ofc much better armor all around.

And some (or all?) have secondaries located at the back, so makes it kinda useless if you have most or all of your firepower in the front...

The Gascogne has the secondaries equally located. The problem is as you said their armour. Plus you need ifhe and still won't pen much. 

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1 minute ago, MacArthur92 said:

The Gascogne has the secondaries equally located. The problem is as you said their armour. Plus you need ifhe and still won't pen much. 

 

Ok, didnt know that since i dont have it. Have JB tho, where the big secondaries all face aftwards.

And with IFHE change looming over us, might become even more useless.... hope they dont make my Massa useless :Smile_sad: Dont need a BB, which isnt special with meh dispersion on T8

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1 minute ago, DFens_666 said:

 

Ok, didnt know that since i dont have it. Have JB tho, where the big secondaries all face aftwards.

And with IFHE change looming over us, might become even more useless.... hope they dont make my Massa useless :Smile_sad: Dont need a BB, which isnt special with meh dispersion on T8

Massa secondaries will pen 25mm even after the nerf. With IFHE ofc.

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1 hour ago, DFens_666 said:

I feel the French lack armor to be close enough to use secondaries. While US ships are similiar, they atleast have 38mm deck (upper belt), which helps against Cruiser HE, and even Yamasushi AP. French have free HE pen/AP overmatch everywhere. Germans have ofc much better armor all around.

And some (or all?) have secondaries located at the back, so makes it kinda useless if you have most or all of your firepower in the front...

Gascogne is different. As VIII tier,  she have many games with no so powerful VI-VIII tier ships and has fast reloading heal, so beeing closer is not so dangerous then. She has more secondaries at front (2x3 152 mm) and in games with lower tiers, she can use her back secondaries in many situations too. Anyway to make her playable, You must be in position when she can use her 2 main guns, showing much more broadside then other BB.

 

BTW. IFHE changes could make IFHE perk not mandatory: 100/5 = 20 mm pen with a tested rules. Her secondaries are mainly for killing DD when closing distance on full speed. Why Mass would be useless ? 127/5 = 25 mm. With IFHE = 30 mm. But fire chance will drop from 4% to 2,5% ? She would penetrate the same ships as it is now (when taking into consideration buffs to armor). With IFHE nerf, perk probably will be less then 4 points, and mayby DE will change it's place for +3 ? So mayby DE expert will be better choice then IFHE ?

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12 hours ago, Odo_Toothless said:

I find Gascogne with secondary/IFHE build very comfortable and easy to play. Ship is agile and fast to play in manuver cruiser style. Fast reloading heal is keeping her alive for very long time. Our main goal of course is to destroy enemy cruisers, but harrasing enemy DD from secondaries is very important too. Enemy BB are our last priority. So we should try to be as close to caps as possible, using island cover to setting ambushes and planning escape routes from too heavy fire.

 

Playing on short/middle distance secondaries are doing almost 20% kills. Don't forget about ramming, when you are going to die.

image.png.217f87c941bb659faf1476d008f10bf9.png

 

Build is working good and I just love that offensive experience. Tested in 100 games. Without manual IFHE secondaries, it would be 65-70K DMG and ship would be just boring. To standard BB game (camo + survability), ex. NC/Alabama works much better thanks to 406 mm and 2/3 of firepower at bow.

image.thumb.png.400aeab8126a83013a8181b6f099de3c.png

tip: take main armaments modification 1 upgrade, becouse her bow turret is easy to knock out/destroy on close range even when having preventive maintanance perk. Without bow turret, she is barely playable then.

i just wonder how with IFHE/manual (you can not have stealth) you manage to "sneak" up and not get burned down (again you do not have tan build) by tX cruisers :) (we all know X games are your 80% games :)

 

also if i am not mistaken he has 105 guns? With IFHE you shatter on most BBs, right?

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31 minutes ago, veslingr said:

i just wonder how with IFHE/manual (you can not have stealth) you manage to "sneak" up and not get burned down (again you do not have tan build) by tX cruisers :) (we all know X games are your 80% games :)

 

also if i am not mistaken he has 105 guns? With IFHE you shatter on most BBs, right'

Gascogne has not a chance doing anything great to tier X ships with 2x1 gun setup, anyway. In such games I am on distance using HE most the time. Best is cross firing position to use AP, behind island (if possible). Closing and ramming is a good option too. You just can't outplay properly played X ships with her.

 

But there are plenty of games with VI-VIII tiers too. She has 100 mm guns. IFHE is needed to penetrate DD (this is the most important)  and teoretically to BB superstucture. In practice most shells will shatter anyway on other parts. But 152 mm will penetrate 25&32 mm. So 80k average is rather easy with such build with good WR pumped on lower or equal tiers (like Mass).

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53 minutes ago, Odo_Toothless said:

But there are plenty of games with VI-VIII tiers too

On those battles Gascan is shining. Very potent. 

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I still have problem with this full secondaries built :) Isnt bismarck much more suited for this role? Better armor, better HE spam protection, hydro for aggressive push?

 

I like this ship, but struggle to put him to work, i have average 77 k dmg (and abmisaly bad WR, ok small numer of games), which is lower than Odo-s full secondarie (i run tank)....i did try seondarie and floped eaven harder.....

 

i like speed

i like reload

i like lightning fast shells

 

but 8 guns, HE hurts alot, 380 caliber....grrrrr

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42 minutes ago, veslingr said:

I Isnt bismarck much more suited for this role? Better armor, better HE spam protection, hydro for aggressive push?

But I am not really pushing too much when not top tier and only vs rather weak enemies. Just playing Atago like game in manuveur, so avoiding most HE spam. Trying to flank and close distance/ambush vulnerable enemies without too much support and never forcing Myself into static tanking position when heavy HE spam is possible. Concentrate on DD hunting in right time, so WR will follow.

 

Bismarck is similar, but I found Gascogne as even easier ship to play. 38 knots max speed with flag is a game changer to her. Many games looks like this. Start, full speed after closest DD to cap going behind island. Then move back angled in time when our DD spotted enemy one. Salvo + secondaries - she has many times 1/3 HP less. So far as Your citadel is hidden, everything is ok. Too much fire ? Just run. Exactly like cruiser. Her sister Rep is too clumsy, facing too strong opponents to play like that too often.

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1 hour ago, veslingr said:

I still have problem with this full secondaries built :) Isnt bismarck much more suited for this role? Better armor, better HE spam protection, hydro for aggressive push?

 

I like this ship, but struggle to put him to work, i have average 77 k dmg (and abmisaly bad WR, ok small numer of games), which is lower than Odo-s full secondarie (i run tank)....i did try seondarie and floped eaven harder.....

 

i like speed

i like reload

i like lightning fast shells

 

but 8 guns, HE hurts alot, 380 caliber....grrrrr

It's not good for hard push at all. Those secondaries are not the main source of your damage, they're a good bonus but that's it. This is not a second German line secondary-based. You don't have enough armour for that on the French. 

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5 hours ago, Odo_Toothless said:

Gascogne has not a chance doing anything great to tier X ships with 2x1 gun setup, anyway. In such games I am on distance using HE most the time. Best is cross firing position to use AP, behind island (if possible). Closing and ramming is a good option too. You just can't outplay properly played X ships with her.

 

But there are plenty of games with VI-VIII tiers too. She has 100 mm guns. IFHE is needed to penetrate DD (this is the most important)  and teoretically to BB superstucture. In practice most shells will shatter anyway on other parts. But 152 mm will penetrate 25&32 mm. So 80k average is rather easy with such build with good WR pumped on lower or equal tiers (like Mass).

 

17 hours ago, ___V_E_N_O_M___ said:

Do not underestimate her, honhonhon:

image.thumb.png.8742ffaf0528e4e0b63521a5

image.thumb.png.1ede8c219021966212db8087

This was a tier x game, she did fine and came out top. Depends on you play the ship. Tier x games for a tier 8 bb means you have to be on your a-game to get any results.

 

Key thing dont die early, try to stay alive while being effective.

 

My wr in it is good and at least half those matches were with tier 10:

 

20190731_184943.jpg

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15 minutes ago, ___V_E_N_O_M___ said:

 

This was a tier x game, she did fine and came out top. Depends on you play the ship. Tier x games for a tier 8 bb means you have to be on your a-game to get any results.

 

Key thing dont die early, try to stay alive while being effective.

Yes - such good games happens, when there is a lot of perfect oportunities and Your team is doing well, or just enemy is weak. Normally for most tier X ships Gascogne is powerless food coated in tasty 32 mm. Especialy when enemy ships are nose in to us, so we can't penetrate them at all. ex. NC in such case at least can still doing AP DMG to cruisers, and we have only HE and our ramming speed ;-).

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7 hours ago, Odo_Toothless said:

Gascogne is different. As VIII tier,  she have many games with no so powerful VI-VIII tier ships and has fast reloading heal, so beeing closer is not so dangerous then. She has more secondaries at front (2x3 152 mm) and in games with lower tiers, she can use her back secondaries in many situations too. Anyway to make her playable, You must be in position when she can use her 2 main guns, showing much more broadside then other BB.

 

BTW. IFHE changes could make IFHE perk not mandatory: 100/5 = 20 mm pen with a tested rules. Her secondaries are mainly for killing DD when closing distance on full speed. Why Mass would be useless ? 127/5 = 25 mm. With IFHE = 30 mm. But fire chance will drop from 4% to 2,5% ? She would penetrate the same ships as it is now (when taking into consideration buffs to armor). With IFHE nerf, perk probably will be less then 4 points, and mayby DE will change it's place for +3 ? So mayby DE expert will be better choice then IFHE ?

100m guns  /6 penetration

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