[S-E] FixCVs_Nautical_Metaphor Players 3,532 posts 29,240 battles Report post #1 Posted July 22, 2019 Just a thought. Economics, at whose core sits the XP/credits algorithm matrix - there seems to be some sort of consensus among serious players that it places too much emphasis on damage while not rewarding core teamplay behaviour enough (tanking - spotting - scouting). The reason given by the officials at the developer summit Q&A in St Petersburg: "It is much too complex to simply adjust it with a few broad changes." For which EDIT @Sub_Octavian gave a few hints and examples I transcribed elsewhere. Balance is a whole pantry full of cans of worms, and Wargaming's favourite thing to do seems to be to open several at a time, pour them all into a big pot, heat and stirr vigorously for a tasty worm stew. At its core are the damage mechanics, and "complex" doesn't even begin to cover it. You actually need to study all this. The load of stuff you have to learn to be any good at this game - it seems if you put that kind of effort into whatever you do for a living, chances are you could jump a whole tax bracket. This means that all but the most talented casual players are always going to suck. At the same time I am with Jingles who once pointed out that most players will forever remain casual players. They either keep sucking, don't mind it too much and fail their way up to the top tiers, or they stop playing at some point, scaring WG into yet another ill-considered marketing scheme in fear for its profit. I wager some potential players don't even try the game, even though they would like to, because they get scared off by the daunting complexity in advance. Now some of you might remember me scathing over Wargaming "dumbing down" the game ever further, through this, that or the other change. It might appear inconsistent. However, the "dumbing down" I have problems with usually involves things like WG automating game mechanisms. There is little to no skill involved in using your ship's AA and secondaries. Automated CV consumables seem to be the tip of the iceberg for now. I'm curious about the effects of a dumbed-down economy if that enabled WG to enhance the rewards for teamplay. About a dumbing down of damage mechanics that helped WG screw up balance less often. Hypothesis, at the same time, both might lead to lessen the study pensum, shifting the emphasis on skills instead of knowledge and thus increasing casual player retention. Everybody wins. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[TTT] GraySlayer Players 645 posts 5,471 battles Report post #2 Posted July 22, 2019 Complexity? This game is EASY in comparison to EvE. Go play small gang PVP in that and then you'll understand complexity ROFL There are nuances to this game that define good from bad players but those nuances are actually not complex. And remember we are only talking two games here out of ten. The main nuances are Awareness Aiming Shell choice Angling Map Reading Knowing where you need to be and when (falls under awareness really) Understanding your ship Knowing when you need to retreat and regroup (falls under awareness really) Knowing when you need to push (falls under awareness really) Win 4 out of ten consistently and you're a rubbish noob 40%WR Win 6 out of ten and you're a God purple Unicum on 60%WR Win 6.5 consistently and you're a SUPER HUMAN UNICUM It's only two games out of every ten that separates the Unicum from the Noob! 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[HU-SD] Prospect_b Players 2,655 posts 14,214 battles Report post #3 Posted July 22, 2019 3 minutes ago, GraySlayer said: Complexity? This game is EASY This. I bought Gary grigsby's war in the east a few weeks ago on steam sales. Still haven't finished the manual. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[HOO] Fat_Maniac [HOO] Players 2,337 posts 4,238 battles Report post #4 Posted July 22, 2019 There is one change to the economy Wg could make that would over time help everyone. Stop rewarding failure. Drastically reduce the amount of XP you earn if you lose. And reduce credit earning on a loose just to cover expenses. We want fun and engaging games, so improve the skill set of the player base by making people realise they have to play well and learn to win to progress 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[BAD-F] Sir_Grzegorz Beta Tester 798 posts 16,110 battles Report post #5 Posted July 22, 2019 I agree that damage should be rewarded less. Yes, with no compensation to everything else, that will improve the economy. I like the idea of you loose you pay more, you win you pay less expenses. So it is circa zero in total for battle. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mad_Dog_Dante Players 6,636 posts Report post #6 Posted July 22, 2019 19 minutes ago, Fat_Maniac said: There is one change to the economy Wg could make that would over time help everyone. Stop rewarding failure. Drastically reduce the amount of XP you earn if you lose. And reduce credit earning on a loose just to cover expenses. We want fun and engaging games, so improve the skill set of the player base by making people realise they have to play well and learn to win to progress What I like about this idea is that you would not be in an Hindenberg right now but stuck in a Yorck for ever. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[HOO] Fat_Maniac [HOO] Players 2,337 posts 4,238 battles Report post #7 Posted July 22, 2019 Just now, Europizza said: What I like about this idea is that you would not be in an Hindenberg right now but stuck in a Yorck for ever. I'd like that too. I hardly touch HIndy, because I know I'm not really good enough to play her. And God I hated Yorck, it was pre her gun buff. I just couldn't make those flighty shells work. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[S-E] FixCVs_Nautical_Metaphor Players 3,532 posts 29,240 battles Report post #8 Posted July 22, 2019 Vor 1 Stunde, GraySlayer sagte: Complexity? This game is EASY in comparison to EvE. That's as may be but those games are targeting a different core clientele. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[KLUNJ] bushwacker001 [KLUNJ] Players 2,870 posts Report post #9 Posted July 22, 2019 On the other hand, I know players in this and Tanks that know everything there is to know re armour thicknesses, where to shoot, velocity, whatever....and are still bloody useless. I can be classed as casual and never felt the need to study and learn beyond what I pick up from playing and do OK (I was the same at school ) Obviously there are others that feel the need to know AND be good but I also bet there are bloody good players that just play and don't worry about the statistic side. I also am at the stage where I hardly look at the xp won or credits earned each game as winning the battle is far more important. Each to their own. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[THESO] KillStealBoss Players 12,123 posts 62,194 battles Report post #10 Posted July 22, 2019 I don't see what's complicated in this game, especially after 10k+ battles. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CptBarney Players 8,127 posts 245 battles Report post #11 Posted July 22, 2019 Just break down every complex action into smaller simple actions, that helps me understand more complex things and make more sense to me as well. chess is pretty complex even if it looks simple. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
250swb Players 628 posts 2,129 battles Report post #12 Posted July 22, 2019 4 hours ago, Fat_Maniac said: Stop rewarding failure. Drastically reduce the amount of XP you earn if you lose. And reduce credit earning on a loose just to cover expenses. Good idea if you want a self perpetuating cycle of mediocrity. No matter how you want to rig it players will still want to go to higher tiers, and they'll do it by not improving the ships they have but playing each tier 'on the cheap' with the least use of credits. So you may well end up even with good players playing poorly equipped ships simply because it's a habit they got into grinding low tiers and economising the paltry credits you want them to earn with a loss. If your idea of man management is to demotivate players by reducing credits and XP it's going to work like a charm, I mean, why care about the game and playing well if you are penalised for losses which may not be of your making? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
little_rowboat Players 340 posts Report post #13 Posted July 22, 2019 Vor 7 Stunden, CptBarney sagte: chess is pretty complex even if it looks simple. Naah it‘s not complex. What makes it feel complex is the variations in combination with foresight. The “meta“ (rules and characteristics of figures) is pretty simple. That’s why it is and was so popular. In comparison Wows meta (mostly characteristics of ships) is more complex but variation and foresight is much more comprehensible. If you reduce the characteristics of ships to what‘s really important, it all becomes pretty simple. I neither do know the exact torp-, gun-, spotting- and detection range of every ship, but I do know the approximative radar ranges and durations for example and the difference in reload, detection range, torp range of the DDs for example.. Reduce your knowledge to what is needed for your personal situation in this game, complexity is comprehensible and you can easily become (super-)unicum with little time invest. Due to my job I can‘t play much when not having holidays or sitting in a hotel, but doing pretty decent acting like mentioned above. For this, what you only have to have, is 3 things: - objective self reflection - awareness of what happens around you - the will to reduce your mistakes by being aware of them (aka don‘t blame others/meta/rng for your own failures) and learning to prevent making them step by step If a player lacks those it‘s gonna be tough to improve. If a player doesn’t like to - totally fine for me - like mentioned several times there are many reasons to play that game besides wanting to win. But if a player wants to improve and win but lacks one of those 3 mentioned things, he/she can’t blame anybody but her/himself. besides: those 3 things might help in RL either 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[S-E] FixCVs_Nautical_Metaphor Players 3,532 posts 29,240 battles Report post #14 Posted July 22, 2019 Vor 13 Stunden, Saiyko sagte: I bought Gary grigsby's war in the east a few weeks ago on steam sales. Still haven't finished the manual. Well, the manual for WoWs is... let's go with "minimalist", to stay on the constructive side. Bringing us back to where this game is different from others, and what could be relevant benchmarks and what couldn't. It would appear the game is in places too complex for its developers with respect to staying on top of economy and balance tweaks, and at any rate, too complex for the translators of the didactic material, such as it is. And I don't know why they don't bother to fix the manuals and tutorials but it can't all be the budget motive either. So I ask again, wouldn't things improve for all of us if some effort were expended on reducing complexity. The KISS principle and all that. I'm not even thinking if of effort on the scale of the CV rework. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[I-J-N] Karasu_Browarszky [I-J-N] Players 13,025 posts Report post #15 Posted July 22, 2019 12 hours ago, Saiyko said: This. I bought Gary grigsby's war in the east a few weeks ago on steam sales. Still haven't finished the manual. You read the manual? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
anonym_WQDIB9XrzbSp Players 495 posts Report post #16 Posted July 22, 2019 I have learned herein that there are still games with manuals Not sure I've seen one of those since... well CM01/02? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[S-E] FixCVs_Nautical_Metaphor Players 3,532 posts 29,240 battles Report post #17 Posted July 22, 2019 Vor 14 Minuten, WynnZeroOne sagte: I have learned herein that there are still games with manuals Well they call it the "game guide" over here. https://worldofwarships.eu/en/content/guides/ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
anonym_WQDIB9XrzbSp Players 495 posts Report post #18 Posted July 23, 2019 42 minutes ago, FixCVs_Nautical_Metaphor said: Well they call it the "game guide" over here. https://worldofwarships.eu/en/content/guides/ I never even knew Wows had such content.... got into this watching Youtube whilst lamenting Total War naval combat failings. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[NWP] Bear__Necessities Players 5,291 posts 15,379 battles Report post #19 Posted July 23, 2019 22 hours ago, FixCVs_Nautical_Metaphor said: Holy . Just seen THAT video... Holy ... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[OM] ghostbuster_ Players 4,996 posts 21,881 battles Report post #20 Posted July 23, 2019 11 hours ago, FixCVs_Nautical_Metaphor said: So I ask again, wouldn't things improve for all of us if some effort were expended on reducing complexity. The KISS principle and all that. I'm not even thinking if of effort on the scale of the CV rework. are you for real? you want to reduce the complexity of one of the easiest games i have ever seen? for what? to make it easly playable for apes? (its already on that level btw) we need higher complexity not lower. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[HU-SD] Prospect_b Players 2,655 posts 14,214 battles Report post #21 Posted July 23, 2019 17 minutes ago, Bear_Necessities said: Holy . Just seen THAT video... Holy ... Which one? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Operation_Crossroads_1 Players 142 posts Report post #22 Posted July 23, 2019 2 minutes ago, Saiyko said: Which one? Jingles has one of the OP's up featuring some "special" players.. Just another day in WoWs IMO (if you've seen it). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[THESO] KillStealBoss Players 12,123 posts 62,194 battles Report post #23 Posted July 23, 2019 11 hours ago, FixCVs_Nautical_Metaphor said: would appear the game is in places too complex for its developers with respect to staying on top of economy and balance tweaks, and at any rate, too complex for the translators of the didactic material, such as it is. How about Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[HU-SD] Prospect_b Players 2,655 posts 14,214 battles Report post #24 Posted July 23, 2019 23 minutes ago, Bear_Necessities said: Holy . Just seen THAT video... Holy ... 2 minutes ago, Operation_Crossroads_1 said: Jingles has one of the OP's up featuring some "special" players.. Just another day in WoWs IMO (if you've seen it). Imagine if we had the technology to share some "universal" way of "locating resources" on the internet Let me help 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[NWP] Saltface Players 2,062 posts 18,465 battles Report post #25 Posted July 23, 2019 (edited) 50 minutes ago, Bear_Necessities said: THAT video 29 minutes ago, Operation_Crossroads_1 said: Jingles has one of the OP's up featuring some "special" players.. link? EDIT I just saw it.... still crying (I don't know if it is rage or despair) Edited July 23, 2019 by Saltface Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
