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affie

IFHE rework & thoughts

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I have looked at Notsers untitled video, listened to thewarshippodcast, read reddit threads and had a look around in the game for armor models when a thought hit me. 

 

The rework is intended to make IFHE more of a choice between alpha or DOT damage and it seems to treat different tiers different with 1/6th vs 1/5th penetration and will build more gaps between T5-7 and T8-10 even if they meet in the current MM. 

 

What I noticed was that the Russian BB at T5 has stupid amounts of armor (it can bowtank Yamato...) and is more or less immune to HE alpha, and if this works at T5 why would not a standardised bow/deck/stern armor of 32 mm work for ALL battleships and treat the guns equal with penetration values regardless of tiers, 152 mm is 152 mm. The balance could be made by different damage due to more modern shells with more explosives packed inside and/or higher/lower fire chance and RoF. 

 

One bad thing I can see is that it is a nerf to ships with large calibre guns for their tier (Warspite/WV1944/Sinop) since they can't overmatch other battleships and some ships need to be rebalanced but maybe the overmatch mechanic shall be removed all together and punish bowtanking instead of promote it?

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8 hours ago, affie said:

I have looked at Notsers untitled video, listened to thewarshippodcast, read reddit threads and had a look around in the game for armor models when a thought hit me. 

 

The rework is intended to make IFHE more of a choice between alpha or DOT damage and it seems to treat different tiers different with 1/6th vs 1/5th penetration and will build more gaps between T5-7 and T8-10 even if they meet in the current MM. 

 

What I noticed was that the Russian BB at T5 has stupid amounts of armor (it can bowtank Yamato...) and is more or less immune to HE alpha, and if this works at T5 why would not a standardised bow/deck/stern armor of 32 mm work for ALL battleships and treat the guns equal with penetration values regardless of tiers, 152 mm is 152 mm. The balance could be made by different damage due to more modern shells with more explosives packed inside and/or higher/lower fire chance and RoF. 

 

One bad thing I can see is that it is a nerf to ships with large calibre guns for their tier (Warspite/WV1944/Sinop) since they can't overmatch other battleships and some ships need to be rebalanced but maybe the overmatch mechanic shall be removed all together and punish bowtanking instead of promote it?

Overmatch mechanic shouldn't be removed & bowtanking should remain.

That being said though. I agree that some battleships needs a be balanced out. I played with my T7 Scharnhorst vs the T6 Izmail who was stationary broadside for me at 5 km range and I couldn't citadel him. And he was capable to kill me with AP while I was bowtanking. 

That just promotes the wrong gameplay. 

Battleships need to tank and need to do that in the correct way, otherwise the BB would just turn into a free to farm damage platform. Something it is almost becoming with all the HE spamming, easily fire starting and high DPM ships that have been introduced. 

 

IFHE

IFHE just needs be more a significant choice. Now you can combine the IFHE skill with DE to make the fire chance back as it was + you have a higher HE pen. 

As I see it, they need to reduce fire chance for all ships, -not by much but enough to make it feel noticeable-  and then give us a choice. Use IFHE and get more pen, but no fire chance at all, or get DE and have a higher fire chance but no HE pen. But not both skills. They should cancel each other out. This makes player think more on their build. Now they can just spam away. 

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1 minute ago, TheWiggleBottom said:

 

IFHE

IFHE just needs be more a significant choice. Now you can combine the IFHE skill with DE to make the fire chance back as it was + you have a higher HE pen. 

As I see it, they need to reduce fire chance for all ships, and then give us a choice. Use IFHE and get more pen, but no fire chance at all, or get DE and have a higher fire chance but no HE pen. But not both skills. They should cancel each other out. This makes player think more on their build. Now they can just spam away. 

and while were at it make both skills 3 pointers, so we can choose between more dot or more alpha.

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12 minutes ago, SgtTincan said:

and while were at it make both skills 3 pointers, so we can choose between more dot or more alpha.

Either both 3 points skill or both a 4 point skill, depending on the value they receive. 

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I was thinking about this regarding my Henri IFHE build and if I inderstand this correctly (and thats a BIG "if") just switching IFHE to DE after this change goes live will make Henri almost more powerfull .... right? Or am I missing something? Sure, I wont be able to get the same Alpha damage on well armoured ships like Kremlin, Stalin etc. but I will land as mush fires or even more on those and on all else. So pretty much only nerf to Henri should be a little bit in competitive and maybe the 0,7 sec reload nerf which wont effect the ship at all?!

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14 minutes ago, OldschoolGaming_YouTube said:

I was thinking about this regarding my Henri IFHE build and if I inderstand this correctly (and thats a BIG "if") just switching IFHE to DE after this change goes live will make Henri almost more powerfull .... right? Or am I missing something? Sure, I wont be able to get the same Alpha damage on well armoured ships like Kremlin, Stalin etc. but I will land as mush fires or even more on those and on all else. So pretty much only nerf to Henri should be a little bit in competitive and maybe the 0,7 sec reload nerf which wont effect the ship at all?!

Well stats are still subject to change, but what I understand is this.

The default pen for cruisers with 152&155mm will become, 1/5. All other cruisers calibers will get the default 1/6 pen. 
Henri has 240mm. So 240/6 = 40mm. with the new IFHE it will get 40*1.25=50mm. So it would be able to pen 50mm. So you would be able to damage everything that has 50mm of armor. You wouldn't need 51mm. like you do need now. that rule will be gone.

 

All cruisers will get a 30mm upper belt and deck armor. If this is true, then the Minotaur will also get that armor. It means it has the armor to defend itself. That's something to consider in the new meta. 

Battleships like the Montana, the GK, Conq,  will have a problem however if they try to overmatch that armor. 

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1 hour ago, OldschoolGaming_YouTube said:

I was thinking about this regarding my Henri IFHE build and if I inderstand this correctly (and thats a BIG "if") just switching IFHE to DE after this change goes live will make Henri almost more powerfull .... right? Or am I missing something? Sure, I wont be able to get the same Alpha damage on well armoured ships like Kremlin, Stalin etc. but I will land as mush fires or even more on those and on all else. So pretty much only nerf to Henri should be a little bit in competitive and maybe the 0,7 sec reload nerf which wont effect the ship at all?!

If I've understood it correctly, which is also a big 'if', then not only what you said, but also the T8+ CLs are going to notice very little difference, except less frequent fires. Purely looking at HE (not AP) for a moment, the only major change I can see is that T6-7 CLs get absolutely shafted when against higher-tier BBs, which strikes me as counter-productive.

 

Happy to be corrected though.

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10 hours ago, affie said:

One bad thing I can see is that it is a nerf to ships with large calibre guns for their tier (Warspite/WV1944/Sinop) since they can't overmatch other battleships and some ships need to be rebalanced but maybe the overmatch mechanic shall be removed all together and punish bowtanking instead of promote it?

 

Either i dont understand what you mean, but if you cover all BBs in 32mm armor, then it will promote even more bowcamping, as it cant be punished anymore :cap_hmm:

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Vor 11 Stunden, affie sagte:

I have looked at Notsers untitled video, listened to thewarshippodcast, read reddit threads and had a look around in the game for armor models

So it would seem the one thing you failed to do was read the massive thread about it that we had the other day in this forum here.

 

https://forum.worldofwarships.eu/topic/120890-ifhr-related-armor-adjustments-and-its-implication-for-ap/?do=findComment&comment=3081611

 

Zitat

why would not a standardised bow/deck/stern armor of 32 mm work for ALL battleships and treat the guns equal with penetration values regardless of tiers, [...]

One bad thing I can see is that it is a nerf to ships with large calibre guns for their tier (Warspite/WV1944/Sinop) since they can't overmatch other battleships and some ships need to be rebalanced but maybe the overmatch mechanic shall be removed all together and punish bowtanking instead of promote it?

 

Sure, sure.

 

The core problem with WG's approach was that it did not touch enough core game mechanics and isn't sufficiently unpredictable and also is much too small a change to the whole meta.

 

I mean really, we're getting bored with the live rebalancing of the Carrier rework already, things have been a lot too calm here these past few weeks. We were getting into a rut. Let's spice things up again for a change!

 

 

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12 hours ago, affie said:

One bad thing I can see is that it is a nerf to ships with large calibre guns for their tier (Warspite/WV1944/Sinop) since they can't overmatch other battleships and some ships need to be rebalanced but maybe the overmatch mechanic shall be removed all together and punish bowtanking instead of promote it?

 

406mm can't overmatch 32mm of plating but can overmatch 26mm of T7 BB and bellow. Same for 380mm guns. So in that regard everything will be stay the same.

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In B4 the german "Sonderweg" of the 1/4 pen rule is lost along the patch.process.

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11 hours ago, affie said:

What I noticed was that the Russian BB at T5 has stupid amounts of armor (it can bowtank Yamato...) 

Did you know that a hermelin(tier 1) can also do that? The way that ccs display this is very misleading and players just eat it up as gospel. I do not see a problem with ships having armor at the bow when their broadside citadel is almost as high as their deck is. 

 

The whole IFHE change is needed but its done sloppy, like everything else wg does, and some ships benefit while others are straight up nerfed like Atlanta which is fine as it is. 

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51 minutes ago, fumtu said:

 

406mm can overmatch 32mm of plating but can overmatch 26mm of T7 BB and bellow. Same for 380mm guns. So in that regard everything will be stay the same.

406 can't overmatch 32mm plating. Just 460mm can. 

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24 minutes ago, Miki12345 said:

Did you know that a hermelin(tier 1) can also do that?

 

Actually Hermelin can't bow tank Yamato. Hermelin bow armour is only 6mm. What it can do is bounce Yamato shells on its armoured belt if angled.

 

 

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1 hour ago, TheWiggleBottom said:

Well stats are still subject to change, but what I understand is this.

The default pen for cruisers with 152&155mm will become, 1/5. All other cruisers calibers will get the default 1/6 pen. 
Henri has 240mm. So 240/6 = 40mm. with the new IFHE it will get 40*1.25=50mm. So it would be able to pen 50mm. So you would be able to damage everything that has 50mm of armor. You wouldn't need 51mm. like you do need now. that rule will be gone.

 

All cruisers will get a 30mm upper belt and deck armor. If this is true, then the Minotaur will also get that armor. It means it has the armor to defend itself. That's something to consider in the new meta. 

Battleships like the Montana, the GK, Conq,  will have a problem however if they try to overmatch that armor. 

 

So it doesnt change anything for Henri pretty much then? I will probably change from IFHE to DE and some T1 skill anyway. Im curious how much I can boost the already insane damage output will DE build instead. I wont do full Alpha to the 50mm ships but will still set a crap-ton of fires on them and even more on the lesser armoured ships as well.

 

But so the armour on the bow wont change on the Mino? Which means Henri will still be able to cit the Mino thru the nose.

 

1 hour ago, 10ThousandThings said:

If I've understood it correctly, which is also a big 'if', then not only what you said, but also the T8+ CLs are going to notice very little difference, except less frequent fires. Purely looking at HE (not AP) for a moment, the only major change I can see is that T6-7 CLs get absolutely shafted when against higher-tier BBs, which strikes me as counter-productive.

 

Happy to be corrected though.

 

Yeah, if thats correct then its stupid, If there is someone that need some more love its the T8 cruisers.

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3 minutes ago, MacArthur92 said:

406 can't overmatch 32mm plating. Just 460mm can. 

 

Yup, I wanted to put can't but instead put can. Thank for correction.

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little late to the thread but how will these changes affect ships that legitimate need them to be competitive the 2 extreme examples would be Jutland and Daring 2 DD's that cant even pen other DD's without it but even with it do very little to BB's and CA's without torps and need that fire as another if not small cause of damage.

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IFHE penetration value should definitely NOT be changed. four points is a whole lot, so it must be a significant boost. 
The fire chance reduction can be bigger IMO, but doesnt need to be. 

The proposed changes for IFHE are very, very bad and should not happen

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What is the latest news about this rework? Is it already announced? Or still just a rumor? Or happened already? 

 

I caught a free respec day (said personal discount, no idea why I got it) and reset all my captains. Now wonder if I need to take/avoid IFHE in case of rework or not rework..

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15 minutes ago, Kenjiro_ said:

What is the latest news about this rework? Is it already announced? Or still just a rumor? Or happened already? 

 

I caught a free respec day (said personal discount, no idea why I got it) and reset all my captains. Now wonder if I need to take/avoid IFHE in case of rework or not rework..

 

Still WiP.

They do have a certain idea what they will do tho, but they didnt say when it will go live. I expect they discovered some problems along the way...

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WG have a wonderful opportunity to slightly balance what's left of the game with this IFHE change.  No seriously, they can rewrite alot of wrongs with this, if they llook at pen and armour values.

 

IFHE needs to be a choice.  Not compulsion like it is now on alot of ships.  It can also define the ship classes more, unlike now where it is all over the place.

 

However, I have no faith what-so-ever that they will do a good job of it, in fact they will make it worse to fit their £££££££ goal. Past records don't lie. 

 

 

 

 

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12 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 

Still WiP.

They do have a certain idea what they will do tho, but they didnt say when it will go live. I expect they discovered some problems along the way...

 

So we should ignore it when picking skills for now and hope a free respec when/if those changes go live? I believe we will get free respec if there is any major changes on how it works no?

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1 minute ago, Kenjiro_ said:

 

So we should ignore it when picking skills for now and hope a free respec when/if those changes go live? I believe we will get free respec if there is any major changes on how it works no? 

 

Id assume they give us a free respec with the change... But i do have some  captains aswell, which i resetted and wont skill them unless i play that ship.

If you can play Clanbattles, you also get 2 respecs from playing atleast 1 battle (first week of CBs, and once CBs are finished)

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