Powercreep of older ships (for example German BB "Scharnhorst") and possible ways to remedy it...

[Leo_Apollo11]

Hi all,

 

Powercreep of older ships (for example German BB "Scharnhorst") and possible ways to remedy it...

 

 

First of all I must say that I really love my "Scharnhorst" - I haven't played her that much in "Random" but I did play her elsewhere whenever applicable. It was always very nice and fun ship!

 

 

Unfortunately, with many other ships around, I didn't play her for long time (possibly from "Snowflakes" event).

 

 

So... with new Ranked "Sprint" #5 I played her again in earnest and I got to Rank #1 rather quickly:

 

 

 

but it was not "easy ride"...

 

 

 

 

With all those "Sinop" RU BBs "infecting" the Ranked I really really felt totally out of place... the one and only thing that "saves" the "Scharnorst" was the reload time...

 

 

Here are current "Random" battled stats for Tier VII BBs:

 

 

https://wows-numbers.com/ship/3763287856,Scharnhorst/

 

 

 

Have you got similar experience?

 

What do you think could be done to remedy this powercreep?

 

 

 

Leo "Apollo11"

 

 

P.S.

Over weekend I accidentally press "Random" instead of Ranked" with my "Scharnhorst" and, of course, ended up as the sole Tier VII in Tier IX match...

 

Oh boy... it was so hard... I did manage to stay alive till the end and my team won but I struggled to do damage and barely won one-on-one fight against RU CA "Dmitri Donskoi"...

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

Nothing here points to power creep? Caliber has always been Scharnhorts 'thing'. Not sure what you want solved sir.

[Leo_Apollo11]

Hi all,

 

2 minutes ago, Europizza said:

Nothing here points to power creep? Caliber has always been Scharnhorts 'thing'. Not sure what you want solved sir.

 

When "Scharnorst" was first introduced she was fine, competitive and fun ship.

 

But that was years ago.... now we have ships like "Sinop" at her tier and she is powercreeped in earnest...

 

 

Leo "Apollo11"

[invicta2012]

It's not really power creep, but it was obvious that Sinop was very strong in Ranked. She has strong armour and her accuracy is lethal in those close range encounters. Had to be the #1 target at all times. 

[DFens_666]

Every ship struggles against Russian BBs IMO.

- They shatter Cruiser HE

- They are less vulnerable to fires because of their DCP

- They are less vulnerable against BB AP because of their thicker armor almost everywhere.

 

So buffing Scharnhorst doesnt solve the problem. Nerf RU BBs instead.

[fumtu]

4 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

So buffing Scharnhorst doesnt solve the problem. Nerf RU BBs instead.

 

This. If you look weekly stats, Sharn is average, some weeks are better then others, but it is close to the majority of T7 BBs by WR and average damage. Sinop, Nelson and Ashitaka are the three that seems little too strong, especially Sinop and Nelson. And while WG maybe can't do anything with Nelson, they can nerf Sinop, but probably it won't happen soon.

[Yedwy]

Sharn is rather lackluster nowdays she should get a sigma/dispersion buff IMO, due to large number of overmatching bbs in her mm now with super accuracy while brawling her guns really need help its less calibre then t9/10 ccs ffs

[Donar79]

8 minutes ago, fumtu said:

Sinop, Nelson and Ashitaka are the three that seems little too strong, especially Sinop and Nelson. And while WG maybe can't do anything with Nelson, they can nerf Sinop, but probably it won't happen soon.

But u can handle Nelson with a little focus. She doesn't bounce AP a lot and the deck eats cruiser HE. Sure she has zombie heal but a little mismanagement of consumables and she is gone.

7 minutes ago, Yedwy said:

Sharn is rather lackluster nowdays she should get a sigma/dispersion buff IMO, due to large number of overmatching bbs in her mm now with super accuracy while brawling her guns really need help its less calibre then t9/10 ccs ffs

Yeah its the inconsistency thats annoying i agree. I would love her to be more accurate.

[DFens_666]

21 minutes ago, fumtu said:

This. If you look weekly stats, Sharn is average, some weeks are better then others, but it is close to the majority of T7 BBs by WR and average damage. Sinop, Nelson and Ashitaka are the three that seems little too strong, especially Sinop and Nelson. And while WG maybe can't do anything with Nelson, they can nerf Sinop, but probably it won't happen soon.

 

Nelson is definetely on the strong side if you know what you are doing.

I think the only thing to care about in russian BBs is not to show broadside

[PonyOnSteroids]

Of all the German BBs the Scharnhorst is the last one that needs buffs. Although I really would like a competitive secondary build that could compete with survivability build. 

[mantiscore]

Scharnhorst is still decent in this sprint. I only used her. You are faster than most BBs and you can use your torps and secondaries on the small map

 

[Leo_Apollo11]

Hi all,

 

10 minutes ago, AronForce said:

Scharnhorst is still decent in this sprint. I only used her. You are faster than most BBs and you can use your torps and secondaries on the small map

 

 

Nice - congrats - you had 6 games less than me!

 

 

BTW, how many "Sinops" did you encounter?

 

In my last 10 games I had at least 2-3 "Sinops" in enemy team and all I could do was 5K damage per volley... it was super frustrating... not to mention the world of hurt "Sinop" was able to do to my poor "Scharnhorst"...

 

 

Leo "Apollo11"

[mantiscore]

9 minutes ago, Leo_Apollo11 said:

Hi all,

 

 

Nice - congrats - you had 6 games less than me!

 

 

BTW, how many "Sinops" did you encounter?

 

In my last 10 games I had at least 2-3 "Sinops" in enemy team and all I could do was 5K damage per volley... it was super frustrating... not to mention the world of hurt "Sinop" was able to do to my poor "Scharnhorst"...

 

 

Leo "Apollo11"

i actually met quite a few of them. however there were much more scharns and gneises.

my tactic against them is just to flank them when they are bow in. if they focus on me they show full broadside to my team. if they dont care about me i can torp them easily. of course it backfired sometimes because im out of any pewpew for a while

[ColonelPete]

She is still fine and a fun ship.

Her only problem is that cruiser numbers are down and they are her primary prey.

This will solve itself in the next months when the RU BB hype goes down.

[Taliesn]

26 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

She is still fine and a fun ship.

Her only problem is that cruiser numbers are down and they are her primary prey.

This will solve itself in the next months when the RU BB hype goes down.

 

Agreed.

She'll have a great time again when the italian cruisers enter the game in like 2029

[Aragathor]

Let me preempt my post by admitting that the Scharnhorst is still a good ship. It requires more and more skill to get decent results due to changes to the game.

 

There are several reasons why ships like the Scharnhorst are in a worse and worse spot.

 

First, is the fact that all 3 of the German lines have been hurt by the changes to the game more than other nations. DDs with their Hydro are in a bad spot as that gimmick doesn't compensate for the other weaknesses in the current meta, even with CVs taken out of the equation. Cruisers are too slow and lumbering to work closer to the enemy, so they stay at range as weak HE spammers and rarely AP users. BBs have been powercrept badly as all their strengths have been eclipsed by other lines that can do it too.

 

Second, the ships have design problems. Example could be the cruiser line that doesn't have a flavor, it's just a mix of ideas working against each other. Or the BB line where the main artillery, which is already one of the weakest in game for the class, works against you to guarantee a bad game.

 

Third, slow reaction time and bad decisions made by WG to compensate. The Hindenburg/Roon nerf combined with massive buffs to other lines competing for the role of flanker, then a useless extra heal that ignores the fact that the ship dies form alpha and not dot damage. And now the half measure of a buff when the ship is still hurting. To be fair, sometimes the buff is right on the money, like the Yorck gun changes. But we waited far too long for the "balance" team to react.

 

Fourth, there is something in the way WG balances ships that is horribly wrong. Let me explain it below:

Spoiler

WG balance decisions appear to me to be based not on customer response and satisfaction, but on an elusive goal set in an office of someone who never played the game for any reasonable amount of time.

It reminds me how in the first gulf war CIA claimed US airstrikes did no damage to Iraqi army and infrastructure, even when faced with direct evidence to the contrary (see It Doesn't Take a Hero by Gen. Schwartzkopf). We as the customers say a ship like the Blyskawica is getting boring and not fun to play, and WG responds with "the stats are fine" ignoring the fact that only 37 people bothered to take the ship out for a game this week. We want the ships to be fun and WG doesn't understand that. And no, fun is not the same as OP.

 

Fifth, WG abandoned balancing low-mid tiers, as positive changes are applied now mostly to T8+ ships. Example, no 105mm pen buff for Scharnhorst.

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

2 hours ago, Leo_Apollo11 said:

Hi all,

 

 

When "Scharnorst" was first introduced she was fine, competitive and fun ship.

 

But that was years ago.... now we have ships like "Sinop" at her tier and she is powercreeped in earnest...

 

 

Leo "Apollo11"

The Scharnhorst was never introduced as competive against other BB's. She was and is still a cruiser killer.

 

28 minutes ago, Taliesn said:

 

Agreed.

She'll have a great time again when the italian cruisers enter the game in like 2029

[VanD4rk]

As @Aragathor stated I wish to see the 105mm pen buff for Scharnhorst.

Also it would be nice for the sister ships to get the base range of secondary armament to 6 or 7 km.

[Miragetank90]

I absolutely love Scharn, I think she's fine. 

 

I dunno if she has been power creeped or anything, but I agree that Sinop is truly ridiculous, and this is not fine. 

[Leo_Apollo11]

Hi all,

 

14 minutes ago, Europizza said:

The Scharnhorst was never introduced as competive against other BB's. She was and is still a cruiser killer.

 

True... but then you end in the following situation in Ranked Sprint:

• 3x BB ("Sinop")
• 1x CA
• 2x DD

and suddenly your options are very limited (or erased to be honest)...

 

 

Leo "Apollo11"

 

 

P.S.

And I don't even want to mention what happens in ordinary "Random" battles when you play against Tier IX ships...

[HaachamaShipping]

5 minutes ago, Leo_Apollo11 said:

Hi all,

 

 

True... but then you end in the following situation in Ranked Sprint:

• 3x BB ("Sinop")
• 1x CA
• 2x DD

and suddenly your options are very limited (or erased to be honest)...

 

 

Leo "Apollo11"

 

 

P.S.

And I don't even want to mention what happens in ordinary "Random" battles when you play against Tier IX ships...

And when you get matched against 3 Hoods your options are what? Or three Gneisenaus? Or any three BBs that are fast enough that you cannot just torprush them. This issue has always existed for Scharnhorst, Sinop doesn't change that, because a Colorado can tank your shells just as well as a Sinop.

[FixCVs_Nautical_Metaphor]

Vor 3 Stunden, DFens_666 sagte:

So buffing Scharnhorst doesnt solve the problem. Nerf RU BBs instead.

Yeah that's not gonna happen.

 

As we found out last week, what it takes to change WG's hive mind about a really bad idea is a maximum, all-out concerted shitstorm involving all types of players as well as PR by all the best-known CCs. Across all servers, I might add. (Just as I predicted in the doctrine of the #FixCVs campaign.)

 

IOW all of "us" pulling together.

 

That didn't even happen against the reworked carriers and it sure as hell is never gonna happen against any branch of surface ships.

 

How great this game could be if the player base were to "unionize"...

 

[fumtu]

3 minutes ago, FixCVs_Nautical_Metaphor said:

Yeah that's not gonna happen.

 

As we found out last week, what it takes to change WG's hive mind about a really bad idea is a maximum, all-out concerted shitstorm involving all types of players as well as PR by all the best-known CCs. Across all servers, I might add. (Just as I predicted in the doctrine of the #FixCVs campaign.)

 

IOW all of "us" pulling together.

 

That didn't even happen against the reworked carriers and it sure as hell is never gonna happen against any branch of surface ships.

 

How great this game could be if the player base were to "unionize"...

 

Sorry but WG do nerf ships that are overperforming. YY and Shira are examples, HIV also received small nerf and there are other ships too. Only question is when WG will nerf them if they consider them too good compared to other ships at that tier. I doubt that we will see any nerf soon but if Sinop continue with this stats it would be nerfed for sure.

[DFens_666]

2 minutes ago, FixCVs_Nautical_Metaphor said:

Yeah that's not gonna happen.

 

I expect a nerf at some point, maybe half a year~ year from now. Guess they will monitor how long its worth to keep a little advantage so that people will use FreeXP (money) to get it too.

Unless noobs really do suck in RU BBs, then they might not nerf them, because stats are fine. The whole concept of being less vulnerable against 3 major damage forms (HE/AP/Fires) is totaly upside down, and it makes perfect sense that russian ships have this feature. I could live with them being able to shatter more HE shells, but then they shouldnt have crazy DCP to go with.

[FixCVs_Nautical_Metaphor]

Vor 9 Minuten, fumtu sagte:

 

Sorry but WG do nerf ships that are overperforming.

Note that your examples are all non-Russian.

My prediction is that WoWs will go the way WoT has gone, with the all-out, full-on, unashamed, open Russian BS bias.

Not only will they not nerf Soviet BBs, they will buff all other soviet classes, and in max 1 year, introduce Soviet fantasy CVs. The top tier ones will have jet planes.

 

The only real problem I see from WG's PoV is that both Soviet carriers that ever existed in real life have names already taken by other ships in this game ;-)