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Mind_Expander

AA still firing through islands: fix needed.

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As anyone who has played a CV in the new era can tell you, there are some situations where AA fire passes straight through solid rock.

A ship which has not yet gained line of sight to the aircraft will not start firing until the planes emerge from around the island, allowing planes to effectively use islands as hard cover during an approach.   This is good, as it opens possibilities for intelligent play by the CV.

 

However, there are cases where a ship that is already firing AA at planes will continue to fire even when those planes break line of sight by flying behind solid cover.   The AA shells can clearly been seen passing straight through what should be solid rock and detonating in the path of departing aircraft.

This needs fixed, as it is both immersion-breaking, and also rather unfair to the CV player who is trying to make intelligent use of cover to escape after making a strike.

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45 minutes ago, Mind_Expander said:

This needs fixed

 

No it shouldn't. If anything the behavior needs to be made to consistently go through islands as some islands will actually block AA whereas others won't.

The reason is very simply. Flak animation and flak damage zone are two entirely separate things. If you block the animation that just means the damage zone turns invisible. Islands do NOT block flak damage zone creation.

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To be clear, I want island to block both animations AND damage from AA.    It makes no sense for AA to be able to shoot through solid rock.     Main battery shells, secondary shells, torps, none of them can shoot through islands, why should AA?

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3 hours ago, Mind_Expander said:

To be clear, I want island to block both animations AND damage from AA.    It makes no sense for AA to be able to shoot through solid rock.     Main battery shells, secondary shells, torps, none of them can shoot through islands, why should AA?

You are mixing some real life details with simulation ones, and they dont mix well.

IRL planes do not go close to mountains because of the air curents that exist there. Also aiming a bomb require having a line of sight to a ship for enough time. 

So, to stealthy approach a ship, they used different methods, like coming from the sun side, flying in the clouds, etc. 

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10 minutes ago, 22cm said:

You are mixing some real life details with simulation ones, and they dont mix well.

IRL planes do not go close to mountains because of the air curents that exist there. Also aiming a bomb require having a line of sight to a ship for enough time. 

So, to stealthy approach a ship, they used different methods, like coming from the sun side, flying in the clouds, etc. 

Thats asspull. Source a single ww2 attack manual that said that. You're probably thinking of civilian liners and extra safety measures. Also this fallacy of "this isnt a sim" needs to go out a window. Its not a sim gets thrown around against balance issues that players dont benefit from. What if i suggested that shells go through islands or at least secondaries since its kinda the same as AA with regards to automation.

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4 hours ago, Mind_Expander said:

To be clear, I want island to block both animations AND damage from AA. 

 

Which quite frankly requires a complete revamp of flak mechanics as it is impossible with the current system.

Not impossible per se but WG seems happy with how bug ridden and shoddy current flak mechanics are.

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28 minutes ago, CaptainOkita said:

Thats asspull. Source a single ww2 attack manual that said that. You're probably thinking of civilian liners and extra safety measures. Also this fallacy of "this isnt a sim" needs to go out a window. Its not a sim gets thrown around against balance issues that players dont benefit from. What if i suggested that shells go through islands or at least secondaries since its kinda the same as AA with regards to automation.

Because it's the truth maybe? How on earth can you line up an attack on a target without seeing it? Contrary to what this games makes you believe it's hard to land bombs and such on moving ships (just look up the hit values during the sinking of Yamato fe ). So if you have to go in blind you can't line it up (as planes, contrary to this game, don't turn on a dime).

 

You know why people keep repeating that this game aint a sim?

Maybe, just maybe, because IT ISN't. It's more an arcade game than a shooter.

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45 minutes ago, 22cm said:

You are mixing some real life details with simulation ones, and they dont mix well.

IRL planes do not go close to mountains because of the air curents that exist there. Also aiming a bomb require having a line of sight to a ship for enough time. 

So, to stealthy approach a ship, they used different methods, like coming from the sun side, flying in the clouds, etc. 


The islands in the game are not really big enough to be classed as mountains, they're barely 1000 feet or so.  IRL WWII planes could fly much much higher than that.  The planes in the game fly at very low altitude, pretty much terrain-following flying.

IRL divebombers made their attacks from higher altitudes, not by skimming low then zooming up like they do in the game.

So the game itself is already not a realistic representation of IRL planes.   This is very noticeable when flying over islands, as planes actually slow down when coming back down from the height, where really they'd be rapidly gaining airspeed.

There is no option in the game to use sun or clouds to mask an approach, so that isn't really relevant here.


My main point is that AA firing through solid rock is clearly nonsense, denies the planes the benefit they should receive from dropping behind cover, and needs to be fixed.

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Hah don't forget the free flaks and damage a DD can get by turning his AA on and off rapidly and not being rendered in at all thanks to the render delay...

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2 hours ago, CaptainOkita said:

Thats asspull. Source a single ww2 attack manual that said that. You're probably thinking of civilian liners and extra safety measures. Also this fallacy of "this isnt a sim" needs to go out a window. Its not a sim gets thrown around against balance issues that players dont benefit from. What if i suggested that shells go through islands or at least secondaries since its kinda the same as AA with regards to automation.

No it s not. That s how it worked in real life. 

There are many poorly implemented things in the game, but you can not ask for both real life like and arcade mechanisms, depending on how they suit you. 

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8 minutes ago, 22cm said:

No it s not. That s how it worked in real life. 

There are many poorly implemented things in the game, but you can not ask for both real life like and arcade mechanisms, depending on how they suit you. 

Proof again and you are repeating that fallacy by advocating not to cherry pick realism when it suits you.

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11 hours ago, 22cm said:

 

There are many poorly implemented things in the game, but you can not ask for both real life like and arcade mechanisms, depending on how they suit you. 

 

I don't think it's unreasonable to ask that gunfire of any kind (including AA) is blocked by solid objects.  This isn't really a sim vs arcade thing, it's a very basic level of realism that I'm calling for here.   Solid rock blocks shots.  That's true in almost every arcade game I can think of.

In WoWs, islands block main guns, secondaries and torps, so why should AA be different?

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On 7/4/2019 at 7:57 PM, Mind_Expander said:

 

I don't think it's unreasonable to ask that gunfire of any kind (including AA) is blocked by solid objects.  This isn't really a sim vs arcade thing, it's a very basic level of realism that I'm calling for here.   Solid rock blocks shots.  That's true in almost every arcade game I can think of.

In WoWs, islands block main guns, secondaries and torps, so why should AA be different?

 

Of course it isn’t unreasonable. But no surprise the usual 5 suspects jump in to explain that this is fabulous - just on the ground that it is a disadvantage to the CV.

 

it is plain stupid - no shots (no matter how they are technically implemented) should go through solid obstacles. As easy as that.

 

 

On 7/4/2019 at 5:57 AM, El2aZeR said:

 

Which quite frankly requires a complete revamp of flak mechanics as it is impossible with the current system.

Not impossible per se but WG seems happy with how bug ridden and shoddy current flak mechanics are.

 

And? If they need to put in effort to fix it - why not?

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13 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

And? If they need to put in effort to fix it - why not?

 

The issue is that WG doesn't believe they need to. As such making flak behavior in regards to island cover consistent is about the only thing you can even remotely hope for to improve CV play.

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Don't hold your breath, so many things broken, yet WG have nothing better to do than fiddle and make the game worse, they have no clue, just expect to live with it pay for priviledge, wll wallet is closed until they smell the coffee and stop back slapping each other.

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10 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

The issue is that WG doesn't believe they need to. As such making flak behavior in regards to island cover consistent is about the only thing you can even remotely hope for to improve CV play.

 

WG has indeed some interesting believes. However - how hard can it be to implement a simpel LoS check before spawning clouds? The LoS seems to be existing no?

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10 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

However - how hard can it be to implement a simpel LoS check before spawning clouds? The LoS seems to be existing no?

 

Yes, however it is based on current LoS, not predicted LoS.

Which basically means this:

QCdQj7c.png

 

Note that this is also one of the ways invis flak can spawn. Because the damage zone of a flak wall will still be active but the flak animation will stop after you break LoS. And since the flak animation has render delay in a good chunk of cases it won't render at all as you broke LoS before the game could render flak.

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18 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Yes, however it is based on current LoS, not predicted LoS.

Which basically means this:

QCdQj7c.png

 

Note that this is also one of the ways invis flak can spawn. Because the damage zone of a flak wall will still be active but the flak animation will stop after you break LoS. And since the flak animation has render delay in a good chunk of cases it won't render at all.

Then there is this beauty

 

 

:cap_book:

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2 minutes ago, Panocek said:

Then there is this beauty

 

Yeah, read that on LWM's Ark Royal preview already.

Is glorious implementation camrade. :Smile_facepalm:

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On 7/4/2019 at 2:54 AM, Mind_Expander said:

To be clear, I want island to block both animations AND damage from AA.    It makes no sense for AA to be able to shoot through solid rock.     Main battery shells, secondary shells, torps, none of them can shoot through islands, why should AA?

 

Upvoting Obama 15072019000634.jpg

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11 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Yes, however it is based on current LoS, not predicted LoS.

Which basically means this:

QCdQj7c.png

 

Note that this is also one of the ways invis flak can spawn. Because the damage zone of a flak wall will still be active but the flak animation will stop after you break LoS. And since the flak animation has render delay in a good chunk of cases it won't render at all as you broke LoS before the game could render flak.

 

Is it only your own LoS or also your team’s?

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43 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

 

Is it only your own LoS or also your team’s?

Fairly certain, that it's team's.

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On 7/14/2019 at 8:50 PM, El2aZeR said:

 

Yes, however it is based on current LoS, not predicted LoS.

Which basically means this:

QCdQj7c.png

 

Note that this is also one of the ways invis flak can spawn. Because the damage zone of a flak wall will still be active but the flak animation will stop after you break LoS. And since the flak animation has render delay in a good chunk of cases it won't render at all as you broke LoS before the game could render flak.

 

This diagram is a very clear and very accurate illustration of the problem.   Thanks El2aZeR

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