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Thoughts on Yoshino

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After a couple days of battles with Yoshino, some great ones, some less great ones, I felt like writing down my thoughts so far on this ship, to see what others think about these matters, as well as to maybe give something for undecided people to think about before forking over the coal for this T10 supercruiser.

 

First off, I consider the ship kinda balanced, not bad, but in a rather unenviable spot, at least in regard to any role it might have in competitive. This is due to what it brings to the table... and what not.

 

Yoshino's main strengths offensively compared to other supercruisers are its HE dpm (due to good alpha and better RoF) and torpedoes. Just on base values, Yoshino matches Henri IV in HE dpm (which admittedly isn't much, but way better than any other supercruiser), before figuring in legendary module and MBRB on Henri (as well as the announced nerf, which would put Yoshino higher in regards to base dpm. I'm not considering reload vs range mod, as both cruisers usually would run reload mod with their exceptionally high base range and access to spotter plane). Yoshino also pulls off exceptional accuracy for a supercruiser, with a unique IJN supercruiser dispersion formula that starts out barely worse  than DDs at very close ranges, gets worse than cruiser dispersion at 7 km and will stay ahead of other battlecruisers up to 30 km (which means, at any realistic range). So not only does the ship have more HE dpm on paper, it lands more of its shot typically, with only competition being Stalingrad with its HE that is worse except for fire chance (cause Russian). Compared to other supercruisers, this means Yoshino to me is the sole supercruiser where I find myself playing mainly with HE loaded, instead of AP. This however also comes down to the the AP being punchier than normal cruiser AP, but far from the Soviet penetration, nor having the improved ricochet angles that keep Alaska viable. The torpedoes meanwhile are either a long range annoyance or used for torping people from up close, allowing Yoshino to be surprisingly brutal in a brawl, provided it can avoid blowing up from getting hit in the citadel.

 

Defensively, just don't get any hopes up. The citadel is massive, unlike stalingrad theres no 50 mm section to prevent getting overmatched, at best, be pleasantly surprised when people ricochet off the citadel. Yoshino cannot angle in any way that makes it exceptionally hard to citadel the ship if the enemy knows what they are doing, but you can try at least to not make it exceptionally easy. Extra repair party may sound nice, but usually is pointless. As a supercruiser, while not Stalingrad, the ship is pretty bulky and harder to steer than regular cruisers though and not very hard to hit. And it can be penned pretty easily. Two things I do want to touch on though, which I feel need to be pointed out:

  • Yoshino's 30 mm plating does not make it way more tanky than Azuma when it comes to citpens. It reduces the amount of overmatching normal pens through the deck or side on the upper belt. Anything that would hit and penetrate the citadel armour on Azuma basically has like 5 more mm to go through to hit the citadel of Yoshino. And whether you overmatch 30 mm or not has little to do with it. A Bismarck with 380s will citadel both just the same, or not, as anything where overmatch makes a difference between the two cruisers would not result in citadels. Similarly, just because something overmatches your armour does not mean it's an automatic citadel. Not rarely, the shells might ricochet off the interior citadel belt. Don't count on it though, nor count on enemies being dumb enough to shoot there if they got better areas to shoot at.
  • The area between the 30 mm torp belt and cit belt is spaced armour, allowing magical 0 damage pens. Reduces some of the vulnerability, but don't count on it.

Overall, the whole defense of the ship is lackluster and unreliable. It's not exceptionally bad, I'd still rate it better than Minotaur and against anything other than 38 cm guns, it's maybe on par with the DM. But this ship is just not very tanky.

 

Overall, the ship can do pretty decent. In the supercruiser fights, it actually craps on other supercruisers, because Stalingrad or alaska armour matter not to the Azuma and the closer it gets, the more threatening it can become due to the torps, while supercruisers cannot overmatch it. However, that is down to the main reason why I think this supercruiser kind of falls flat in competitive: It's basically the most cruiser-like supercruiser. While any other supercruiser gets jokes about being way too BB like, with Stalingrad able to tank Yamato shells, Alaska having underwater cit and 36 mm USN BB deck and Kronshtadt being a big chunk of hp with BB guns and waterline cit, the Yoshino is a long-range HE spammer that gives reliable dpm instead of huge alpha strike, when compared to other supercruisers. It gives concealment, instead of actual survivability. And the sad fact is, other cruisers just do its job better. at least in competitive. in randoms, you can still derp around.

 

What I also feel like pointing out from my experience in the ship is that people should not compare the Yoshino to Zao. That's two different kind of ships that just happen to carry the same flag. Their roles are not the same. Zao is a very stealthy cruiser with little hp, but nimble and with great harassing potential. Zao can scout, can support with accurate long-range HE and can be an utter pain in the aft when kiting. I do consider Zao one of the better counters to the Henri currently, as a Zao that knows how to lead and dodge is likely one of the most frustrating and lethal enemis a Henri can encounter. And Yoshino does not fit this bill. It is a long-range HE spammer, but what it provides is far more in line with Henri. A very thicc Henri that forgot how to speed boost or burst fire, in order to acquire the knowledge of long range torps. Running Yoshino in a CB lineup, likely would be in support of something stealthier that spots, like a Zao or a DD. And the main issue the ship has is not its crappy citadel protection (doesn't matter near as much against cruisers), but the lack of dpm and the ease with which enemy cruisers burn a Yoshino down. And given Henri, even with nerfs, is going to offer valuable advantages over the Yoshino, this ship will just not see much use in formats like CB, as it just offers nothing new that isn't better covered by others.

 

This includes also one last point I saw brought up: The possibility to spec IFHE on Yoshino to pen 57 mm and 60 mm plating on Yamato and Kremlin. Here, sadly, I have to say, that no, I also don't see that as a potential niche. First off, this would require such ships to be dominant enough to justify the pick. They don't seem to be. Secondly, running IFHE Hindenburg is likely a better idea. For one, Hindenburg is smaller. Even with reduced range, Hindenburg has an easier time dodging shells and Yamato, as well as Kremlin are very scary enemies to fight openly with Yoshino. Secondly, Hindenburg has way better raw dpm, especially with announced buff. Third, Hindenburg is tankier. Hindenburg basically has almost as large an hp pool, while burning for half as long, more extensive 30 mm section, some turtleback on cit, smaller target and same amount of repair parties. Even fires per minute is better on the German, given while it might have low fire chance, drastically lowered by the IFHE, properly equipped with flags, this ship still fires way more shells.

 

So, the only thing Yoshino eventually brings is 21.3 km base range on a cruiser and 20 km Shima torps. Anything else can be obtained with other cruisers. And neither of these two strengths is a great asset justifying the pick.

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Have to agree, Yoshie isn't BAD ship per se... but every other one is kinda better. Survivability leaves something to be desired, HE shells hit quite hard, but reload is lacking (compared to cruisers) and even "improved" dispersion is still below cruiser level. 20km torps are memes, 12km are late game brawls and maybe smoke sweeping only option, as any attempt to exert pressure especially early on will end up with you eating cits or thorough HEblasting.

 

Though if IFHE change gets through, Henri would lose its anti BB/Moskvagrad status due to losing 50mm HE pen.

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18 minutes ago, Panocek said:

Though if IFHE change gets through, Henri would lose its anti BB/Moskvagrad status due to losing 50mm HE pen.

Yoshino is less outclassed, but Hindenburg still is a more consistent pick at that point. Yoshino would trade dpm for extreme range on both armaments. But Hindenburg doesn't need the range, as it basically can dodge and tank at 15 km just fine (compared to Yoshino anyway).

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31 minutes ago, Panocek said:

 

Though if IFHE change gets through, Henri would lose its anti BB/Moskvagrad status due to losing 50mm HE pen.

And the ability to set fires with IFHE as I recall..

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2 minutes ago, lafeel said:

And the ability to set fires with IFHE as I recall..

There is no need for IFHE if it gives no benefit whatsoever:Smile_smile: no platings between 40mm and 48mm as I recall

 

6 minutes ago, Cagliostro_chan said:

Yoshino is less outclassed, but Hindenburg still is a more consistent pick at that point. Yoshino would trade dpm for extreme range on both armaments. But Hindenburg doesn't need the range, as it basically can dodge and tank at 15 km just fine (compared to Yoshino anyway).

I run all my cruisers except Croissants with Propulsion mod2, especially as Rudder shift time shown in port is from maximum to maximum, so in practice, Yoshie stock have 7s rudder time from neutral. Not very bad, but due to turning radius she relies more on WS part of WSAD hax

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13 minutes ago, Panocek said:

There is no need for IFHE if it gives no benefit whatsoever:Smile_smile: no platings between 40mm and 48mm as I recall

Atago.

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20 minutes ago, Cagliostro_chan said:

Atago.

And Roma. Which ENTIRELY justifies spending 4 points on skill to counter two ships two tier lower. Two more if we count faildivisioned Scharnhorst sisters' tiny stripe of upper hull

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1 hour ago, Panocek said:

There is no need for IFHE if it gives no benefit whatsoever:Smile_smile: no platings between 40mm and 48mm as I recall

Was never saying there was, in case you might not have noticed. :Smile-_tongue:

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I like my Yoshino. I admit it is super limited to long range HE and meme-torp spam role, and has no role in clan battles or any other competetive mode, but I find it a fun change of pace. I also do better in it statwise than my other supercruisers Alaska and Kron, although that's largely due to poor reward system of the game (only damage and kills matter). Not having a radar actually is sort of a positive for me, since with Alaska and Kron I try to make use of the radar way too much, which often get's me killed.

 

Got my second best random battle damage score (220k) in my second game in Yoshino :Smile_teethhappy:

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39 minutes ago, Panocek said:

And Roma. Which ENTIRELY justifies spending 4 points on skill to counter two ships two tier lower. Two more if we count faildivisioned Scharnhorst sisters' tiny stripe of upper hull

Don't forget 40 mm plating on hipper bow!

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1 minute ago, Cagliostro_chan said:

Don't forget 40 mm plating on hipper bow!

And Uncle Vlad upper hull/deck. Which will be within base HE pen capability:Smile_smile:

5 hours ago, Tanatoy said:

Now, HE shells of most ships penetrate the armor, thinner than 1\6 of the caliber. This rule is changed from "lower" to "equal or lower". Thus 152 mm shells will penetrate 25 mm plating;

240/6=40

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So, I've had pretty decent battle in Yoshie. Results aside, what I've noticed is her ammo cost

shot-19-07-06-00-05-40-0553.jpg

 

122745/501=245 per piece. And then wiki states 215/piece

https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:List_of_Gun_Ammo_Costs

:cap_book:

 

Which makes her the most expensive CB to pew pew with, as Stalingrad have 225 ammo cost, Kron 150 and Alaska 125

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13 hours ago, Panocek said:

Which makes her the most expensive CB to pew pew with, as Stalingrad have 225 ammo cost, Kron 150 and Alaska 125

At least not the most expensive torps. But that's some hefty ammo cost.

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6 minutes ago, Cagliostro_chan said:

At least not the most expensive torps. But that's some hefty ammo cost.

Granted, one does not simply lob 500 shells out of battlecruiser on daily basis

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i find yoshi vereh squishy, i get loads of citadels on that bloody thing. Even when it angles.

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Having played her now for a while, even a few battles with a meme secondary build, I've definitely developed a fondness for Yoshino.

 

What I definitely appreciate the most about her is her accuracy coupled with high shell velocity. It not only gives you reliable damage in most situations and at most ranges with HE, but also gives you the ability to reliably punish cruiser broadsides at a moments notice even at long ranges.

If you're in your average BB and you spot a cruiser sitting broadside on at long range, first you have to hope that you can swing your guns around before he notices and have them be loaded by then if you recently fired. Then even when you fire that volley, you're very likely to either mostly miss with a few overpens or at least miss the citadel only netting yourself a pen or two. With Yoshino you can reliably get citadels against most cruisers at substantial ranges and you might even get a second volley off if you're lucky.

While she shatters against most BBs at range, her AP shells are perfect against cruisers and seem to arm more reliably than BB AP. While Kron and Alaska pen more reliably, Yoshino can actually make sure the shells hit something vital. RN CLs hate her.

The disgustingly good close range accuracy also rewards successful pushes and not just sitting at max range, even if that's of course also viable.

 

The torps give you some added confidence in close range engagements and if you use the long range ones (with Torp Accel) you can happily throw them towards large concentrations of enemy ships or at a smoke screen, and get a hit or two.

 

Overall I think you can forgive a lot of weaknesses if you get good accuracy. The worst feeling is to make a play, pull it off, but not be able to capitalize on it because RNG.

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22 hours ago, Nechrom said:

Having played her now for a while, even a few battles with a meme secondary build, I've definitely developed a fondness for Yoshino.

 

What I definitely appreciate the most about her is her accuracy coupled with high shell velocity. It not only gives you reliable damage in most situations and at most ranges with HE, but also gives you the ability to reliably punish cruiser broadsides at a moments notice even at long ranges.

If you're in your average BB and you spot a cruiser sitting broadside on at long range, first you have to hope that you can swing your guns around before he notices and have them be loaded by then if you recently fired. Then even when you fire that volley, you're very likely to either mostly miss with a few overpens or at least miss the citadel only netting yourself a pen or two. With Yoshino you can reliably get citadels against most cruisers at substantial ranges and you might even get a second volley off if you're lucky.

While she shatters against most BBs at range, her AP shells are perfect against cruisers and seem to arm more reliably than BB AP. While Kron and Alaska pen more reliably, Yoshino can actually make sure the shells hit something vital. RN CLs hate her.

The disgustingly good close range accuracy also rewards successful pushes and not just sitting at max range, even if that's of course also viable.

 

The torps give you some added confidence in close range engagements and if you use the long range ones (with Torp Accel) you can happily throw them towards large concentrations of enemy ships or at a smoke screen, and get a hit or two.

 

Overall I think you can forgive a lot of weaknesses if you get good accuracy. The worst feeling is to make a play, pull it off, but not be able to capitalize on it because RNG.

Yoshino maybe is more accurate than other large cruisers, but compared to ye olde camrade Moskva, she feels tad lacking. That and shock when you can actually facetank battleships compared to Yoshino.

 

AP I find extraordinarily unpredictable - any cruiser broadside ends with overpens, but then planted three citadels into bow on Des Moines :cap_hmm: Against BBs on usual Yoshino ranges AP is ineffective, up close it gets better though. That and noice torpedo firing angles.

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14 hours ago, Panocek said:

AP I find extraordinarily unpredictable - any cruiser broadside ends with overpens, but then planted three citadels into bow on Des Moines :cap_hmm: Against BBs on usual Yoshino ranges AP is ineffective, up close it gets better though. That and noice torpedo firing angles.

Double cit-penned a Buffalo through the stern as he was running away. Also dev struck a Minotaur through his flat broadside at close range. I've not had issues with overpens like I'm used to with most BBs.

Actually also won a face-off with a Hinden (both of us at full HP) at close range by torping him 3 times consecutively as I was closing in to the point where he couldn't avoid the 3rd and last spread. 

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For someone like me that tends to be overly aggressive at round start and as a result often dies during mid match Yoshino is the perfect cure.

 

It forces you to be careful and limit yourself to support only at the start. And then when the ranks thin out you can, if you wish, satisfy your thirst for blood pushing cruisers end game.

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Honestly she is as easy to citadel as you would expect of a super big IJN citadel  ehm cruiser.

But if you don't play her like a tanky ship and instead dodge shells she is quite durable thanks to the big hp pool.

My survival rate with this thing is 75%, totally insane. 

 

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5 hours ago, Desteban said:

Honestly she is as easy to citadel as you would expect of a super big IJN citadel  ehm cruiser.

But if you don't play her like a tanky ship and instead dodge shells she is quite durable thanks to the big hp pool.

My survival rate with this thing is 75%, totally insane. 

 

I mean, it isn't hard to survive in a ship that has over 21 km range before you account for potential range mod and spotter plane. The challenge is to get the necessary impact to win games. And well... to lead your shots far enough to still hit things at ~28 km.

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11 hours ago, Cagliostro_chan said:

I mean, it isn't hard to survive in a ship that has over 21 km range before you account for potential range mod and spotter plane. 

I stay between 14 and 21 km unless I can ambush someone. She just isn't a brawler, but at 14km you can already dodge shells and be usefull.

Not to mention she gets 3 base heals.

 

11 hours ago, Cagliostro_chan said:

The challenge is to get the necessary impact to win games. And well... to lead your shots far enough to still hit things at ~28 km.

I think she is pretty good at adapting to changes in the flanks. With rudder modules she turns pretty fast and can kite away easily.

She is bacially a big Zao that can also delete cruisers if all the stars align and someone makes a mistake. 

Put 39k into a Mino at the start of a round at about ~16km, squadmate got the other 1k.

With 21km range and you can basically always shoot a target, so you are never useless even when too far off the battle.

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1 minute ago, Desteban said:

Not to mention she gets 3 base heals.

Doesn't matter, because you run out of recoverable hp. Only cruisers like Moskva, Stalingrad or Alaska can get decent value out of a 5th repair party, due to being able to shatter lots of HE so that significant amount of damage is dealt with fires. Yoshino, just like Hindenburg will just succumb to normal pen damage before it can use that heal, if it doesn't just lose most of its hp to citadels.

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8 hours ago, Cagliostro_chan said:

Doesn't matter, because you run out of recoverable hp. Only cruisers like Moskva, Stalingrad or Alaska can get decent value out of a 5th repair party, due to being able to shatter lots of HE so that significant amount of damage is dealt with fires. Yoshino, just like Hindenburg will just succumb to normal pen damage before it can use that heal, if it doesn't just lose most of its hp to citadels.

4 repair partys are enough for me since I rather take other cpt skills. But those I can use without any problems, infact I rarely get citadeled.

Even with just AP pen dmg I can usually heal enough to stay in the game a long time.

 

After looking at some screen shots there are even times when I am either not even hit or shot at by AP at all.

But if I am it usually looks like this(don't have another screen with AP shots at me):

Spoiler

shot-19_06.27_22_29.45-0371.thumb.jpg.3c0387df7488c56f16fd5773e71d30db.jpg

 

19 AP hits for 24k dmg, not great but not really a problem either.

 

Starting around 14-15 km BBs have a very hard time hitting your citadel, I mostly get hit with overpens and a pen here and there.

I can remember I had a game where a Freddy and a Kreml put 30k into me each and hit me around once for every 1k dmg they made.

But like I said I just prefere to keep my range and troll people, that way she is super durable, difference to other ships is she has the armament

to keep that playstyle effective.

 

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