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0.8.5 CV in depth feedback

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Hello everyone I will try to spare words as mych as possible.

 

So first introduction:
I'm confident I'm a experienced CV player. I played in both RTS and current system, scored rank 1 in current ranked season almost exclulively with CV so I believe I'm qualified enought to give that feedback.

 

First of all. CVs needed some nerf or balancing as they were definetly overpowered. Only ships I deemed a threat were Minotaur and Worcester (same for WIP Smoleńsk and Coulbert). Ships such as Des Moines were largely powerless against CV's power.

However this changes doesnt resolve any problem. It just shifts it. Now that queue almost doesnt include CVs at all.

 

With current small but very significant AA change I see CVs going back into RTS era in that field with some excetions that I will cover further down.

 

1. AA regained it's old strength more or less, but there is flak on top of that and it has devastating effect.

2. Now all ships have significant AA. Bad, decent AA - count losses, good to great AA - squadron wiped. (For example I have seen Izmaił which that scored 40+ planes down facing tier VIII carrier)

3. This requires CV players to know their target, choose it wise and wait for right moment. But RTS carrier if done that well scored significant damage or straight up devastating strike.

     Current CVs gameplay is all about multiple strikes that do less damage and are less significant. This completly destroy entire concept of CV rework. You have to strike and recall squadron back or get planes wiped.

    This makes multiple attack runs useless and without purpose other that providing bigger health pool, but it's still a waste

4. RTS carried had multiple teamplay aspects to fulfill when looking for strike opportunity: Countering enemy carrier, spotting, spotting torpedoes. Currently you can only do spotting duty and it means dropping DPS role when committed.

 

I would also like to mention that getting uptiered when playing CV is an absolute abstraction. And this comes from pov of USN CVs that are known for most durable planes.

Ships such as IJN CVs and Graf Zeppelin suffer greatly, , while Saipan and Indomitable (not released RN tier VIII premium CV) simply doesnt work at all. And when uptiered you can just leave match.

 

Purpose of healing party for torpedo squadron also got nulified with current update. It simply doesnt work if you dont catch flaks (and you shouldnt).

 

Only ships I found doing somewhat well are Enterprise and Kaga. When top tier they do well enough thanks to large aircraft numbers and fast recovery.

 

My recommendation is following:

Two updates from now if issuse is not even addressed I would reccomend to issue refund ticket for following premium ships: Saipan and Graf Zeppelin - as they simply doesnt work.

 

Discussion is welcomed :)

 

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I had a few battles in Graf and, since I always end up in tier 10 anyway, did better than before this AA change. I mean, I lose planes either way, but with the buffs I was actually able to make damage even in tier 10 battle. And not insignificant damage, I'm talking ~100k dmg :Smile-_tongue:

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In my honest opinion all CV players should ger refund, last several patches are nerf without much clue what is happening from any of the WG staff, no testing, not even noticing in patch notes of PTS that change is comming. All of this mean the company have no idea what they are doing, sadly...

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[THESO]
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11 minutes ago, Filipin00 said:

I had a few battles in Graf and, since I always end up in tier 10 anyway, did better than before this AA change. I mean, I lose planes either way, but with the buffs I was actually able to make damage even in tier 10 battle. And not insignificant damage, I'm talking ~100k dmg :Smile-_tongue:

You're mixing things up. The OP is talking about the massive, poorly tested and poorly thought-out blanket nerf to all CV's. 

Graf Zeppelin got a buff, so it suffered a lot less. Also I imagine the nerf is such that it affects Graf Zeppelin less since its planes are so fast.

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[PLAN]
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I have the Sipan. I'm 41st on EU server by dmg at 110 dmg on average and play very conservatively. right now. I get deplaned in 10 minutes. Before I only got deplaned 1ce ever before.

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15 minutes ago, andymiky said:

I have the Sipan. I'm 41st on EU server by dmg at 110 dmg on average and play very conservatively. right now. I get deplaned in 10 minutes. Before I only got deplaned 1ce ever before.

I hope they scrapped Indomitable, because they dont have other options for that ship now x3

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38 minutes ago, asalonen said:

You're mixing things up. The OP is talking about the massive, poorly tested and poorly thought-out blanket nerf to all CV's. 

Graf Zeppelin got a buff, so it suffered a lot less. Also I imagine the nerf is such that it affects Graf Zeppelin less since its planes are so fast.

First of all I'm not mixing things up, I know it's about all carriers. And second, while GZ has fast planes, they're still not fast enough...nor fast as they were before 0.8.4

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current update CV play is dead to me... will not be back unless improvment is made.

 

also with the brop bomb patten nerf to stop us using them on DD's... in all 3 games played today (sorry could not stomach any more than that ) no matter how i dropped the bombs and what direction.. it seemed the spread on a DD was at the most outer points for every bomb.   so rocket planes and torps are the only real option now.. trouble is you cant cross drop any more, your planes will die to AA before then, and the rocket planes... well unless its a very very poor AA ship they get wiped before you even get close. (on some cruisers they will not hit to LMFAO

 

Also the games are still the same as before.... the team with the less brainless players win, only diffrence now is in a CV i cant influence the game any more.

 

Best fix is up the damage on hits for torps bombs and rockets... if "de-planeing" is what WGing is after let us do some damage before it happens.

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[A41]
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I have to agree change to AA is untterly devasting to CVs, torp bomber heal is useless and losing a full flight before a strike is very common when bottom tier making cvs pointless(who want to play when they cannot hit anything because of enemy defenses) I managaged to get to top 100 shokaku players as i learnt the inns and out of cv play had one game yesterday where i managed 3k whole damage in first 10 minutes because all my planes were destroyed before they made it to an attack

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From my side, as CV layer, (mostly USN) i find quite embarrassing that a tier 8 DD  like kagero, is able to nuke entirely a bomber squadron, also even if correctly aimed, there is no possibility to hit him not on moving target nor on a static one, either with low drop or high drop, simply the bombs fall near...  the rockets even with tiniest aiming circle have an RNG spread that make 2/3 rocket for wave go to target even against a static grosse kurfurst (the largest ship of the game)

 

Even with fully armored planes,  and with full hp build/modules not having to drop torps without having the entire  squadron wiped out from a ship woth low AA it's simply embarrassing.

 

Honestly i can understand that the CV had to be balanced, but like this they are simply ineffective, unable to spot because you get nuked, no matter how much you struggle to avoid Flaks... the planes goes down one after another,  it's useless to defend with fighters friendly ships if they are in close combat with other ships because ENEMY dual purpose secondaries shot at ships AND planes (a duel purpose can shot at both but one target at time otherwise it's like they have doubled guns) rendering the fighters simply useless.

 

The rework was supposed to lower the damage of the CV making them do more attack... now i dropped from a steady 120k a game to  20/30k...  also tryed with fast replenish skill and modules build, but the issue of being de-planeing for the second half of the game, no matter what you do, is simply unplayable. 

 

most of the games i made until 0.8.5 i ended going capping with CV and battling with secondary for selfdefense against a DD because i'm not able anymore even to defend myself against ships.

 

JPN got simply erased asap they encounter ANY AA bubble

UK able to deal 1 strike,  for each squadron wiped and struggling to replenish

USN got 1 strike, got nuked in maneuvering out to try strike

Graaf Zeep  SLOW (even with the buff) planes make them simply free exp for the opponents

 

now the play stile become, take off, run to target,  aim, strike, press FF to recall asap and lose less planes, rinse and repeat... is not as they supposed the rework they invested is supposed to be.

 

we (as CV player) we don't want the [I WIN] button... but to battle against enemy to prove we can b effective in battle and deal with enemy Cv, right now, we are simply inconsistent, or better, we are simply giving others free exp and wasting time , money , flags, and camo trying to do something.

 

i've testes also (with the agreement of both teams in chat) to do nothing in battle, not even one plane or fighters.... well enemy CV was not able to go past 30k damage as hakuryu... my presence was simply unnoticed...

 

That's not the game i wish to play.

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CV rework was to make CVs less for the noobicums and for all...  So less skilled players was able to play CV with out the enemy destroying all there planes... Problem was making a class to play for the masses... Ment the noobicums could turn that in there favor to. 

 

Current update has handed back to only noobicums will do well. 

 

Will thing change well yes.. Heal is now almost redundant... Any up tier game makes rocket planes just free xp for the enemy.  (do I need to put a xp flag on... Naa just hope you pull a kaga game lol) 

 

Will DD still be no1 target... YUP

 

Will WGing make a good counter balance patch or will they mess it up again... Do I even have to answer :p

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[OP]
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I honestly dont understand what the use of the heal buff is at this moment.

Beside that. WG put up the amazing work of nerving CVS even further down the ground where solid gameplay is getting punished to crap.
Planes just getting wiped now so the purpose of t10 cvs is now to destroy the tier8s.

I disdagree with above to say that t8 dds can wipe the t10 planes easy. Yes it ocassionally happens. But its not consistend information.
The average damage per game just dropped from me from about ~140k (which is normal for t10s) to about ~100k (which is t8 material)
Like why does WG wish to nerve CV that much.

CVs are not carrying the game anyway since the last patches and its getting worse and worse.

PS: i can still do about 8~10k salvos with DB on DDs. That aint fixed at all yet.

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I find that i can still avoid losing to many planes, and to a point can still do reasonable damage, what i do find is that its hard to support against the main fleet of the enemy, to much AA to warrent the attack :/

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[OH-NO]
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I play CVs predominantly. I am not the best player, but certainly not the worst. I believe I'm average to good. But the karma reporting needs looking at. All I have to do is enter a battle as a CV player and I get abuse and hassle in chat. Surely if players mainly just report CV players a certain amount of consideration and statistical analysis should be done by Wargaming to spot these biased players. I am now a proud zero karma player, gone down from 26 in just a month because none CV players are spitting their dummies out when I sink them, especially DD players I spot and sink. I know that karma isn't all that important and I am a grown man (63) playing for fun and it shouldn't matter so much. So why have the karma at all? It's just another little niggling and annoying thing to diminish the FUN of the game in my view. 

 

And now, unleash the inevitable torrent of abusive and childish responses. Who will be the first contender?

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1 hour ago, Twanky said:

I play CVs predominantly. I am not the best player, but certainly not the worst. I believe I'm average to good. But the karma reporting needs looking at. All I have to do is enter a battle as a CV player and I get abuse and hassle in chat. Surely if players mainly just report CV players a certain amount of consideration and statistical analysis should be done by Wargaming to spot these biased players. I am now a proud zero karma player, gone down from 26 in just a month because none CV players are spitting their dummies out when I sink them, especially DD players I spot and sink. I know that karma isn't all that important and I am a grown man (63) playing for fun and it shouldn't matter so much. So why have the karma at all? It's just another little niggling and annoying thing to diminish the FUN of the game in my view. 

 

And now, unleash the inevitable torrent of abusive and childish responses. Who will be the first contender?

 

I absolutely agree that verbal bullying and insults are not necessary. I don't mainly play CVs, I play all classes but, God, take a CV to a random battle and get either reported or harassed for no reason other than just because I took CV.

I play other ship classes too, and I get attacked by CVs in battles, and I don't complain about it. I think CVs add variety to the game, balance some aspects of it, so that no ship class has total dominance over the others, or to prevent camping and stuff.

 

It's just people find it easier to complain about everything than anything else...

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[H8RNG]
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Aside from the fact that the whole karma system is about as relevant and impactful as a chocolate teapot, I do end up with more positive than negative karma in CV's, so I must get something right most of the time.

 

The latest alterations have completely flipped the table (...again...) to the point where -2 tier ships from T6 and beyond ( e.g. T6 surface, T8 air; T8 surface, T10 air) can absolutely rip planes to shreds which is imbalanced in itself. Never remember it being that bad, even from RTS days (I was awful in that point and click spreadsheet iteration).

 

T8 non AA specced torpedo boat DD's should not be a significant AA threat to a T10 survivability specced CV, but currently they're an effective death sentence to an lesser skilled CV player now (I learned my lesson the first time after I lost an entire squadron of Audacious rocket planes to a Kagero in the time it took to aim up, trigger a strike from 4.2km with speed boost being used on day 1 of the patch). 

 

I think instead of this blanket buff to AA, do something similar to the unification radar and hydro such as setting maximum capability values for each individual tier rather than magicking up mythical AA capability (Kremlin/Lenin looking at you) and actually TEST it for a significant period before implementing it, rather than the "surprise, this is a thing" principle that was applied this time around with the single PTS cycle.

 

Also, as much fun as it is bullying DD's with them, remove rocket planes, that'll remove at least half of the whining about DD's being underpowered against CV's. It is actually possible to do significant, consistent damage to DD's with brit carpet bombs, it just requires patience and practice. 

 

As for the spotting aspect, you know that lovely overlapping radio net principle that was implemented for scout tanks in WoT? For the love of all that's good, implement that. It will prevent CV permaspotting to everything. 

 

 

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There's so few CVs around, and I'm not playing that much (too hot!). So i can't really say if the AA is overpowered or not. Seems to have to returned to RTS levels of players. Unless I drop down to tier 4 for a game in the clubson - and at that level i have zero AA, even if it's buffed!

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[-YR-]
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On ‎6‎/‎28‎/‎2019 at 11:52 AM, Erycson55 said:

1. AA regained it's old strength more or less, but there is flak on top of that and it has devastating effect.

2. Now all ships have significant AA. Bad, decent AA - count losses, good to great AA - squadron wiped. (For example I have seen Izmaił which that scored 40+ planes down facing tier VIII carrier)

3. This requires CV players to know their target, choose it wise and wait for right moment. But RTS carrier if done that well scored significant damage or straight up devastating strike.

     Current CVs gameplay is all about multiple strikes that do less damage and are less significant. This completly destroy entire concept of CV rework. You have to strike and recall squadron back or get planes wiped.

    This makes multiple attack runs useless and without purpose other that providing bigger health pool, but it's still a waste

4. RTS carried had multiple teamplay aspects to fulfill when looking for strike opportunity: Countering enemy carrier, spotting, spotting torpedoes. Currently you can only do spotting duty and it means dropping DPS role when committed.

 

Dear Erycson55

I wish WG will read your post because in 4 points you have summarized ALL. 

I totally agree with you . CV went under a series of nerf since the 080 release. Some of them were really needed like the removal of Radio Location Skill. Others have made the line more challanging but still playable with satisfaction. 

Point 3 is the most accurate description of HOW CV WORKS under the current system. So it is strinking incredible to me that nobody at WG realized that the new AA system would penalize too much the way ALL CV works.

I remember the days when Hakuryu at the start could simply launch all its TB squadron and cross torp and delete (or completely cripple )  any Tier X ship.

In this regard the new system is way better. But the current update result too much punitive for any CV. I have played a couple of game Yesterday, Ships are Clustering even more then before. And there is little you can do against.

It never happened to me to get zero TB left on Hakuryu, it happened Yesterday after 10 minutes. And I was predropping to reduce the number of the squadron to spare some planes.

  

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1 hour ago, Beaker71 said:

There's so few CVs around, and I'm not playing that much (too hot!). So i can't really say if the AA is overpowered or not. Seems to have to returned to RTS levels of players. Unless I drop down to tier 4 for a game in the clubson - and at that level i have zero AA, even if it's buffed!

 

Finally got a CV game, enterprise vs my grozo - i shot down 20 planes (nothing unusual), but he got 3 rocket strikes against me , for about 6k damage - so those claiming that an AA DD can melt planes without risk, are wrong. The CV finished top of their team, so was pretty good (considering it was tier X game).

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[PASOK]
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First of all iam not a good cv player my average amount of damge is about 68 kilo with the recent changes i strugle to pass 50 kilo in haku whats the point? i have ships wha can do  damage like yoshino , zao, kourfoust with eaz and i feel that the prevous aa system was fine right now every attack ends with significal loses of planes making the second attack imposible if cvs  are not allowed to do alpha damage or damage over time what is left spoting ?Nobody likes that everybody will swich to ships who are allowed to damage at the end of the day any ship that refuses to go with the fleet , take aa skills and do evasive manouvres diserves the punishment and the cv has the right at least to do the same amount of damage like other classes like battleships of the same teir

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On 6/28/2019 at 11:52 AM, Erycson55 said:

 

 

1. AA regained it's old strength more or less, but there is flak on top of that and it has devastating effect.

 

old AA strenght: enter into AA range of wooster + she uses def AA = chao planes. (not to mention longer AA ranges) 

8,6km AA bubbles were making the CV players life really hard.

 

before 8.5 AA was useless a.f. i hope you are right and the new AA is as powerful as the pre-rework AA...

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On 6/29/2019 at 7:36 PM, Tugnut said:

CV rework was to make CVs less for the noobicums and for all...  So less skilled players was able to play CV with out the enemy destroying all there planes... Problem was making a class to play for the masses...

this has been the fairytale WG has been telling to community. main reason was to make CVs suitable to console. 

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[-YR-]
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Played several games today in CV from tier IV to X. 

What I observed is at Tier IV AA is really not a big problem unless you yolo a group of 3 or more ships. So 085 has given low tier very few advantage.

At middle Tier the situation is different. If Tier VI Cv is top tier the game is still playable. CV lose more planes but can work decently. Tried 2 games in Furios and 2 in Rjuyo, damage around 60K but never got left out of planes.

Instead when you are bottom tier the difficulty start to increase a lot. Especially with JAP that have low health planes.

At Tier VII I had a game as top tier and that was OK. Still more plane lost but capable of doing damage. The second one I was bottom tier vs tier X and that was a nightmare.

Surprisingly at Tier X the situation is just like beeing bottom tier. Perhaps I was a bit unlucky cause enemy team had Always very strong AA cruisers and BBs. But really IMO at tier X something should be done. 

In the other game I had fun both when I won and when I lost, But at Tier X you spend half or more of the game spotting and waiting for the right moment. And that's not fun. 

If a have to be a spotter I don't need a CV. Better use an hot air baloon. 

 

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[ENUF]
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Console Adaptation going well. Dont want to give an in depth feedback, why waste my time. CVs are a useless class now I can do double or more dmg and double the game impact with other classes. Nicely ruined, WG. No idea, no plan, "lets just try this new AA". Whatever. Game is dying anyway. Torp Heal OP, AR gg. "We are aware of excessive plane loss..."...joke.

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