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HMSmurf

Submarines

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8 minutes ago, HMSmurf said:

Thoughts?

Would it be possible?

For me it's a big omission from the game

After glorious CV rework we can't wait to have another meta-shifting addition to the game.

 

I don't want them in this game at all. If they are included, my expection is that they need at least months to balance them out. If they even can get the CV problem fixed until then. Which in my point of view isn't even possible.

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Many shenanigans will occur as IJN had subs which carried aircraft.

Can you imagine the carnage, not just stealth torping but stealth ships(subs) launching stealth aircraft with stealth torps?

:cap_popcorn:

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[ALONE]
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Vor 1 Stunde, Freyr_90 sagte:

Perhaps you missed last year's April fool's event? 

The client-crashing submarine from the Aprils-fools was not that nice. But the Halloween-subs were great. Really hope they will return :Smile_great:

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[-AP-]
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I really hope we never ever get subs added as a regular part of this game. They dont fit the game mechanics or the meta

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Here is an article that stats submarines will be introduced in 2019.....

 

https://venturebeat.com/2018/09/18/world-of-warships-will-get-submarines-in-2019/

 

And i don't think he meant only the Haloween event...

 

"Subs cause big changes

With the addition of submarines, the gameplay will go through big changes. Battleships and carriers will now be vulnerable to submarines, which can sneak around anywhere on the map. But the visibility for submarines will be limited. Subs will be able to see ships at periscope depth, but surface ships will also be able to spot subs that are barely below the surface. Subs can move fast on the surface, but they are pretty slow underwater.

So Nikolaev said that the game will preserve its “rock-paper-scissors” balance between the different types of ships.

The submarines are a major effort. It has 180 ships across seven different nation trees. It also has 100 premium ships that are available for purchase. Each can take as much as six months to fully design and test. Even the insides of the ships, which players almost never see, are fully built into the designs. Wargaming had to delay the launch of British destroyers until this week, since a lot of the documents related to the designs were still secret."

 

If that is all true they are (still)  worked on as we speak. If it is true it will be sure to ruffle some feathers......quite some number of  inflexible players already cannot come to grips with CV.....this will send them to the sanatorium.....

 

But anyone can place content on the internet that is hard to verify. I don't know if this is/was real, still being executed or postponed by now. I certainly hope not.

 

Btw : i once piloted a modern (nuclear) sub well before the Haloween event and i think it was a WOWS joke ( or was it WT ? ) but i cannot find anything about it anymore. That indicates they have been working for years on this.....so much investment in it, creating underwater enviroments and sub models.......i don't think they would back out of it.

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I could see submarines working as a scenario hunting convoys, however trying to make them work in random battles would be a terrible idea.

 

It would just be too complex to do anytime soon and I honestly doubt it would be a good thing to even attempt, and looking at the problems WG have had with the CV rework I'm not confident they could balance submarines. 

 

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36 minutes ago, lovelacebeer said:

I could see submarines working as a scenario hunting convoys, however trying to make them work in random battles would be a terrible idea.

 

It would just be too complex to do anytime soon and I honestly doubt it would be a good thing to even attempt, and looking at the problems WG have had with the CV rework I'm not confident they could balance submarines. 

 

 

Well according to the article they are meaning to put them in randoms.....why else would they be "rock-paper-scissors" balanced in the meta ? 

 

I don't see any balancing or fitting in problems either, just a lot of inflexible players that want the game left in the state it was a year back or even longer ago.....and that will never happen.

 

Besides...half of the stealth loving DD players with high skills that resist the very thought of submarines high and low will probably be the first ones to embrace it and become aces in that, as it will be even stealthier and not suffer air attack ( most of the time ) like DD do.

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17 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

 

Well according to the article they are meaning to put them in randoms.....why else would they be "rock-paper-scissors" balanced in the meta ? 

 

I don't see any balancing or fitting in problems either, just a lot of inflexible players that want the game left in the state it was a year back or even longer ago.....and that will never happen.

 

Besides...half of the stealth loving DD players with high skills that resist the very thought of submarines high and low will probably be the first ones to embrace it and become aces in that, as it will be even stealthier and not suffer air attack ( most of the time ) like DD do.

 

I have no doubt WG are at least looking at the possibility to include submarines, they want to grow the game and attract as many players as possible. 

 

However I cannot see that it would work in practice, and whilst yes we do have a rather conservative player base that's not my reason for being opposed to submarines being added. 

 

They really won't balance well, for most of the period in navel combat the game is based on submarines were slow even on the surface and submerged painfully slow which would greatly limit their options. Also this would only help to reinforce the extremely passive (defensive) nature of a lot of players, something WG do try to get away from. 

 

I do agree DD captains probably would find dealing with submarines the easiest because for the most part DDs were the main counter to submarines, Battleship captains however would not appreciate having to deal with a class they cannot fight back against. Also the whole dynamic of submarine vs CV could prove extremely hard to balance. 

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for most of the period in navel combat the game is based on submarines were slow even on the surface and submerged painfully slow which would greatly limit their options.

 

Perhaps but subs altered naval warfare forevermore during this period. It seems odd not having them. Whether it would ever work mechanics wise I have no idea. 

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[PARAZ]
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How about no?

WG can't balance surface ships, they can't balance CVs, they can't balance the economy, the last thing we need is another aspect that requires fine balancing which WG is too incompetent for.

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1 hour ago, Beastofwar said:

 

Well according to the article they are meaning to put them in randoms.....why else would they be "rock-paper-scissors" balanced in the meta ? 

 

I don't see any balancing or fitting in problems either, just a lot of inflexible players that want the game left in the state it was a year back or even longer ago.....and that will never happen.

 

Besides...half of the stealth loving DD players with high skills that resist the very thought of submarines high and low will probably be the first ones to embrace it and become aces in that, as it will be even stealthier and not suffer air attack ( most of the time ) like DD do.

Hmm maybe we can have a Flying boat segment to the game too, i wouldn't mind a Catalina or a Short Sunderland, dropping those depth charges from the air, no idea how it could even work, but hey if we are on about daft ideas:Smile_trollface:

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I agree with the 'no' group.   If subs were added there would need to be chsnges to DDs to allow them to use asdic and drop depth charges.

 

Also when submerged submarines move very slowly and need to use ambush tactics.

 

Personally, I think they should be deployed around the map edges (and as static or extremely slow moving objects) as AI with 5km torps........

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6 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

How about no?

WG can't balance surface ships, they can't balance CVs, they can't balance the economy, the last thing we need is another aspect that requires fine balancing which WG is too incompetent for.

Shhh... Don't say those things! You might end up with penalty applied to your planes by Political Commissar!

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The assumption is always they would spend the whole game submerged if.... there time submerged is set as a consumable it would add an interesting layer of play(20knots on the surface is more than workable as a starting point).... when do you dive? when do you try to slip away? it would also give the DDs a burst of life which is badly needed

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If those mentioned 180 models and 100 premiums ( could easiliy be as they were used in both WW's and well before and beyond by all major nations in game )  are not confused with the other ship content in game  WG will never back out of bringing them into the game. All the time spend on building the models,  develop fitting them in the game,  building underwater enviroment and testing them will have costs tens of thousands of euro's/dollars and very likely much more......Game companies  develop such things to earn it back with a profit !

 

So saying "no" will not prevent their introduction. We don't get to have a say in that anyway. Whatever your stats are or what you think of yourself to be to WG.

 

As a reason why they would not function speed is mentioned.....but they probably can achieve dreadnough (US) BB speed above water. Nothing strange to the game as we know it. Many even know the speed of a Katori.....it gets around....

 

Destroyers  and Light Cruisers probably get to hunt submarines down with already detailed modellend depth charges (rolling racks/mortars)  and hedgehogs, why wouldn't they be happy about that ? And as far as i can see a lot of Destroyer players that like the ultra concealment playstyle will swicth to submarines quickly.

 

The game can't stay a tier 1-3 playground for only 3 classes. It must evolve or become obsolete.....and the latter is no option for all the people working at WG/WOWS.

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If the current logic for working AA is because of CV's in the game then for subs the CA's and DD's will need depth charges and BB's need deployable torpedo nets when stationary. That would just be a byproduct of trying to balance submarines because for any offensive capability the sub has you have to factor in the counter offensive or defensive capability. It will never happen. 

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They might be ok if they are PvE only, they already have those models just make some nice op for them and they will be fine, even have the depth charges already worked out for the bots

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11 minutes ago, 250swb said:

If the current logic for working AA is because of CV's in the game then for subs the CA's and DD's will need depth charges and BB's need deployable torpedo nets when stationary. That would just be a byproduct of trying to balance submarines because for any offensive capability the sub has you have to factor in the counter offensive or defensive capability. It will never happen. 

 

DD fire from stealth and are speedy and agile.....why should a sub not be able to fire from "stealth" = persicope depth being slowed down to E-motor speeds  ? How would that be OP in any way ??

 

Both can be found using hydrophones, dd and persicope depth/surfaced subs can be found with radar and submerged subs on higher tiers can be hunted with asdic and sonar. WG might even make sub life miserable with ASW aircraft....

 

So what is the ( balancing ) problem ? That they force players to adapt to another balance again, not being able to have playground tier 1-3 gameplay ? Adapting is good for the older brain, forces it to become more flexible again.....perfect for the WOWS playerbase that may be somewhat older.

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The trouble is - what counters a sub?

 

BBs didn't have ASW weaponry. Nor did most cruisers beyond the smallest CLs. So two classes are immediately unable to fight back - well done.

 

-Aha! I hear you say. 'DDs'

 

Well DDs in WOWS are not having a great time as it is - generally getting radar'd and shot up, rocketed by CVs and generally being forced to play more passively than they ever have. ASW weaponry of the WOWS timeframe is also short range - either lobbing charges ahead of the ship (Hedgehog, RBUs) or dropping them off the back (having had to sail OVER your target and hope they don't torp you before). Buff the DDs to be TOO effective and the sub class is dead on arrival.

 

That leaves CVs - which will just dump on a sub the same way they dump on a DD now. They just have to wait around until the sub (inevitably) surfaces. You can't exactly run away at underwater speeds, a sub on the surface isn't as quick as a DD and won't have smoke so will be utterly stuffed. So the sub class is again dead on arrival - unless they in some way hobble a CV's ability to hunt subs (how?).

 

So in summary half the player ships in the game would be helpless against subs, DDs aren't the miracle answer to subs (what happens if your team's DD player(s) is a donut?) and CVs as always are an almighty balancing nightmare vs. them.

 

As others have said above, given that WG haven't the slightest clue how to sort out the balance above the water - subs are just a disaster waiting to happen. 

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Problem is this is in its core an arcade game, dont know if you ever watched how a real sub hunt worked in ww2 era let alone before, escorts would dump depth charges for ages to maybe score a hit on one of them, hunting down subs would be much to boring for most and would ruin the game flow

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