Chung Mu nerfs and YY buffs

[GulvkluderGuld]

So the WG excel sheets finally noticed what everybody (who actually play their game) could tell from the start, when they nerfed the YY:

- The tier IX became literally a better ship than the tier X.

 

Yuri, bring that hammer down! 

 

https://medium.com/@devblogwows/st-competitive-modes-balance-and-other-changes-73c076f49f5b?fbclid=IwAR1vH-goRZz-ekK2W5ftyEVP3ZzH2RMTWHEedgDmg-1da8LYBqihWmRkVoY

 

Pan-Asian destroyer Chung Mu, tier IX:

• Main battery guns reload time increased from 3.3 to 3.5 s;
• Torpedo tubes reload time increased from 106 to 122 s.
•  

Pan-Asian destroyer Yueyang, tier X:

• Torpedo tubes reload time lowered from 156 to 146 s.
•  

After the changes to Yueyang in the update 0.7.11 this destroyer was balanced with classmates in terms of impacting the battle, but Chung Mu was superior to other tier IX destroyers in battle efficiency. The changes will balance these Pan-Asian ships with other destroyers considering the changes to the game after the 0.7.11 update.

[SirAmra]

Well, as an old WG player (since 2011) I've always stated that they can't balance stuff.

They either buff to much or they nerf to much, hence I'm against all balancing from WG(Not all all, but u get the picture).

I honestly had no problems with the old YY stats since it had no torps against DDs and had "only" guns to rely on.

And I want the YY back to its old state.

[Bear__Necessities]

Bearing in mind Chung Mu can’t torp in a knife fight at enemy DD’s they want to take away its only strength in said encounter.

 

Well done WG. Another cluster incoming..

[Lootboxer]

A too small buff to YY IHMO, a bit too much of the nerf to Chung Mu now Fletcher is much better. I am looking forward the buff to Gearing longer torps. Didn't use them since I've mounted 10.5km.

[GulvkluderGuld]

28 minutes ago, SirAmra said:

Well, as an old WG player (since 2011) I've always stated that they can't balance stuff.

They either buff to much or they nerf to much, hence I'm against all balancing from WG(Not all all, but u get the picture).

Now that you mention it.

 

*Laughs in Harugumo* 

*Laughs in Kitakaze* 

[Yedwy]

@OP cute, this last part about YY "it beeing in line with counterparts" - no, no it wont

 

few seconds off torp reload wont change 

[abdew_unconquerable]

I think WG hate YY.!!

[fumtu]

From the last Q&A from Reddit with S_O, one month ago

 

Quote

Q: Will the Yueyang ever be rebalanced to account for the unnecessary nerfs a few patches ago?

A: As any other ship, YY can be changed in the future, but we do not consider the nerf "unnecessary", happy with the result, and there is no reverting planned. YY sits firmly in the middle of T10 DD in terms of damage, WR, frags and other stats. At the same time, YY audience skill curve is not special (as opposed to Daring for example), so her relative performance is also fine. She's the least popular T10 DD, but always was like this, and her popularity is still acceptable to us. She used to be OP, now she's OK. Can it be "more OK" (better) while staying within acceptable balance? Yes, as many other ships, too. So we will consider it for the future updates.

 

And now they a buffing her. Not even close enough, but seem like after all she wasn't OK.

 

Similar thing as with French DD. Because of one or two strong consumable(s) they are nerfing basics instead of gimmick. They could either remove radar completely just like they could change MBRB for French DDs and make it less strong but instead they are making DDs crap and only goodish in those moments when they could use their gimmick. What a great design. I'll keep YY simply because of boxes for WG anniversary and maybe some event similar to snowflakes and because I love Allen M Sumner Class and YY is only ship from the class in the game. But I will sold Chung Mu. There are better ships at T9 for me.

[NothingButTheRain]

8 hours ago, SirAmra said:

I honestly had no problems with the old YY stats since it had no torps against DDs and had "only" guns to rely on.

And I want the YY back to its old state.

But didn't it also have radar? And isn't radar a very powerful anti-DD tool which is actually one of THE most complained game mechanics DD mains complain about?

[Panocek]

4 minutes ago, NothingButTheRain said:

But didn't it also have radar? And isn't radar a very powerful anti-DD tool which is actually one of THE most complained game mechanics DD mains complain about?

Short duration, short range radar at expense of smoke 

[Lootboxer]

34 minutes ago, fumtu said:

From the last Q&A from Reddit with S_O, one month ago

 

 

And now they a buffing her. Not even close enough, but seem like after all she wasn't OK.

 

Similar thing as with French DD. Because of one or two strong consumable(s) they are nerfing basics instead of gimmick. They could either remove radar completely just like they could change MBRB for French DDs and make it less strong but instead they are making DDs crap and only goodish in those moments when they could use their gimmick. What a great design. I'll keep YY simply because of boxes for WG anniversary and maybe some event similar to snowflakes and because I love Allen M Sumner Class and YY is only ship from the class in the game. But I will sold Chung Mu. There are better ships at T9 for me.

IMHO it is more like this: "you ppl cried 'buff YY, it's weaker than T9!' so we did it" (nerfing the out of Chung Mu by the way).

About the gimmicks, did you really expected nerfs to gimmicks in the World of Gimmicks game?

[NothingButTheRain]

51 minutes ago, Panocek said:

Short duration, short range radar at expense of smoke 

Still a radar is a radar.

[Panocek]

Just now, NothingButTheRain said:

Still a radar is a radar.

7.5km radar with 25/30s duration or 6km hydro with 120/144s duration on other certain DD...

[NothingButTheRain]

8 minutes ago, Panocek said:

7.5km radar with 25/30s duration or 6km hydro with 120/144s duration on other certain DD...

I don't see many DD players complain about those, so I guess these people get triggered whenever they see the word radar somewhere.

Maybe we should just rename all radars in the game and give all of these hydro-radars the added ability to spot torps too! 

[GulvkluderGuld]

1 hour ago, NothingButTheRain said:

But didn't it also have radar? And isn't radar a very powerful anti-DD tool which is actually one of THE most complained game mechanics DD mains complain about?

This might come off harsher than intended, but good luck playing with radar instead of smoke in the current meta. My Hakuruy approves.

 

Same reason french dds (and all dds but Khaba which isn't really a dd) will fail in a competitive CV meta. 

 

Smoking up cruisers is key vs CVs. And besides RFs will eat the DD alive.

[Skyllon]

47 minutes ago, NothingButTheRain said:

Still a radar is a radar.

Completely useless if you consider all this buzzing over your head...

[Crysantos]

On 6/22/2019 at 1:06 AM, SirAmra said:

Well, as an old WG player (since 2011) I've always stated that they can't balance stuff.

They either buff to much or they nerf to much, hence I'm against all balancing from WG(Not all all, but u get the picture).

I honestly had no problems with the old YY stats since it had no torps against DDs and had "only" guns to rely on.

And I want the YY back to its old state.

 

On 6/22/2019 at 8:56 AM, Gong_ER said:

I think WG hate YY.!!

Hi,

 

The old Yueyang was simply too strong, this is why she was nerfed in the way she was - and yes she has torps that don't work against other DDs but this is offset with her other traits. Each DD has pros and cons. I can understand that if you liked the ship that you would like to get it back in its stronger iteration but we need to keep it balanced. We have a massive amount of data available to check this and we monitor the performance of all ships. YY is in a good spot and gets a small buff.

 

Greetings, Crysantos

Edit(h) says: Removed link since the stats were all-time and thus a bit misleading.

[RambaRal]

17 minutes ago, Crysantos said:

 

Hi,

 

The old Yueyang was simply too strong, this is why she was nerfed in the way she was - and yes she has torps that don't work against other DDs but this is offset with her other traits. Each DD has pros and cons. I can understand that if you liked the ship that you would like to get it back in its stronger iteration but we need to keep it balanced. We have a massive amount of data available to check this and we monitor the performance of all ships. YY is in a good spot and gets a small buff - even on popular stats pages YY's performance should be pretty convincing:

https://wows-numbers.com/ship/4179506384,Yueyang/

 

Greetings, Crysantos

 

People already pointed out several times that that reason is contradcitory: If the problem was its melee power coupled with radar, why the hell you nerfed the torpedo reload as well and so hard?

 

Now you do it again and screw the only other decent torpedo boat left ingame? GG indeed. You know, I grown up being taught to be polite and educate, but sometimes is really difficult not to open the tap and let profanities flow after reading such comments or info about such well studied *balances*...

[Crysantos]

1 minute ago, RambaRal said:

 

People already pointed out several times that that reason is contradcitory: If the problem was its melee power, why the hell you nerfed the torpedo reload as well and so hard?

 

Now you do it again and screw the only other decent torpedo boat left ingame? GG indeed. You know, I grown up being taught to be polite and educate, but sometimes is really difficult not to open the tap and let profanity flow when I read such comments...

I'm not saying the melee power was the sole reason to nerf this ship, please don't put words in my mouth that I never said. And a faster torpedo reload leads to an increased DPS with torpedoes. Look at her performance - you can also look up Chung Mu's performance and see the reasoning behind the nerf - in our DevBlog post we're not talking about close quarters performance but battle efficiency in general.

 

Greetings, Crysantos

[abdew_unconquerable]

21 minutes ago, Crysantos said:

 

Hi,

 

The old Yueyang was simply too strong, this is why she was nerfed in the way she was - and yes she has torps that don't work against other DDs but this is offset with her other traits. Each DD has pros and cons. I can understand that if you liked the ship that you would like to get it back in its stronger iteration but we need to keep it balanced. We have a massive amount of data available to check this and we monitor the performance of all ships. YY is in a good spot and gets a small buff - even on popular stats pages YY's performance should be pretty convincing:

https://wows-numbers.com/ship/4179506384,Yueyang/

 

Greetings, Crysantos

I think this will be more than just: Can you share post-nerf stats?

 

[Crysantos]

8 minutes ago, Gong_ER said:

I think this will be more than just: Can you share post-nerf stats?

No, I personally can't do that but you should be able to get a good idea on popular stats pages about it. The torp reload buff should help her and same thing applies to the Gearing, while e.g. Grozovoi is getting nerfed because it's too strong. And yes - if we see that YY struggles compared to other TX DDs, we will do more changes - just like for any other ship.

 

Have a nice weekend!

 

Crysantos

[GulvkluderGuld]

49 minutes ago, Crysantos said:

Hi,

 

The old Yueyang was simply too strong, this is why she was nerfed in the way she was - and yes she has torps that don't work against other DDs but this is offset with her other traits. Each DD has pros and cons. I can understand that if you liked the ship that you would like to get it back in its stronger iteration but we need to keep it balanced. We have a massive amount of data available to check this and we monitor the performance of all ships. YY is in a good spot and gets a small buff - even on popular stats pages YY's performance should be pretty convincing:

https://wows-numbers.com/ship/4179506384,Yueyang/

 

Greetings, Crysantos

The old YY was strong even without radar. I loved it. But that was before things like Harugumo and Daring (both seems even..stronger) and CV rework went live.

 

BUffing the torps is definitely a step in the right direction.

 

My gripe with the sledge-nerf was that it nerfed both guns and torps into a useless state. Why not nerf one and give the YY a clear identity?

Guns? Shima now has comparable dps but has better arcs. Are there even a DD in the game with worse gun dps? (we're talking about the dd with no other melee weapons here!)

Torps? Shima has 50% more on a faster reload (worse torps, but waiting > 2 mins for the DWT cd is boring asf)

 

And on top, the Legendary module is the most pointless of all LM. The LM is a relic from the time when YY was too strong, i get it.

But now it feels like such a missed oppertunity. It could be reworked to give the YY an alternate playstyle (buff guns, nerf torps, or vice verca).

 

What made old YY strong was the DWT and the consumbles . Radar speaks for itself.  The Gearing has comparable guns, but isnt performing off the chart.

The fast reloading smoke that could be used in combination with the guns to assasinate other dds was really strong in a CV-less meta. 

But it doesn't work anymore with CVs.

First off, DD fights rarely happens, and only much later into the game (because rushing caps to fight is suicide vs CVs and the amount of radar in the game)

Second, all the newer DDs flat out wins DPS trades vs. the YY, even shimas do. 

 

And LM cant be used because of the concealment hit - having worse concealment that things like a Daring and Harugumo is a death-sentence.

 

 

 

[Crysantos]

3 minutes ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

The old YY was strong even without radar. I loved it. But that was before things like Harugumo and Daring (both seems even..stronger) and CV rework went live.

 

My gripe with the sledge-nerf was that it nerfed both guns and torps into a useless state. Why not nerf one and give the YY a clear identity?

Guns? Shima now has comparable dps but has better arcs. Are there even a DD in the game with worse gun dps? (we're talking about the dd with no other melee weapons here!)

Torps? Shima has 50% more on a faster reload.

 

And on top, the Legendary module is the most pointless of all LM. The LM is a relic from the time when YY was too strong, i get it.

But now it feels like such a missed oppertunity. It could be reworked to give the YY an alternate playstyle (buff guns, nerf torps, or vice verca).

 

What made old YY strong was the DWT and the consumbles . Radar speaks for itself.  The Gearing has comparable guns, but isnt performing off the chart.

The fast reloading smoke that could be used in combination with the guns to assasinate other dds was really strong in a CV-less meta. 

But it doesn't work anymore with CVs.

First off, DD fights rarely happens, and only much later into the game (because rushing caps to fight is suicide vs CVs and the amount of radar in the game)

Second, all the newer DDs flat out wins DPS trades vs. the YY, even shimas do. 

 

And LM cant be used because of the concealment hit - having worse concealment that things like a Daring and Harugumo is a death-sentence.

I'll check about the LM and see what we can do there ;)

 

Greetings, Crysantos

[ColonelPete]

19 minutes ago, Crysantos said:

No, I personally can't do that but you should be able to get a good idea on popular stats pages about it. The torp reload buff should help her and same thing applies to the Gearing, while e.g. Grozovoi is getting nerfed because it's too strong. And yes - if we see that YY struggles compared to other TX DDs, we will do more changes - just like for any other ship.

 

Have a nice weekend!

 

Crysantos

Old YY:

 

Current YY:

http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/20190615/eu_2month/average_ship.html

 

Even if you consider that back then many experienced DD captains drove her, the change was massive.

And nearly everybody told WG that the change was too much.

The now announced improvement was inevitable.

 

Would be nice if you looked at ships like the Z-52.

 

Btw. I am suprised that you decided to work on Jutland and not on Daring. Daring could use a tone down. Jutland looks fine:

[GulvkluderGuld]

41 minutes ago, Crysantos said:

I'll check about the LM and see what we can do there ;)

 

Greetings, Crysantos

Thanks. Please add it to the rework list along with the CV LM's.

 

Suggestion: Give it at least a 5% concealment bonus, some gun or torp stats and remove the penalties to radar/smoke duration (or rework those to increased cooldown penalties instead).

It probably would be usable with a flat 5% concealment bonus as a torp boat (would take testing), but it doesn't solve the identity issue (it still works only as a torp boat).

 

Suggestion 2: Move it to slot 6 to leave the concealment in slot 5 alone if you have to, but I dont think this will be optimal for creating an alternate playstyle, since it competes with slot 6 reload mods then.