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Kii Secondaries Inconsistency

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[RONIN]
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It seems the 100mm turrets can penetrate 32mm armour with IFHE but the 140mm cannons can only penetrate 29mm, why is that??

@MrConway @shonai

 

Given the incoming German secondaries buff can we get this fixed too or is this intended?

 

image.thumb.png.06efea334b93f81a5157dd9cf098692c.png

 

image.thumb.png.0576910d17d321dee238e7a066e25839.png

 

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[BHSFL]
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Higher vs lower muzzle velocity ? ( 1000 m/s vs 850 m/s )

 

"modern" guns vs "antiquated" WWI era casemate guns ?

 

LWM mentioned it when she tested it, KII having a strange mix of different era weapons while it was never modernized or built at all.

 

Very decent AA though ( not only in theory, i enjoy that in game ) .....the 100 mm's are dual purpose guns, they are part of AA too.

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Don't question too much a game where penetration is the same at all range. They probably take the value that suits them.

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[KAKE]
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12 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

Lower muzzle velocity ? ( 1000 m/s vs 850 m/s )

Didn't we talk about this only a few days ago? HE penetration is fixed and based on the calibre of the shell, it has no relation to shell velocity or impact angle.

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27 minutes ago, Uglesett said:

Because magic.

 

All the Japanese 100mm guns were buffed to use 1/4 rule instead of 1/6 rule back when the Kitakaze and Harugumo were developed.

 

https://worldofwarships.eu/en/news/game-updates/update-077-go-navy/#balance

Well thats a bit dumb coz now bbs that use them in a secondary suite with bigger guns will have this mismatch in their he penetration which is not proportionate to the increase in gun calibre, if both guns are using the different pen rules.

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[SCRUB]
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Side effect of them buffing the HE pen for the Akizuki/Kitakaze/Harugumo. They tied to the HE pen to the gun instead of the specific ships they wanted to buff, so every ship with the same guns gets the same buff (from the top of my head that's Zao, Kii and Hakuryu secondaries). Whether that screws with the consistency of secondary HE pen on a specific ship like the Kii is probably ignored because handling the buff any different wasn't worth the effort just to eliminate side effects (positive ones as it was a net buff to anyone else effected by the change).

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1 hour ago, Uglesett said:

Didn't we talk about this only a few days ago? HE penetration is fixed and based on the calibre of the shell, it has no relation to shell velocity or impact angle.

You think it retains information?? My sweet summer child :Smile-_tongue:

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How odd i would buff the 140’s to 32mm’s and moar gunz.

 

and increase her torp range.

 

interesting how german cruiser secondaries are getting buffed do they actually have good secondary batteries tier 8+?

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2 hours ago, CptBarney said:

How odd i would buff the 140’s to 32mm’s and moar gunz.

 

and increase her torp range.

 

interesting how german cruiser secondaries are getting buffed do they actually have good secondary batteries tier 8+?

Bismarck class get touched up too. inb4 all those IFHEpitzes were a plan all along:cap_haloween:

 

CA secondaries from Hipper onward aren't bad, 6 to 8 guns per broadside with 3.4s reload and with buff they would become actually the best secondary suite on a cruiser due to built in 25mm pen. IJN 100mm guns have 24mm, so IFHE is in order to make them pew pew

 

Still, if secondary BBs are gimmick at best, then secondary cruiser would be a turbogimmick:cap_tea:

Though Cleveland of old, with AFT and Secondary upgrade was top kek in T6 operations

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1 hour ago, Aotearas said:

Side effect of them buffing the HE pen for the Akizuki/Kitakaze/Harugumo. They tied to the HE pen to the gun instead of the specific ships they wanted to buff, so every ship with the same guns gets the same buff (from the top of my head that's Zao, Kii and Hakuryu secondaries).

Also Ibuki top hull, Azuma and Yoshino.

 

Worth noting too: As a secondary gun, the 10 cm/65 Type 98 has a 1.7k HE alpha, not 1.4 like the main gun version. Why? No clue. So, there are differences in performance.

 

As for Kii secondaries? Different pen rules being applied isn't new. Bismarck and FdG had that issue already and their buffs are not for "consistency", but to improve performance and make their secondaries stand out vs secondary USN and French. Also, the 14 cm gun issue is far from a real problem, as the Kii carries so few of these that most of the dpm is on the 10 cm guns, the 14 cm guns still pen anything short of T8+ BB hulls with IFHE and those 30 mm T10 cruiser midsections (though, tbf, if you are brawling anything with a 30 mm midsections, chances are, you are about to eat torps, given the secondary range of Kii).

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4 hours ago, Aotearas said:

Side effect of them buffing the HE pen for the Akizuki/Kitakaze/Harugumo. They tied to the HE pen to the gun instead of the specific ships they wanted to buff, so every ship with the same guns gets the same buff (from the top of my head that's Zao, Kii and Hakuryu secondaries).

 

And yet when i said secondary battery guns are the same as Cruiser ( in this case Destroyer ) main guns with skills/module pun into them, except for the ~ 10 km range nerf and slightly worse accuracy/ROF forum members get in line to trip over that statement.

 

Penetration and damage is exactly the same.....wether it is a secondary gun or a main gun of that type.

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5 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

slightly worse accuracy

Erm....

 

If you get similar hit rates with BB secondaries as you get with cruiser main batteries I've got some bad news for you :Smile_sceptic:

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18 minutes ago, Cagliostro_chan said:

(though, tbf, if you are brawling anything with a 30 mm midsections, chances are, you are about to eat torps, given the secondary range of Kii).

Assuming you don't get citadelled to bits before the torps arrive... Her armour scheme is... not ideal for brawling.

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2 minutes ago, Uglesett said:

Assuming you don't get citadelled to bits before the torps arrive... Her armour scheme is... not ideal for brawling.

Good luck citadelling a Kii in a cruiser.

Spoiler

shot-19_06.21_14_40.41-0432.thumb.jpg.b6c36a5a44c384f3ddf6efcbc3c1cd7b.jpg

Nothing above the waterline to be citadelled, none of the cruisers with 30 mm midsection have the capability to overmatch the 22 mm citadel deck which makes Kii vulnerable to BBs. Yoshino would be the first ship that meets all the criteria to pull that off.

 

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I should probably have noticed the word "midsections", and possibly just read what's actually written instead of what my tired brain saw :fish_palm:

 

Long day.

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[LAFIE]
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5 minutes ago, NoobySkooby said:

I have just unlocked the Amagi, does she have in any way better guns, being the tech tre version of the Kii?

They should have the exact same guns..

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2 minutes ago, lafeel said:

They should have the exact same guns..

Ok fair enough but one being premium and one being tech tree is there no difference at all?

 

The KGV and the DoY are just a tad different if I remember rightly, maybe WG could introduce the Rodney as  premium with a spotter plane, but now I am just dreaming, lol

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3 minutes ago, NoobySkooby said:

Ok fair enough but one being premium and one being tech tree is there no difference at all?

 

The KGV and the DoY are just a tad different if I remember rightly, maybe WG could introduce the Rodney as  premium with a spotter plane, but now I am just dreaming, lol

The Spork reloads slightly slower as I recall, otherwise they're the exactly the same guns. 

 

Although I am sure that now I've said that someone will come and point out something that I don't have that's different between the two..:Smile_veryhappy:

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Duke of York has slowed loading guns but has a hydro and maybe one less repair party?

 

Amagi is faster than Kii, but has slightly worse aa and no torpedo.

 

And you don't want to use them as secondary brawlers, they have insane accurate main guns with a lot of penetration. No need to get that close. But please, don't snipe also

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[RONIN]
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The only BBs I dont put secondary builds on are the US, Italian and UK ones + Musashi. Everything else is 19pt secondary captains as I prefer close quarters combat even my PEF has a Secondary build.

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Killing Destroyers and overgrown Destroyers ( Light Cruisers ) is not considered brawling is it ?  That is merely getting dangerous side treats neutralized while you focus on more important, armoured  targets with your main guns....Secondary batteries are good (designed )  for that....if unnerfed by skilling/moduleing into them.

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1 hour ago, Seeigel said:

And you don't want to use them as secondary brawlers, they have insane accurate main guns with a lot of penetration. No need to get that close. But please, don't snipe also

While not secondary ships, neither is "insane accurate" (sic). Amagi is your typical IJN long range dispersion, but 1.8 sigma. Resulting in it being better than most of those that use German/French/Italian dispersion at most ranges, better than Monarch at long range, but worse than NC, Alabama and Vanguard at any range and worse than Monarch at short range. Kii has 1.7 sigma, it basically can do ok still, but it is far from accurate at most ranges and compensates by throwing 10 shells out where some shells normally hit.

 

1 hour ago, lafeel said:

The Spork reloads slightly slower as I recall, otherwise they're the exactly the same guns. 

 

Although I am sure that now I've said that someone will come and point out something that I don't have that's different between the two..:Smile_veryhappy:

Duke of York has one less repair charge, but gets hydro. DoY gets better AA and it has improved pen angles. Reload is not "slightly slower), it's significantly slower at 28 s instead of 25 s of KGV.

1 hour ago, lafeel said:

They should have the exact same guns..

Kii has 1.7 sigma, Amagi has 1.8.

1 hour ago, ___V_E_N_O_M___ said:

The only BBs I dont put secondary builds on are the US, Italian and UK ones + Musashi. Everything else is 19pt secondary captains as I prefer close quarters combat even my PEF has a Secondary build.

Saying "I even use secondary build on PEF" is like saying you even use it on Massachusetts. Duh, there is no T6 ship where secondary build makes more sense than on the PEF, both because the secondaries are one of its strong points and because it actually provides some added firepower that is sorely needed if you brawl anything with 25 mm or more in armour. And unless you play exclusively high tier, IJN T3-8 absolutely is not worth secondary builds, with the best secondary builds being basically Mutsu, Nagato and Kii, with great dpm against lightly armoured ships but far from competitve or good (especially if pitted vs actual close quarter monsters like Germans). Meanwhile, ships like Iron Duke and Warspite are decent for secondaries, despite being RN, because for their tiers, they have many secondary guns with decent range.

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On 6/21/2019 at 8:00 AM, ___V_E_N_O_M___ said:

It seems the 100mm turrets can penetrate 32mm armour with IFHE but the 140mm cannons can only penetrate 29mm, why is that??

@MrConway @shonai

 

Given the incoming German secondaries buff can we get this fixed too or is this intended?

 

image.thumb.png.06efea334b93f81a5157dd9cf098692c.png

 

image.thumb.png.0576910d17d321dee238e7a066e25839.png

 

 

 

Its an unfortunate inconsistency that stems from the change we made to all IJN 100mm guns, but it is indeed intended. I checked with the devs whether this is something we could change, but we would prefer to keep the penetration consistent across the nation rather than create more exceptions to the rules.

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