Secondaries : Cruiser HE power at 10 km or not ?

[Beastofwar]

I just enjoyed the 155 mm's of the Mushashi take out another DD at 8 km all on their own while i was fighting a Cruiser. And i wondered why secondary builds are not considered worth it. Many Battleships's carry the firepower of a Cruiser as secondary weapons...how can this not be powerful being able to engage 2 ships - of which 1 is a DD or soft skin Light Cruiser - simultaniously ?

 

Why is it neglected and/or rediculed  ? Because you are "supposed" to be long range camping and kiting and always out of range ? Because of they do not do much damage to heavy Cruisers and other battleships because they fire HE and can only penetrate superstructures ?  Fire spamming Cruisers do that.....and they burn down anything.

 

Chapayev is the highest tier Cruiser with similar weapons as main weapons i have in port. When i look at the weapons stats they do not seem very different, except for range and perhaps accuracy. ( Tier IX Seattle has very similar stats but fires faster and more accurate ) At best a Mushashi can aim 9 x 155 mm at a target. Chapayev 12 x 152 mm but when it is too dangerous to be broadside 6 x 152 mm.

 

Musashi 155 mm                                             Chapayev 152 mm                                      Mushashi 155 mm

2600 HE dmg                                                    2200 HE dmg                                                 +400 dmg

25 mm pen  ( 32  IFHS )                                 24 mm pen ( 31.2 IFHS )                           +1 mm pen ( +0.8 IFHS )

10 % fire chance                                               12 % fire chance                                            - 2 % fire chance

8.6 sec reload                                                     8.0 sec reload                                              + 0.6 sec reload

10.1 km range                                                    17 km range                                                 - 7 km range

925 m/s velocity                                               950 m/s velocity                                        - 25 m/s velocity

-60%-20% = -80 % dispersion  200 m ?     153 m dispersion                                       + 47 m dispersion ?

 

Looking at this is do not seem that much difference if we are talking about ~10 km fighting distance and ofcourse in mind them dealing with DD as a Cruiser would. Does anyone know how the 80 % dispersion translates ? Is that over 1000 meters = 200 meters ?

 

Tell me why - seriously without flaming - why fighting at max 10 km distances between islands and objects this is not a powerful weapon, similar to having  light ( fire spamming ) Cruiser power to use independent of your main guns ? What am i missing here ? Why is this not the anti-DD weapon of choice like the real world ones were ? How does human aiming compare to automated bot aiming of the secondaries ?  Do they make errors in aiming affecting their accuracy other then dispersion ?

 

And one other matter : i have noticed that despite wing secondary battery turrets face forward only one side seems to fire at a foreward target......nerf or ( angle ) cooincidence ?

 

 

[Miragetank90]

21 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

 

Tell me why - seriously without flaming - why fighting at max 10 km distances between islands and objects this is not a powerful weapon, similar to having ( light ) Cruiser power next to your main guns ? What am i missing here ? Why is this not the anti-DD weapon of choice like the real ones were ?

 

 

Because while there are only 19 points to use(and they share mod slots with things like main battery accuracy mod, etc) it's simply not worth it on the majority of ships. Simple as that. Especially since you need a significant investment for them to be more than RNG firecrackers. Even then, they offer only situational advantages for all those points, arguably better spent on other things - like survivability. 

 

I build my Kurfurst as a hybrid of survivability and Secs. 

 

 

 

 

[Beastofwar]

2 minutes ago, Miragetank90 said:

 

Because while there are only 19 points to use(and they share mod slots with things like main battery accuracy mod, etc) it's simply not worth it on the majority of ships. Simple as that. Especially since you need a significant investment for them to be more than RNG firecrackers. Even then, they offer only situational advantages for all those points, arguably better spent on other things - like survivability. 

 

 

 

 

 

So you cannot take a build like that because you will be burnt down faster ? Taking Survivability Expert, Superintendent and Fire prevention is so mandatory you fail if you choose anything else ?

[Miragetank90]

Just now, Beastofwar said:

 

So you cannot take a build like that because you will be burnt down faster ? Taking Survivability Expert, Superintendent and Fire prevention is so mandatory you fail if you choose anything else ?

 

Please point out where I said any of that.

I'm waiting.

 

Your belligerence aside, you are free to build however you want, but you came to the forum with a question, and I answered. Survivability builds are better on almost all BBs or at the very least a hybrid between the two in some cases works OK, as I pointed out with my Kurfurst. 

 

But please, I know you hate my advice, but don't take Survivability Expert on a BB, it's a waste of points. You gain only a small amount of HP. Take this on a Destroyer as it stands to make the biggest percentage HP gain. 

[Panocek]

The reason BBs don't have "realistic" secondaries is to have at least vague semblance of balance in this game. If you want full proper BB, with secondaries, main gun accuracy and whatnot, then hardcap of 2 per team is in order... Good luck handling those 3 players left out of typical 5BB/team random game

 

When we're at it, there could be hard cap of two "capital ships" per team, with BBs and CVs being capital ships as historically they were. 4 cruisers and rest DDs and you have roughly accurate fleet composition... where everyone except capitals are forced to protect big guys... fun/10 /s

[lup3s]

Going full secondary can be LOTS of fun, but the mistakes you make (mispositioning etc.) are punished harder. Mostly because you'll burn longer (and at more places), and have less heals.

 

My Bismarck and GK are full secondary; as are my Richelieu / JB.

I'm training a captain for the Massa, so I'll have a USN (secondary guns build) captain.

 

Manual Secondaries are tough 4 points imo; on the hand it greatly improves the accuracy, on the other hand the secondaries can only shoot a single targeted ship ...

[Beastofwar]

11 minutes ago, Miragetank90 said:

 

Please point out where I said any of that.

I'm waiting.

 

Your belligerence aside, you are free to build however you want, but you came to the forum with a question, and I answered. Survivability builds are better on almost all BBs or at the very least a hybrid between the two in some cases works OK, as I pointed out with my Kurfurst. 

 

But please, I know you hate my advice, but don't take Survivability Expert on a BB, it's a waste of points. You gain only a small amount of HP. Take this on a Destroyer as it stands to make the biggest percentage HP gain. 

 

I do not hate your advice at all...on the contrary it helps me understand why others flame me all the time for wanting/using secondary builds/tactics. I spend ( or want to spend ) most of my time in Operarions or Coop you see, being full aware PvP has other requirements because human players like to keep their distance more then bots that always try to close the distance fast. I do not want to respec/remodule any Operations tier ships/captains but the Tier IX's i have are pure PvP because there are no Operations that the tier.....so i may need to build them different.

 

Sorry if you misunderstood what i said to you, or if i misunderstood you.

[Bear__Necessities]

5 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

 

I do not hate your advice at all...on the contrary it helps me understand why others flame me all the time for wanting/using secondary builds/tactics. I spend ( or want to spend ) most of my time in Operarions or Coop you see, being full aware PvP has other requirements because human players like to keep their distance more then bots.

 

Sorry if you misunderstood what i said to you.

We don't flame you, we point out your VAST amount of BS and lack of knowledge. The reason most BB's do not run secondary build is because of what your role in a BB is. Pure Alpha damage. The longer you live, the more damage you put out. The better the chance of a win for the team. It's really that simple, no matter how many times you choose to ignore us. Very few BB's suit full secondary builds, most use a hybrid or survivalist builds with a few secondary options. But we've only been telling you this FOR MONTHS. A fully spec secondary build on a GK can be fun. But a tank build means you live longer and have more positive effect for the team. 

[Miragetank90]

19 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

 

I do not hate your advice at all...on the contrary it helps me understand why others flame me all the time.

 

Sorry if you misunderstood what i said to you.

 

My Kurfurst build. This offers a pretty decent balance.

 

 

 

I would only build like this on a German BB, and a few others, like Massachusetts. Otherwise, I don't really bother with secondaries. 

[Xanta99]

It's not just lack of FP, SI although those are significant things to be missing out on.  If you equip both secondary upgrades in slots 3 and 6 your Musashi will also lose main gun accuracy and fire rate.  (or whatever else you had there)

 

It's hilarious to go full secondary build but Musashi secondaries are so awful (compared to others) it's not the right ship to do it on.  Massachusets, Georgia, Republique, Bis/Tirp, FdG and GK though....let the rain of shells commence.

 

But don't ever complain if you get BBQed :)

[Miragetank90]

22 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

Sorry if you misunderstood what i said to you, or if i misunderstood you.

 

It's fine. Nevermind it. 

[GarrusBrutus]

Me when people come at me with secondarie specced yammies:

Spoiler

[Beastofwar]

35 minutes ago, Xanta99 said:

It's not just lack of FP, SI although those are significant things to be missing out on.  If you equip both secondary upgrades in slots 3 and 6 your Musashi will also lose main gun accuracy and fire rate.  (or whatever else you had there)

 

It's hilarious to go full secondary build but Musashi secondaries are so awful (compared to others) it's not the right ship to do it on.  Massachusets, Georgia, Republique, Bis/Tirp, FdG and GK though....let the rain of shells commence.

 

But don't ever complain if you get BBQed :)

 

But i can live with giving up the camping long range capabilities for a medium range build using islands. Fighitng under 10 km  is how WG wanted all the new RU BB to be isn't it ? The fact that Mushashii's main guns can penetrate (bow) armour at extreme ranges and it's thick armour bounces most incoming shells at long ranges does not mean it is less dangerous at medium ranges. And even fully skilled/moduled into accuracy it is still only slightly worse at long ranges. You won't hit with tight grouped salvo's all of a sudden.

 

But the survivability...that is important at all ranges....and the BBQ....how much difference does it really make if you are focussed because that is the only situation you are in dange of burning down in  ? 1 fire less, -10 % of catching fire and 1 heal more ? Will that make you live 30 seconds longer or will it make you survive ? A big difference. But sinking a DD while you are fighting another ship can be too......it will save you a lot of incoming torpedo's, and switching ammo for your main guns to AP and HE all the time. ( and likely be too late if the DD are slippery/stealty and jump you )

[Miragetank90]

1 minute ago, Beastofwar said:

But the survivability...that is important at all ranges....

 

Exactly. 

[Miragetank90]

4 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

the BBQ....how much difference does it really make ? 1 fire less, -10 % of catching fire and 1 heal more ?

 

That one fire less is more significant than the description lets on. Normally, up to 2 fires can catch in the midsection of a ship, along with one fore and one aft. 

 

With this skill, Only 3 are possible, because the midsection can no longer hold 2 fires. All hits here will only cause one fire. And, since this area likes to take a lot of hits, especially from HE, it's useful because they can no longer start 2 fires at this section. 

 

This fact on top of the fact that it gives the fire chance reduction makes it an invaluable skill for every BB out there. 

[ColonelPete]

5 hours ago, Beastofwar said:

Tell me why - seriously without flaming - why fighting at max 10 km distances between islands and objects this is not a powerful weapon, similar to having  light ( fire spamming ) Cruiser power to use independent of your main guns ? What am i missing here ? Why is this not the anti-DD weapon of choice like the real world ones were ? How does human aiming compare to automated bot aiming of the secondaries ?  Do they make errors in aiming affecting their accuracy other then dispersion ?

• Secondaries are not relieable, they do not hit good enough even with the invested points/modules/flag
• real cruiser and even the main guns of BB are usually a better protection as they do more damage and can hit at longer ranges
• Player controlled guns can fire blindly

Secondaries are good at finishing nearly dead ships, especially when your main guns are big and slow and point in a different direction.

[Yedwy]

@OP as ColonelPete just said main problem with sec is they are not reliable enough in damage delivery, actually they are only worth speccing in on few ships in the game and on couple of others they can be a semi-viable side build but that s just because of the specific stats of those vessels with long base sec range, very high rof, high pen, high fire chance or usually several of those

[elblancogringo]

Investing captain points on secondaries is useless most of the time. It can be fun, but for one game in which you'll have fun and put your secondaries to use, you'll waste 10 more in which a tanky build would have been more effective.

Wargaming wanted to adress the issue of "mandatory skills" like concealment expert.

They decided to nerf it across the board by changing it to a flat 10% decrease in detection for every ships. They thought it would make some BBs change their build and offer mode diversity.

What WG needs to realize is that to make it happen, no need to nerf concealment or fire prevention.

Just make other alternatives better.

Rework AFT. Rework manual secondaries. Rework IFHE. Change the aiming of secondaries so they don't shoot at the waterline. Buff again their range... 

Do that, and you'll see less tanky builds, and more diversity.

But at this moment? Just forget about secondaries.

I used to have hybrid specs on my high tier french BBs which have nice secondaries, I recently switched back to full tanky build. I don't regret.

[Captain_Singleton]

i've got a full secondary build on my Massa, the only one out of 200+ ships, as the guys have been saying survivability is the key, and i've only really got it on that one because a)it's a prem, b)it's that ships speciality c)it's useful for some missions...

[Sir_Grzegorz]

It is yet another topic by same person about same stuff. Why you even bother explaining, again?

OP is not interested in your opinions otherwise would got the point at some of the same topics that showed up previously.

[Beastofwar]

49 minutes ago, Sir_Grzegorz said:

It is yet another topic by same person about same stuff. Why you even bother explaining, again?

OP is not interested in your opinions otherwise would got the point at some of the same topics that showed up previously.

 

I am interested in your opinions - if it is not the usual flaming - as i struggle with finding 1 manadory build and neglecting half of a BB's weapons incredibly boring.

 

But for the Tier IX ones i probably will build them in survivability - as advised - as there are no Operations to make a secondary build enjoyable and useful.

 

And no previously i had a topic about CV secondaries. These do not run on full secondary builds but all my CV do use and continue to use BFT and AFT but that is to boost their AA defence. They have the AA module and not the secondary module. This way i do not have to return to the CV when under airattack as it drops anything much like specialized AA cruisers. BFT and AFT come in place of skills which use i found not effective for me  such as 0,5 sec faster closing reticules and 10 % concealment.

 

The CV with an enormous detection range cannot be closer to enemies and not seen ( you have to use islands to not be seen  if you do want to get closer )  by a mere 10 % concealment and aircraft are fast and manouevrable enough to force any attack angle anyway and AA activation range of AA cruisers remains exactly the same. And that faster closing reticule ? Often tried it, never found any useful difference. And the module.....longer attack runs are killing my planes without returns as all that extended time you are not manouevrable but whacked silly, without it you can turn and already started another attack run.

[Bics93]

7 ore fa, Beastofwar ha scritto:

Taking Survivability Expert,

 

 

[Centurion_1711]

Just curious, what was the maths behind getting 24mm of penetration for Chapy's HE shells. Then with IFHE, I am damn sure they can penetrate 32mm of armour, not 31.2mm.

 

25.4 x 6 = 152.4mm, or 6 inches

Chapy follows the 1/6 pen rule, so:

152.4 / 6 = 25.4mm, rounded down to 25mm if memory serves.

Now, IFHE adds an additional 30% penetration, so multiply 25 by 1.3:

25 x 1.3 = 32.5mm, rounded down (iirc) to 32mm.

 

Mogami/Musashi 155mm guns will have slightly more, but in the end still only beats the 32mm threshold so is on par with Chapy (or any other 6" gun cruiser out there). Forgive me if I screwed up the Maths somewhere, but as far as I can see this is correct.

 

As far as secondary Musashi goes, I haven't played her, so take this with a pinch of salt. But she seems to be sold by her overmatch, HE spam resistance and good torpedo protection. So as far as I can see, these are the areas to focus on: Fire Prevention, maybe vigilance to spot torps earlier, turret traverse skill to keep the guns on target, stuff like this. Her AA is pretty bad, but if you were to choose AFT you would "accidentally" buff the secondaries. But fir me at least, buffing secondary guns should be a side-effect, not the main purpose. They are very fun to watch, but buy and large they are ineffective.

 

Confirmation bias makes us all remember the secondary kills we got (I even managed one in my Neptune at one point) making us think of how great they must be. But in the grand scheme of things, they are rare. And will be hard to come by in a slower ship unsuited to brawling like Musashi. In her case, secondary guns should be last-ditch, "I'm taking that DD down with me" weapons. Not really part of your main offensive weaponry, and certainly not at the detriment of your main armament and survivability.

[CptBarney]

Not only that, most BB's have a limited amount of secondaries with poor range and poor accuracy plus don't have the caliber to justify taking any or some secondary skills, not only that due to the way wargaming have done their skill tree (something i don't like myself) you are only limited to a few useful options while the rest is very much situatuations.

 

I mean if you had a ship with 14x2 156mm's with a base range of 9.5km and a dispersion rate similar to the georgia with 900m/s shells and a 14% fire chance then taking a secondary build would be viable especially if you can still boost other areas of the ship (even more so if this thing is at tier 10 with legendary moduel that enhances other parts of the ship.)

 

Shame really i was expecting when playing this game for the first time a skill tree for each ship type but i guess that might make some ships too good so i can see why they did what they did.

[Yedwy]

30 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

I am interested in your opinions - if it is not the usual flaming - as i struggle with finding 1 manadory build and neglecting half of a BB's weapons incredibly boring..

There is no mandatory build since prople play in different ways, but there is a prefered build given the specic ships strengths and weakneses...

 

Personally I dont think I have a full sec. build on any ship as I find FP is much to valuable on any bb in the current meta and especially on those meant to go in close in full view of the enemy fleet, but i do have several that have a semi-sec builds, some incomplete as captains dont yet have 19pt and some that are finished I usually use PM/EL-EM-SI-FP/AFT/MCFSA on some builds are slightly different but slightly, now from top of my head (its only my 2c though others  might not agree) ships good for sec. speccing are German T7 and up both premium and silver as well as Prinz Eitel Friedrich (good sec pen & range), French T8 and up again both premium and silver (good fire chance & range) and Massatchussets (good range and rof on sec), in general t6 and below are all meh due to combo of low sec. range (ok fights are fought at lower ranges there but still) and much less of a boost to accuraccy from MCFSA, you can use sec. on Musashi as you realised ureself but sluggisness of both ship and turrets in combo with that exposed cit makes it awkward, it can be used on Missouri if you want to go really really agressive with it speccing it for radaring and killing off dds and cls in smoke as it has same base sec. range as massa does but having liw rof on them requres sec module and bft on it making you either drop SI for it whitch relieves you of a radar and heal charge or dropping FP whitch is not smart most of the time, ruining the day of smoked op red ships can be a veritable salt mine though