So...did anyone figure out the best way to play GZ?

[Sunleader]

21 minutes ago, Panocek said:

Don't have access to paid section of gamemodels3d, but Ryujo have 20mm arming treshold for her AP bombs and I expect similar value on Haku, as her bombs can citadel Hipper (27mm deck+30mm cit roof) just fine, Minotaurs mid section of 16mm+38mm is also fine target

 

Shokek have hard time with Yamato 200mm cit roof as she have barely enough pen to deal with main deck+citadel

 

 

 

 

Thats Quite Low :)

 

And No.

For Fuse it only Counts 1 Plate.

So no matter how many Plates of Thinner Thickness you Penetrate. Nothing will Happen.

They are not Added.

[Filipin00]

30 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

 

 

German AP Bombs have 35mm Activation Fuse in WoWs.

For Comparisson the IJN AP Bombs have over 60mm in the Game.

 

 

Now in Reality. This Bomb was never Intended for this Kind of Usage.

The PD-500 Bomb was Indeed intended for the Use against Warships.

But it was Dropped from Nightfighters and Landbased Naval Bombers like the Do217 or Bf110

It was not Intended for Dive Bombing.

 

http://michaelhiske.de/Allierte/USA/TManual/9_1985_2/Chap01/FIG_036.HTM

http://michaelhiske.de/Allierte/USA/TManual/9_1985_3/Chap06/Fig_576.htm

 

The Bomb was Intended to be Dropped from an Altitude of over 3000 Meters.

And thus would have had a Very High Speed on Impact. Far Higher than what you get from a Dive Bomber.

And its Penetration is not as High as the Game makes it go.

Moreover

If the Bomb had been used like we do it in the Game. It would Likely Perform much Closer to the IJN AP Bombs.

Because the Slower Impact Speed would mean you need a Thicker Plate to Trigger the Fuse.

The Slower Travel Speed would also mean you would get way less Penetration.

And the Fuse Delay would cause the Bomb to Travel Way Shorter before Exploding.

 

 

 

 

In the Game this does not Matter of Course.

Either WG Simply Copied the Bomb without Caring for the Details of Usage.

And thus got these Somewhat Strange Numbers out of it.

 

Or they Simply Used these Numbers to give German AP Bombers a Different Feeling.

Being Capable of Doing Full Damage to a Cruiser.

And Sometimes even being Able to Strike a DD without Overpenetrating it.

Does give the German AP Bombs a Special Ability after all.

 

In Exchange of Course.

German AP Bombs are Harder to Citadel With of Course.

Especially Against Ships which Trigger the 35mm Impact Fuse early.

This Can actually Happen rather Fast.

Because even the 19mm of a DD go over 35mm Relative Thickness when you go over 57 Degree of Impact Angle.

 

 

 

But most of All.

this is Actually a Real Game Changer.

 

Because with IJN Bombs.

It is almost Impossible to Citadel a Montana for Example.

Because the Montana has only 38mm Deck Armor and then a Measly 19mm Citadel Deck Armor.

So IJN Bombs as they Require over 60mm before they Actually Arm.

Will Just Overpenetrate the Citadel and do pretty much Nothing.

 

But the German AP Bombers. As they only Require 35mm to get Armed.

Can in Fact Citadel the Montana.

 

Moreover.

The Yamato with its 200mm Citadel Deck.

Wont be Penetrated by IJN Bombs at all.

 

But the German AP Bombs will actually be able to go Through :)

 

 

 

However.

At the same time it also means.

Since German AP Bombs often get Armed on the Deck Armor Already.

You Need to Drop very Straight Down.

Otherwise the Bomb will not Reach the Citadel before Detonating.

 

This is a Problem you Dont have with IJN Bombs.

Because IJN Bombs usually only get Armed upon Hitting the Citadel Deck Armor.

So they will Citadel even if they Hit Fairly Angled. (Unless of course the Ship has a Very Thick Citadel Armor like the Yamato)

 

 

 

 

In That Regard.

The German Bombs in the Game.

Are in Fact Highly Superior as AP Bombs.

 

Their Lower Fuse Trigger makes em Harder to Use.

But it also Means they can Citadel anything.

And they can even get Full Penetrations against DDs :)

 

 

I guess this explains a lot.....

How come I was never able to score citadel on an Izumo, I tried so many times in my GZ to citadel him and no matter the angle, no matter the speed, the height or anything....

I just couldn't citadel an Izumo with GZ AP bombs(in training room).

[Sunleader]

17 minutes ago, Filipin00 said:

I guess this explains a lot.....

How come I was never able to score citadel on an Izumo, I tried so many times in my GZ to citadel him and no matter the angle, no matter the speed, the height or anything....

I just couldn't citadel an Izumo with GZ AP bombs(in training room).

 

Wont Happen ^^

Izumo has 3 Armored Decks if you Include the Citadel.

German AP Bombs are Triggered on the First Already.

So I assume they will never Reach down to the Third Armored Deck xD

[Filipin00]

5 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

 

Wont Happen ^^

Izumo has 3 Armored Decks if you Include the Citadel.

German AP Bombs are Triggered on the First Already.

So I assume they will never Reach down to the Third Armored Deck xD

Ok, I believe I am now, indeed, thoroughly confused

[Sunleader]

8 minutes ago, Filipin00 said:

Ok, I believe I am now, indeed, thoroughly confused

 

AP Bombs have 3 Values.

 

1.

Penetration.

Which is the Maximum Amount of Armor the Bomb can Penetrate.

2.

The Fuse Activation Minimum.

Which is the Thickness of a Single Armor Plate for the AP Bomb to be Triggered for Detonation.

3.

The Fuse Delay Timer.

Which is the Time it takes for the Bomb to Explode after it has been Triggered.

 

The Yamato is Hard to Citadel for many AP Bombers.

Because it has a very Thick Armor on its Citadel.

So many Bombs Simply dont have the Penetration to Penetrate and will thus just Detonate above the Citadel inside the Hull.

 

The Izumo has 3 Armored Decks Stacked on Top of each other with some Distance in Between.

German AP Bombs are Triggered on the First Deck already.

And the Timer was only 0.3 Seconds or Something like that.

So it Detonates before Reaching the Citadel. :)

Even tough it would have enough Penetration to get through.

The Delay Timer is just too Short to Reach it in case of the Izumo thanks to the Pretty high First Armored Deck.

 

And the Montana is Hard to Citadel because it only has 38mm Deck and 19mm Citadel Deck.

So Bombs are nearly Never even Armed when they Penetrate it. And thus just Fly right Through it.

 

 

 

With German AP Bombers.

Against an Izumo you will Likely always get a Normal Penetration.

Because the Bomb will Detonate inside the Ship. But not Reach the Citadel before it Explodes :)

 

[Filipin00]

11 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

2.

The Fuse Activation Minimum.

Which is the Thickness of a Single Armor Plate for the AP Bomb to be Triggered for Detonation.

 

OHHHHHH

So, if it encounters a piece of armor not thick enough to trigger detonation, nothing will happen and it will continue until reaching either next layer of armor or citadel and repeat the process until it reaches thick enough armor to detonate(or overpen if it doesn't encounter any)?

In which case the armor thickness of the previous layer of armor is disregarded in terms of minimal armor thickness required to detonate?

Ok that makes so much more sense, I knew there had to be 3rd variable for calculation, because previously I thought when it comes in first contact with any armored surface not thick enough to trigger it that next layers of armor cumulate those 35mm fuse activation which would make the 300+ mm of pen useless....

thank for clarifying

[Sunleader]

35 minutes ago, Filipin00 said:

OHHHHHH

So, if it encounters a piece of armor not thick enough to trigger detonation, nothing will happen and it will continue until reaching either next layer of armor or citadel and repeat the process until it reaches thick enough armor to detonate(or overpen if it doesn't encounter any)?

In which case the armor thickness of the previous layer of armor is disregarded in terms of minimal armor thickness required to detonate?

Ok that makes so much more sense, I knew there had to be 3rd variable for calculation, because previously I thought when it comes in first contact with any armored surface not thick enough to trigger it that next layers of armor cumulate those 35mm fuse activation which would make the 300+ mm of pen useless....

thank for clarifying

 

Yes.

The Trigger only Activates if a Single Plate has the Required Thickness.

Any Plates below the Thickness are Ignored.

BUT they are ONLY Ignored by the Trigger.

Not by the Bombs Penetration Value :)

 

In Theory. If you had 10 Plates of 15mm Each. The Bomb Trigger would never Activate.

But the Bomb would still Lose 150mm of Penetration.

So if the Bomb with 305mm was Thrown into 21 Plates of 15mm Each it would actually get Stuck in the 21st Plate without causing any Damage.

 

The 300+mm Penetration are very Importand for the Bomb to Work.

Because take the Yamato for Example.

 

The Superstructure has 19mm

The Deck has 57mm

The Citadel then has 200mm

 

So the Bomb needs a Total of 276mm of Penetration to actually Penetrate this Armor.

And Bombs never Hit 90 Degree on Target.

Lets say the Bomb Impacts at 65 Degrees on Top.

5 Degrees are Normalized by the Tip of the Bomb and are Negated.

So we get 70 Degrees out of 90 Degrees. Leaving a 20 Degrees Impact Angle.

 

The 19mm become 20mm

The 57mm become 60mm

And the 200mm become 212mm

So out of the 276mm we already go up to 292mm

 

Notice why the 300mm Penetration are still needed even if the Trigger only Activates for Plates that are Thicker ? :)

 

[Filipin00]

13 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

 

Yes.

The Trigger only Activates if a Single Plate has the Required Thickness.

Any Plates below the Thickness are Ignored.

BUT they are ONLY Ignored by the Trigger.

Not by the Bombs Penetration Value :)

 

In Theory. If you had 10 Plates of 15mm Each. The Bomb Trigger would never Activate.

But the Bomb would still Lose 150mm of Penetration.

So if the Bomb with 305mm was Thrown into 21 Plates of 15mm Each it would actually get Stuck in the 21st Plate without causing any Damage.

 

The 300+mm Penetration are very Importand for the Bomb to Work.

Because take the Yamato for Example.

 

The Superstructure has 19mm

The Deck has 57mm

The Citadel then has 200mm

 

So the Bomb needs a Total of 276mm of Penetration to actually Penetrate this Armor.

And Bombs never Hit 90 Degree on Target.

Lets say the Bomb Impacts at 65 Degrees on Top.

5 Degrees are Normalized by the Tip of the Bomb and are Negated.

So we get 70 Degrees out of 90 Degrees. Leaving a 20 Degrees Impact Angle.

 

The 19mm become 20mm

The 57mm become 60mm

And the 200mm become 212mm

So out of the 276mm we already go up to 292mm

 

Notice why the 300mm Penetration are still needed even if the Trigger only Activates for Plates that are Thicker ? :)

 

YES, that makes so much more sense, especially now I understand what the improved bomb normalization by 5 degrees buff in the upcoming update means.

But then again, as I was just in the training room, how was I able to citadel yamato, like, 3 or 4 times with 2 approaches if the deck is thick enough for bomb to trigger fuse? Was it because of the angle+delay?

I was also quite surprised by 4 citadels on montana, like 2 citadels twice in a row :O

 

And one more question, maybe little unrelated, but still. What happens if you drop the bomb on the main turret of any bigger battleship, is there a chance to incapacitate or even completely destroy the module? I'm asking because in one approach the bomb hit yamato's front main gun turret and did the standard penetration damage of 2310(same amount for most regular penetrating hits).

[Sunleader]

33 minutes ago, Filipin00 said:

YES, that makes so much more sense, especially now I understand what the improved bomb normalization by 5 degrees buff in the upcoming update means.

But then again, as I was just in the training room, how was I able to citadel yamato, like, 3 or 4 times with 2 approaches if the deck is thick enough for bomb to trigger fuse? Was it because of the angle+delay?

I was also quite surprised by 4 citadels on montana, like 2 citadels twice in a row :O

 

And one more question, maybe little unrelated, but still. What happens if you drop the bomb on the main turret of any bigger battleship, is there a chance to incapacitate or even completely destroy the module? I'm asking because in one approach the bomb hit yamato's front main gun turret and did the standard penetration damage of 2310(same amount for most regular penetrating hits).

 

1.

Because unlike the Izumo.

The Yamato only has 2 Armored Decks.

And the Citadel Deck is actually only a very Short Distance below the Armored Deck :)

So even tough the Bomb is Triggered by the Deck Armor. The Delay will give the Bomb enough to Time to Reach the Citadel.

 

The Izumo due to having 3 Armored Decks just has alot more Distance between your Bomb being Triggered and the Citadel.

So the Bomb will likely Detonate between the Second Armored Deck and the Citadel. Thus never reaching the Citadel :)

 

2.

Yes.

This is exactly why the German Bombs are this Special.

Other Bombs with Higher Thickness Requirement for the Trigger. Often just Fly right through the Montana.

Because 38mm and 19mm are like Nothing. The Bomb Penetrates that without any Effort.

And if the Trigger for example is Set for 50mm it never Activates. So the Bomb just ends up in the Water.

This Happens for Shokaku and Hakuryou AP Bombs :)

But the Graf Zeppelin thanks to the more Sensible Fuse. Will Trigger the Bomb. And then Detonate inside the Citadel :)

 

3.

Turrets are Usually very Thickly Armored. And on Top they are Heightened above the Deck.

So if you Hit the Turret. It is very Unlikely to Reach the Citadel Anymore.

Because either your Delayed Fuse will Detonate before you can Reach the Citadel. Or you will Simply not have Enough Armor Penetration Anymore to Penetrate any further into the Ship.

 

4.

Any Turret, AA Gun, Secondary Battery Gun or Torpedo Launcher on the Ship actually has its own Invisible HP Pool.

If it is Penetrated. Then the higher the Damage it has taken is. The Highest is the Chance that it will be Temporarily Disabled.

IF HOWEVER.

The Turrets or Guns HP reach 0.

The Gun or Turret can be Permanently Destroyed. And you can no Longer Repair it in that Match.

Meaning it wont be available anymore until your back in the Harbour :)

 

Yamato Turrets should have something like 20-30k HP tough.

So you would basicly need to Hit and Penetrate the Turret with 4-5 Bombs to Permanently Destroy it for that Battle.

 

However. A Single Hit can actually Disable it for a Short Time if the Yamato is Unlucky :)

 

 

If you want to Test that.

You best Take a Heavy Cruiser into the Training Room.

And then Shoot AP Shells into the Side of the Turret from very close Range where you can Guarantee Hitting the Turret.

You will See that most of this wont do Any Damage to the Ship itself.

But after some time the Turret will become Blacked out and be Destroyed entirely for the Remaining Match :)

 

[Filipin00]

I can't thank you enough for all the useful info you've given me here. I wish more people were like you. Now I really get the full picture and how it works.

[Panocek]

23 hours ago, Sunleader said:

And the Montana is Hard to Citadel because it only has 38mm Deck and 19mm Citadel Deck.

So Bombs are nearly Never even Armed when they Penetrate it. And thus just Fly right Through it.

What you're missing is 152mm main citadel roof, which in WG wisdom is in armor viewer. The same applies to UK BB, who seemingly lack deck armor.

 

23 hours ago, Sunleader said:

The Yamato is Hard to Citadel for many AP Bombers.

Because it has a very Thick Armor on its Citadel.

So many Bombs Simply dont have the Penetration to Penetrate and will thus just Detonate above the Citadel inside the Hull.

False. The only AP bombs Yamato's 200mm citadel roof will reliably stop are from Enterprise, Shokaku requires the most vertical drop possible due to just barely enough penetration while GZ and Haku can punch through effortlessly... if they reach it.

 

21 hours ago, Sunleader said:

2.

Yes.

This is exactly why the German Bombs are this Special.

Other Bombs with Higher Thickness Requirement for the Trigger. Often just Fly right through the Montana.

Because 38mm and 19mm are like Nothing. The Bomb Penetrates that without any Effort.

And if the Trigger for example is Set for 50mm it never Activates. So the Bomb just ends up in the Water.

This Happens for Shokaku and Hakuryou AP Bombs :)

But the Graf Zeppelin thanks to the more Sensible Fuse. Will Trigger the Bomb. And then Detonate inside the Citadel :)

Again false. Hosho and Ryujo have 20mm arming treshold and I expect similar value on Shokaku and Hakuryu, considering they can reliably citadel Hipper with 27mm deck + 30mm citadel

 

With 0.8.5 (finally) arrived more detailed ribbons, giving some insight what exactly happened.