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Filipin00

So...did anyone figure out the best way to play GZ?

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Hello everyone,

 

unfortunately my only tier 8 premium (for credits and free exp grind) is unfortunately graf zeppelin and(yes, I've written "unfortunately" 2 times, get over it).......recently people have literally started to mock me in game, for trying to actually do some damage.

I would even provide a replay to prove, but, in that clusterf*ck of a replay folder I can't find which one it is.

 

I think it was something like, 10 minute, which is like half of the match, trying to do damage to a HOOD in enemy team, he dodged so many of my slower-than-tectonic-movement torpedoes, AP bombs did minimal damage or bounced, and rockets melted before they even reached him......

 

I know about the nerfs, I know everything but is there a way to make it useful?(Of course in the actual game, pretending to have 1 mikasa strapped on each side of your ship doesn't count:Smile_teethhappy:)

 

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Your torps are your main source of damage. If you're having trouble hitting then get Torpedo Accel. ASAP. Even if you aren't I'd get it anyway, it makes life that much easier. 

The rockets aren't bad, actually I find them great. The only issue is the planes to deliver them are about as fast as molasses. 

 

The AP bombs that are the talk of the town were and are still, regrettably, pure garbage. 

 

The planes on attack approach move a little funny compared to all other bombers, and even after you've gotten used to it landing hits is a dice toss, even if perfectly aimed. It doesn't help that you only drop 2 at a time for 7000 max per bomb, if you hit and pen a citadel. It's pathetic, the most situational  and most RNG dependant of all the AP bombers. 

 

Because of the finicky nature of these AP bombers time is better spent flying the Torp bombers, for the most part. 

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On 6/12/2019 at 9:31 PM, Miragetank90 said:

Your torps are your main source of damage. If you're having trouble hitting then get Torpedo Accel. ASAP. Even if you aren't I'd get it anyway, it makes life that much easier. 

The rockets aren't bad, actually I find them great. The only issue is the planes to deliver them are about as fast as molasses. 

 

The AP bombs that are the talk of the town were and are still, regrettably, pure garbage. 

 

The planes on attack approach move a little funny compared to all other bombers, and even after you've gotten used to it landing hits is a dice toss, even if perfectly aimed. It doesn't help that you only drop 2 at a time for 7000 max per bomb, if you hit and pen a citadel. It's pathetic, the most situational  and most RNG dependant of all the AP bombers. 

 

Because of the finicky nature of these AP bombers time is better spent flying the Torp bombers, for the most part. 

 

I think I've gotten the hang of using AP dive bombers, depending on how armored the target is, during diving you either need to use boost to slow down planes if the target is low armored to decrease bomb inertion(and therefore its pen) or accelerate to increase pen if the target is heavily armored. I've used bismarck/tirpitz as a comparative point, I've succesfully citadelled it with normal approach without using boost to neither accelerate nor slow down. When attacking cruisers and low tier battleships I've decelerated during the dive to release the bombs from much higher altitude under 90°angle and on slow speed and succesfully citadelled ships like nagato and nelson, same for pretty much any cruiser, decelerate upon diving and hit citadells with ease.

Today, I've tried accelerating while making a dive attack on großer kurfürst and hit 2 citadells for 14k so the tactic works almost every time if we disregard the RNG :Smile-_tongue:

edit: hope anyone struggling with GZ finds this useful.

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At it's current state GZ is in the port, and if doesn't get decent buff soon I'll ask for refund.

 

She is totaly unplayable, not to mention that as a premium ship she is supposed to be fun to play, not a torture.

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Me again, a big shout-out to JellyFish for doing this video on GZ dive bombers.

In the video he covered the approach angles and various ways to do AP drops on a test dummy, the cleveland.

 

The video is not long, but does imo show the core problem with dive bombers on GZ and the difficulty of using them properly :Smile-_tongue:

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Hello. I had exactly the same Problem. That's why i did some rounds in the Training-Room and recorded it. Compared to other T8-Bombers the Graf feels weak. With the HE-Bombs of the Kaga i can have much more Damage and Fun. And this ist sad. The Uniqueness of GZ is his Weakness.

Only good point is that the Planes are fast (but slower since patch 0.8.4 Motor-Boost-Changes) and sometimes with RNG you can "Snipe" a Low-Health Target. But mostly i will rely on TB and Rocket-Planes.

 

Just 4 fun i have bought the Schokaku again and did a round in the Test-Room. Like the Haku you devastate a T8-Cruiser with some AP-Attacks.  Much more AP-Bomb Fun. Also the Enterprise...pure AP-Terror with Fun-Factor.

 

And i am afraid of Patch 0.8.5 when Passive-AA-Aura now hit only one plane at a time. The Damage will not distributed anymore between the whole Squad. So you will loose more Planes. I made a Compare-Vid for that. What will hapen to my T8 Graf Zeppelin-Planes in a T10 Match. The Imagine scares me.

 

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59 minutes ago, JellyFish1805 said:

Hello. I had exactly the same Problem. That's why i did some rounds in the Training-Room and recorded it. Compared to other T8-Bombers the Graf feels weak. With the HE-Bombs of the Kaga i can have much more Damage and Fun. And this ist sad. The Uniqueness of GZ is his Weakness.

Only good point is that the Planes are fast (but slower since patch 0.8.4 Motor-Boost-Changes) and sometimes with RNG you can "Snipe" a Low-Health Target. But mostly i will rely on TB and Rocket-Planes.

 

Just 4 fun i have bought the Schokaku again and did a round in the Test-Room. Like the Haku you devastate a T8-Cruiser with some AP-Attacks.  Much more AP-Bomb Fun. Also the Enterprise...pure AP-Terror with Fun-Factor.

 

And i am afraid of Patch 0.8.5 when Passive-AA-Aura now hit only one plane at a time. The Damage will not distributed anymore between the whole Squad. So you will loose more Planes. I made a Compare-Vid for that. What will hapen to my T8 Graf Zeppelin-Planes in a T10 Match. The Imagine scares me.

 

 

If you start the dive a little later cruisers should still be ok. 

 

However BBs are a huge problem. T7s - well no biggy but T8 and up you can’t really pen in the dive. So you are left with the choice: drop horizontally with abysmal precision and miss most of the bombs but have some useful bomb drop angle or dive and get (less terrible but still awful) precision and pen/overpen Hits instead of citas. 

 

Either way it sucks.

 

And you rightfully mentioned: the next AA Buff will again cripple her planes‘ survivability after directly nerfing her spood beest.

 

 

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There are two buffs to AA planned. The first is certain, with the next patch the continuous AA damage will focus on one plane. Which means pre-dropping in the Saipan will be  mandatory.

The second is in the works, where the continuous damage starts being calculated several times per second. This is I think a fix to the long range AA being so bad on ships that before the rework had good long AA values (like Gneis, Atlanta, and PEF) and which now fare badly against planes.

 

So no nerfs planned.

 

As to the GZ. It is and remains garbage. It is a high skill, low reward ship that is player unfriendly and weak. I'm happy that I pulled it out of a crate for a fiver and not paid the idiotic price in the shop, it is a rip off to offer a T6 ship uptiered to T8 for  50€. It's planes are so bad that they can compete with no other T8 CV. And I'm saying that as a noob who only plays CVs in coop. I have better games in my T6 CVs than in the GZ. And don't get me started on the idiotic dive pattern...

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On 6/18/2019 at 10:08 AM, 1MajorKoenig said:

And you rightfully mentioned: the next AA Buff will again cripple her planes‘ survivability after directly nerfing her spood beest.

You know what's funny? Slingshot drop or other damage mitigation techniques will be the go to approch to attacking anything with an inkling of AA. Guess which CV utterly sucks at mitigating damage with its bomb drop pattern.

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On 6/12/2019 at 8:02 PM, Filipin00 said:

Hello everyone,

 

unfortunately my only tier 8 premium (for credits and free exp grind) is unfortunately graf zeppelin and(yes, I've written "unfortunately" 2 times, get over it).......recently people have literally started to mock me in game, for trying to actually do some damage.

I would even provide a replay to prove, but, in that clusterf*ck of a replay folder I can't find which one it is.

 

I think it was something like, 10 minute, which is like half of the match, trying to do damage to a HOOD in enemy team, he dodged so many of my slower-than-tectonic-movement torpedoes, AP bombs did minimal damage or bounced, and rockets melted before they even reached him......

 

I know about the nerfs, I know everything but is there a way to make it useful?(Of course in the actual game, pretending to have 1 mikasa strapped on each side of your ship doesn't count:Smile_teethhappy:)

 

 

Yo.

 

First Off.

The Graf Zeppelin Plays very Differently from other CVs.

You got very Fast Planes. But they are Fairly Weak in Damage Output.

 

Which means that even more than other CVs. You do Damage Piece by Piece.

And alot of the GZs Attack Planes are Tailored to Attack Different Targets than other CVs would Attack with that Type of Plane.

 

Some Tips to Consider.

 

1.

Your Assault Planes. (They Guys with the Rockets)

These Guys are something you should Actually use more Often with the GZ than you usually Do with other CVs.

Because Graf Zeppelin is using Heavy Rockets.

So instead of the usual 2200 Damage Rockets with 28mm Penetration and 10% Fire Starting Chance.

The Graf Zeppelin gets 4400 Damage Rockets with 40mm Penetration and 25% Fire Starting Chance.

 

These 10mm Penetration Difference are very Big.

Because alot of T8 BBs got somewhere between 32mm and 38mm Deck Armor.

And most Cruisers have only about 30mm on Upper Belt as well.

 

So unlike other CVs which Generally use Rocket Attacks on DDs and Light Cruisers or in rarer cases into the Superstructure of BBs or Heavy Cruisers. The Graf Zeppelin can Actually Ram its Rockets into the Decks of BBs and do Significant Damage and Pummel even Heavy Cruisers from the Side doing Full Damage.

Doing 6-10k Damage to a BB or Cruiser with a Single Rocket Salvo is not a Rare Case. And in most Cases you will also manage to Set a Fire. 

Making the Assault Planes a Decent Asset to Deal Damage.

They are still usable against DDs as despite having fewer Hits on the DD the higher Damage usually makes up for it.

 

2.

Your Torpedo Bombers.

The TBs are Pretty meh on the GZ. With only 4k Damage per Torps and thus an Alpha Damage of 12k for the Attack Run. Alot of which is Mitigated by Torpedo Protection.

But the Torps of the GZ have a very Short Fuse. And with the Torpedo Speed Buff (Tier 2 Captain Skill) they are Highly Efficient at Hitting Cruisers. Which dont have much Torpedo Protection.

Against BBs the Torpedoes despite the low Damage Count are still a Viable Way to get Sure Damage onto them. And with the Fast Torpedo Bombers you also have a Good Chance that if a Target used Damage Control you can be Back on him before its Damage Control is Ready again.

 

3.

Your Dive Bombers.

These are Unfortunately way Inferior than other Ships Dive Bombers.

With only 2 Bombs. A larger Spread of Bombs and a Fairly low Damage for AP Bombs. (GZ has 2x7k while Shokaku gets 3x8k) The GZ Dive Bombers are not going to be your Way of Deleting anyone from Existence like Shokaku can do it.

Moreover they are Hard to Aim.

Unlike other Dive Bombers which Fly on from Bow or Stern. The German Dive Bombers are Best used by Attacking from the Broadside.

For a Sure Hit on Curisers. You Start the Attack just after the White Circle has Completely Passed the Cruiser. And then Drop the Bombs when the Cross is just about the Waterline of the Cruiser.

For a Citadel Attempt. You Start the Attack a Full White Circle Diameter PAST the Target and again Drop the Bombs when the Cross is jjust about the Waterline.

RNG is King. So if you Try to Citadel alot of Bombs will Miss. But against an Isolated Target which does not have the AA to Shoot down your Planes. You can Score 3-4 Citadels in a Good Run.

Dealing 20k Damage in the Process.

 

 

Something more Useful. Is that thanks to the fairly Long Attack Run and the Flat Level flight at the End. You do have a Significant Chance to not only Hit DDs but to Land the Bombs in a way that you actually Deal Damage instead of Overpenetrating the DD.

Allowing the Dive Bombers to also give you an Desperate RNG Throw when you Find yourself over a DD with your Dive Bombers and dont have anything else to Attack.

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44 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

You do have a Significant Chance to not only Hit DDs but to Land the Bombs in a way that you actually Deal Damage instead of Overpenetrating the DD.

 

I'm actually pretty sure that that the overpen only change for large caliber AP shells on DDs applies to AP bombs as well. I did some testing with Enterprise bombs when the rework came out and never managed to get penetration damage on anything but Khaba and Haru.

Maybe GZ is just different tho.

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43 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

I'm actually pretty sure that that the overpen only change for large caliber AP shells on DDs applies to AP bombs as well. I did some testing with Enterprise bombs when the rework came out and never managed to get penetration damage on anything but Khaba and Haru.

Maybe GZ is just different tho.

 

Thats also Possible.

I absolutely dont look for what DD I am Bombing.

So maybe I just Bombed an Haru there and thus got the Penetration.

I.ll Edit it out until I can Check it for Confirmation.

 

Edit:

 

OK.

Nope.

Was Right.

Just Remembered I can actually Test it in a Training Room lol

So I did.

 

shot-19_06.26_08_22.59-0657.thumb.jpg.5b73f22a0af16755cfeb513170108ebe.jpgshot-19_06.26_08_23.21-0936.thumb.jpg.65c40d384067f476a168c016d985e55e.jpg

 

Used a Daring as Test Target.

Since it has Same Armor as all other Normal DDs with 19mm

It should work for other DDs as well.

 

I Dropped the Bombs in the Flat Flight.

(You get nearly 4 Seconds of that. And thus can actually Cover a rather Large Distance in Flat Flight)

 

The Penetration Occur when a Bomb Hits the Waterline Side Armor of the DD :)

The 19mm are enough to Trigger it. And German AP Bombs have a Pretty Short Fuse.

So it works fairly Consistently.

Getting 2 Pens out of 6 Bombs :)

 

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40 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

So it works fairly Consistently.

Getting 2 Pens out of 6 Bombs :)

 

Oh boy. That's very interesting indeed. Nice catch!

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40 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Oh boy. That's very interesting indeed. Nice catch!

 

Well being a Filthy Casual Peasant has its Advantegous :P

 

As Nobody Expects too much of you.

You can get away with alot if Odd things xD

Including Torping and Divebombing DDs xD

 

Thats also why I actually Noticed that the GZ is a Terrifying Target for DDs.

With 9km Secondary Range and a Broadside of 8x150mm and 12x 105mm HE Spamming Guns I have actually Beat an Atlanta in a Gun Battle.

And the Fairly Decent Armor of the GZ causes alot of DD Caliber HE Shells to Shatter without causing Damage.

 

I am seriously considering to do a Full Secondary Build with Concealment Skills.

So I am Detected just about 1km outside my Secondary Range.

Currently I only got the Range Skill for Secondaries and the Range Module.

 

And with the upcoming Buff for German 105mm on T8 and above.

The IFHE Skill would mean that even the 105mm can Pen Bow Armor with HE.

Which means 12 Spamming Guns doing alot of Damage even to most Cruisers and BBs.

 

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4 hours ago, Sunleader said:

 

 And German AP Bombs have a Pretty Short Fuse.

May I know why bombs have (in case of GZ) over 300 mm of pen when the fuse is set to detonate after 30-something mm? Isn't that like, the red herring then?

As in, I have 300+ mm of pen, I can citadel a, let's say, yamato because my pen is enough to reach citadel, BUT, bomb actually detonates after around ~30 mm.....

THAT I never understood :Smile_unsure:

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1 hour ago, Filipin00 said:

May I know why bombs have (in case of GZ) over 300 mm of pen when the fuse is set to detonate after 30-something mm? Isn't that like, the red herring then?

As in, I have 300+ mm of pen, I can citadel a, let's say, yamato because my pen is enough to reach citadel, BUT, bomb actually detonates after around ~30 mm.....

THAT I never understood :Smile_unsure:

Bomb penetration, fuse sensitivity and fuse delay are three different and unrelated things. Whether why WG set fuse sensitivity to such low values to arm on pretty much first encountered plate and then set fuse delay to be as it is... Cynic in me would answer is to protect BB from getting citadels

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1 hour ago, Panocek said:

Bomb penetration, fuse sensitivity and fuse delay are three different and unrelated things. Whether why WG set fuse sensitivity to such low values to arm on pretty much first encountered plate and then set fuse delay to be as it is... Cynic in me would answer is to protect BB from getting citadels

GZ can citpen Yamato (provided your dive angle isn't too flat), so, nah.

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1 minute ago, Cagliostro_chan said:

GZ can citpen Yamato (provided your dive angle isn't too flat), so, nah.

Only USN HE bombs can't citpen Yamato, so its not exactly an achievement. 

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1 hour ago, Filipin00 said:

May I know why bombs have (in case of GZ) over 300 mm of pen when the fuse is set to detonate after 30-something mm? Isn't that like, the red herring then?

As in, I have 300+ mm of pen, I can citadel a, let's say, yamato because my pen is enough to reach citadel, BUT, bomb actually detonates after around ~30 mm.....

THAT I never understood :Smile_unsure:

 

34 minutes ago, Panocek said:

Bomb penetration, fuse sensitivity and fuse delay are three different and unrelated things. Whether why WG set fuse sensitivity to such low values to arm on pretty much first encountered plate and then set fuse delay to be as it is... Cynic in me would answer is to protect BB from getting citadels

 

German AP Bombs have 35mm Activation Fuse in WoWs.

For Comparisson the IJN AP Bombs have over 60mm in the Game.

 

 

Now in Reality. This Bomb was never Intended for this Kind of Usage.

The PD-500 Bomb was Indeed intended for the Use against Warships.

But it was Dropped from Nightfighters and Landbased Naval Bombers like the Do217 or Bf110

It was not Intended for Dive Bombing.

 

http://michaelhiske.de/Allierte/USA/TManual/9_1985_2/Chap01/FIG_036.HTM

http://michaelhiske.de/Allierte/USA/TManual/9_1985_3/Chap06/Fig_576.htm

 

The Bomb was Intended to be Dropped from an Altitude of over 3000 Meters.

And thus would have had a Very High Speed on Impact. Far Higher than what you get from a Dive Bomber.

And its Penetration is not as High as the Game makes it go.

Moreover

If the Bomb had been used like we do it in the Game. It would Likely Perform much Closer to the IJN AP Bombs.

Because the Slower Impact Speed would mean you need a Thicker Plate to Trigger the Fuse.

The Slower Travel Speed would also mean you would get way less Penetration.

And the Fuse Delay would cause the Bomb to Travel Way Shorter before Exploding.

 

 

 

 

In the Game this does not Matter of Course.

Either WG Simply Copied the Bomb without Caring for the Details of Usage.

And thus got these Somewhat Strange Numbers out of it.

 

Or they Simply Used these Numbers to give German AP Bombers a Different Feeling.

Being Capable of Doing Full Damage to a Cruiser.

And Sometimes even being Able to Strike a DD without Overpenetrating it.

Does give the German AP Bombs a Special Ability after all.

 

In Exchange of Course.

German AP Bombs are Harder to Citadel With of Course.

Especially Against Ships which Trigger the 35mm Impact Fuse early.

This Can actually Happen rather Fast.

Because even the 19mm of a DD go over 35mm Relative Thickness when you go over 57 Degree of Impact Angle.

 

 

 

But most of All.

this is Actually a Real Game Changer.

 

Because with IJN Bombs.

It is almost Impossible to Citadel a Montana for Example.

Because the Montana has only 38mm Deck Armor and then a Measly 19mm Citadel Deck Armor.

So IJN Bombs as they Require over 60mm before they Actually Arm.

Will Just Overpenetrate the Citadel and do pretty much Nothing.

 

But the German AP Bombers. As they only Require 35mm to get Armed.

Can in Fact Citadel the Montana.

 

Moreover.

The Yamato with its 200mm Citadel Deck.

Wont be Penetrated by IJN Bombs at all.

 

But the German AP Bombs will actually be able to go Through :)

 

 

 

However.

At the same time it also means.

Since German AP Bombs often get Armed on the Deck Armor Already.

You Need to Drop very Straight Down.

Otherwise the Bomb will not Reach the Citadel before Detonating.

 

This is a Problem you Dont have with IJN Bombs.

Because IJN Bombs usually only get Armed upon Hitting the Citadel Deck Armor.

So they will Citadel even if they Hit Fairly Angled. (Unless of course the Ship has a Very Thick Citadel Armor like the Yamato)

 

 

 

 

In That Regard.

The German Bombs in the Game.

Are in Fact Highly Superior as AP Bombs.

 

Their Lower Fuse Trigger makes em Harder to Use.

But it also Means they can Citadel anything.

And they can even get Full Penetrations against DDs :)

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Panocek said:

Only USN HE bombs can't citpen Yamato, so its not exactly an achievement. 

 

Actually this is not Entirely True.

IJN Bombs Dont have High Enough Penetration to Citadel the Yamato Reliably.

Its very Hard or maybe even Impossible to Citadel a Yamato with Tier 8 IJN AP Bombs.

 

Now I dont know the Values for the Hakus AP Bombers.

I assume they have Higher Penetration.

So they might have a Chance.

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2 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

German AP Bombs have 35mm Activation Fuse in WoWs.

For Comparisson the IJN AP Bombs have over 60mm in the Game.

Don't have access to paid section of gamemodels3d, but Ryujo have 20mm arming treshold for her AP bombs and I expect similar value on Haku, as her bombs can citadel Hipper (27mm deck+30mm cit roof) just fine, Minotaurs mid section of 16mm+38mm is also fine target

 

1 minute ago, Sunleader said:

Its very Hard or maybe even Impossible to Citadel a Yamato with Tier 8 IJN AP Bombs.

Shokek have hard time with Yamato 200mm cit roof as she have barely enough pen to deal with main deck+citadel

 

 

Quote

Hosho (Type 99 25 Mod1): 174

Ruyjo (Type 3 25 Mod1 Mk4): 228

Shokaku (Type 2 50 Mark1): 262

Hakuryu (Type 2 80 Mk5 Mod1): 351

Enterprise (M62): 244

GZ (PD 500): 334 (pre buff)

These should be the base values. Please take this into account:

Penetration capability is always the same, it's not affected by anything.

However, bombs interact with effective armor, so angle matters and they even can bounce.

They have normalization. It's base value is bigger than AP shells, but it's applied non-linearly; if the angle is bad, even great normalization won't help.

Aircraft angle and speed affect bomb speed and trajectory (but bombs do not loose penetration from speed!). Which means that for maximum penetration capabilities we must make the drop as close to 90 degrees as possible -> dropping early. For soft targets it may make sense to drop lately because, as with AP shells, for soft targets you don't want overpens and increasing effective armor turns into a benefit.

 

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