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I want a brawl...........

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But.......

 

 

 

 

When I try this, angling like I should, maybe a bit of bow tanking or kiting, I fail most times, so what is the magic essence of this technique of 'brawling'?

 

Tried it tonight in lower tier BB's but I cannot escape the fact,  I prefer a long range engagement, due to the fact BB reload times are horrendously long.

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Firstly you have to be in a BB that suits the play-style the Best are the Germans cause at close range you cant get citadel'd and you have the long range secondaries, so just staying within 10km (Tier 8+) is enough to do damage, when about to punish a broadside first pre-aim all your guns wait for the enemy to fire and turn the ship to bring your guns to bare and fire when you have a perfect shot. On the tier 9 and 10 German BBs if you go for a full secondary build with IFHE then if the target you are brawling stays angled then angle against him but in a way that your secondaries are firing on him and shoot your main guns at a more vulnerable target, cause with IFHE your secondaries can pen 32mm so if the enemy BB is bow tanking they will all hit the bow section and pen it which really racks up the damage fast when up close.

 

Other BBs like the Massachusetts you would do the same, but for me I would ignore IFHE and just use the secondaries for fires and also I wouldn't show any side and just rely on the front guns as there is no turtle back armour on the citadel.

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I involves pointing your bow at the enemy, only to expose all your guns when he just shot at you and is on reload CD, then go back in bow tank position to receive his next salvo ofcourse going full speed toward him. If he is bow tank position too you fire HE all the way to up close or you try aim at penetrating it's turret mantles trying taking it's guns out.

 

When close maneouvering to their broadside and ramming AP in their side when you get the shot. These are devastating salvo's. Sometimes this is made easier as your charge frightens the enemy and he tries to turn to be able to flee from you with speed.

 

If you have a ships that has decent secondares you can set that ship on fire constantly while you close in. And if victory becomes unlikely, you are in ramming range. A good ram on a BB with more then 50 % of its HP left still provides the better score then passing it to be blown up then. You then exchange your ship for the enemy ship which may not hurt your allies and even help them.

 

I have however seen 10 % BB ramming 70 % BB still exploding both. That invokes the wrath of your team as when you don not prevent this as the 70 % BB, you are really hurting team victory chances.

 

And there is the thing.....always be aware what BB ( or rather Battlecruisers ) you are trying to close combat.....some have battleship torpedo's, not only the obvious German ones....you will lose. That is why it is risky to close combat most Cruisers as well. It is very likely you both sink. It is why 50 % of human players die in Operations.....cruiser torpedo's that arent much used in PvP as the combat is less often that close.

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Midtier BBs can hardly "brawl" as they usually have either some places of armor, which gets overmatched, or even basicly everything! German armor works best at T6-7 where almost all other BBs are extremely squishy. T8+ is a different story again, as they basicly cant overmatch each other, except for Yamato/Musashi. Lowertier BBs usually have more armor all around, but are vulnerable at the upper bow, so you shouldnt sit bow in with them.

Have a look in port at the armor model: If plating*14,3 > caliber, you cant overmatch.

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Brawling means just closing down the engagement and is not class, nor ship, dependent. As I see it though.


Why would you brawl? You normally close down the distance to secure an objective or position you want to be in. 

 

Example 1: You are playing a battleship and under HE spam from long range cruisers. You see near the cap a lone BB and you know you can kill the BB. You now use the islands to rule out the HE spamming cruisers to kill the BB and secure the objective. 

Example 2: You are playing a cruiser with torpedoes against a BB that cannot overmatch your bow armour. Sure, you can keep on going with the long range HE spam, but you can also sail towards the BB and torp him to death.

 

There are plenty of other examples, but if you decide to brawl it all comes down to positioning to improve your chances on victory. The closer it gets the easier it is for both parties to get hits, so beforehand you have to know whether you will win the brawl or just to take out one important objective and retreat again. The minimap is the holy grail. This one will tell you exactly what will happen and the course you must sail. 

 

 


You are mentioning:

9 hours ago, NoobySkooby said:

prefer a long range engagement, due to the fact BB reload times are horrendously long.


I would guess from this that you are picking the wrong moments to brawl. I mean you have to be sure you will win the engagement or have a retreat ready before you even brawl. Don't expect help from your team, nor from RNGesus. 

The battles you brawl against too many enemies but have RNGesus on your side are lots of fun and can lead to good scores, but you have to know that you put your victory chances in faith. Sure, I do it as well so now and than... You know, the SN BBs with "accurate at close range" can be really epic when you wipe down an entire flank at close range, but these games are rare. You will find RNGesus being AFK a bit too much when you really need him and that is something you want to rule out when you want to win every game. 

Good luck :)

 

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4 minutes ago, LemonadeWarrior said:

Brawling means just closing down the engagement and is not class, nor ship, dependent. As I see it though.




 

 

So.. would it be correct in some ways to equate 'brawling' with the charging of the enemy battle line right when you want to resolve the engagement?

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1 hour ago, Beastofwar said:

I involves pointing your bow at the enemy, only to expose all your guns when he just shot at you and is on reload CD, then go back in bow tank position to receive his next salvo ofcourse going full speed toward him. If he is bow tank position too you fire HE all the way to up close or you try aim at penetrating it's turret mantles trying taking it's guns out.

 

When close maneouvering to their broadside and ramming AP in their side when you get the shot. These are devastating salvo's. Sometimes this is made easier as your charge frightens the enemy and he tries to turn to be able to flee from you with speed.

 

If you have a ships that has decent secondares you can set that ship on fire constantly while you close in. And if victory becomes unlikely, you are in ramming range. A good ram on a BB with more then 50 % of its HP left still provides the better score then passing it to be blown up then. You then exchange your ship for the enemy ship which may not hurt your allies and even help them.

 

I have however seen 10 % BB ramming 70 % BB still exploding both. That invokes the wrath of your team as when you don not prevent this as the 70 % BB, you are really hurting team victory chances.

 

And there is the thing.....always be aware what BB ( or rather Battlecruisers ) you are trying to close combat.....some have battleship torpedo's, not only the obvious German ones....you will lose. That is why it is risky to close combat most Cruisers as well. It is very likely you both sink. It is why 50 % of human players die in Operations.....cruiser torpedo's that arent much used in PvP as the combat is less often that close.

This tells me you rarely or know nothing about  Battleship brawling, using HE is stupid as front on you wont pen much but the bow. Using AP is the best thing due to wanting to knock out their guns at close ranges you will pen the gun armour and kill their guns. They have less guns = less damage. Also getting into mid range still AP since it angles downwards and goes into the deck for full damage or the superstructure.

 

Honestly only time you use HE on a BB is vs DDs even British battleships should use AP.

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48 minutes ago, ironhammer500 said:

This tells me you rarely or know nothing about  Battleship brawling, using HE is stupid as front on you wont pen much but the bow. Using AP is the best thing due to wanting to knock out their guns at close ranges you will pen the gun armour and kill their guns. They have less guns = less damage. Also getting into mid range still AP since it angles downwards and goes into the deck for full damage or the superstructure.

 

Honestly only time you use HE on a BB is vs DDs even British battleships should use AP.

 

You dont fire HE at their bow......you fire HE into their bridge and superstructure. Putting a perma-DOT on them is much better then all the bounces, shatters and superstructure overpens. Besides turret fronts have extreme armour, you won't be able to penetrate the until much closer.

 

Setting BB on perma-fire is the way of the annoying kiting cruiser or island spam camper cruiser is it not ?

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1 hour ago, DFens_666 said:

Midtier BBs can hardly "brawl" as they usually have either some places of armor, which gets overmatched, or even basicly everything! German armor works best at T6-7 where almost all other BBs are extremely squishy. T8+ is a different story again, as they basicly cant overmatch each other, except for Yamato/Musashi. Lowertier BBs usually have more armor all around, but are vulnerable at the upper bow, so you shouldnt sit bow in with them.

Have a look in port at the armor model: If plating*14,3 > caliber, you cant overmatch.

Ok thanks for the replies so the learn lower tiers thing is a bit hollow then?

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Don't forget the other aspect of brawling is that some BBs have torps which can be fired at around 6km  (much like many cruisers) - these can be a big surprise for an unsuspecting player.

 

The recently introduced Russian BBs are supposed to have improved dispersion from under 15km.

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My two cents dear @NoobySkooby

 

Brawling should be understood as closing the distance of the engagement. Closing the distance is not "we charge each other and sail by each other exchanging salvos". Even if you win the engagement you will end up badly damaged and probably pray to anyone that can aim at you. Closing the distance should also be understood that you bring your secondaries in the engagement while denying the other vessel to bring her secondaries in the engagement. This means you should always be aware of the distance between the two vessels.

 

An example to illustrate.

 

The T7 Scharnhorst (considered a good brawler) has 7 Km secondaries that can penetrate 37 mm armor. If she engages a T7 Nelson (25 mm all around) I would suggest that she stays at a distance over 5.5 Km and under 7 Km as the Nelson's secondaries will have a 5.3 Km range. Now the Nelson carries all her firepower fore. So your angle of approach is also important. You have to use your speed to approach the Neslon from an angle that is favorable to you and not your adversary. And she has strong guns. So you must be angled not to allow big damage, do not expose your broadside and use your fast reload to your favor and keep distance. The Scharnhorst also has torpedoes. Use one side to oblige the opponent to turn in the torps so they expose weak broadside and the other side (you have 3 torpedoes on each side) when you have closed in for the coup de gras.

 

You need to know the ship you chose to brawl with. You must be able to dictate the terms and conditions of the engagement. And you need to plan ahead.

 

Brawling is a delicate art. I am not a BB player but I did well with the Scharnhorst and I loved my all secondaries build.

 

Hope I added something useful in the conversation

Regards

Saltface

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25 minutes ago, BrusilovX said:

Don't forget the other aspect of brawling is that some BBs have torps which can be fired at around 6km  (much like many cruisers) - these can be a big surprise for an unsuspecting player.

 

The recently introduced Russian BBs are supposed to have improved dispersion from under 15km.

 

Even a surprise when you do expect them....A Graf Spee killed me with a single torpedo while at the time i ran into it he was at 10.1 km. I had been zigzagging so was very surprised still to be hit at such distance.

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21 minutes ago, Saltface said:

My two cents dear @NoobySkooby

 

Brawling should be understood as closing the distance of the engagement. Closing the distance is not "we charge each other and sail by each other exchanging salvos". Even if you win the engagement you will end up badly damaged and probably pray to anyone that can aim at you. Closing the distance should also be understood that you bring your secondaries in the engagement while denying the other vessel to bring her secondaries in the engagement. This means you should always be aware of the distance between the two vessels.

 

An example to illustrate.

 

The T7 Scharnhorst (considered a good brawler) has 7 Km secondaries that can penetrate 37 mm armor. If she engages a T7 Nelson (25 mm all around) I would suggest that she stays at a distance over 5.5 Km and under 7 Km as the Nelson's secondaries will have a 5.3 Km range. Now the Nelson carries all her firepower fore. So your angle of approach is also important. You have to use your speed to approach the Neslon from an angle that is favorable to you and not your adversary. And she has strong guns. So you must be angled not to allow big damage, do not expose your broadside and use your fast reload to your favor and keep distance. The Scharnhorst also has torpedoes. Use one side to oblige the opponent to turn in the torps so they expose weak broadside and the other side (you have 3 torpedoes on each side) when you have closed in for the coup de gras.

 

You need to know the ship you chose to brawl with. You must be able to dictate the terms and conditions of the engagement. And you need to plan ahead.

 

Brawling is a delicate art. I am not a BB player but I did well with the Scharnhorst and I loved my all secondaries build.

 

Hope I added something useful in the conversation

Regards

Saltface

 

You underestimate psycholgy......most PvP enemies want to keep their distance. When you push, they run. Some IJN BB are very suited for that even. Long range camping is not for nothing the dominant behaviour in PvP. When you force close combat on them - often using (visual) cover like islands -  it is panicked reactions and not cool rational play.

 

Most PvP players are pretty uncomfortable fighting close range too, it is the domain of Coop and Operations players that do this all the time.

 

PvP players do not react in ways you describe as they are at a loss. The many DD i sunk with CV secondary batteries - rediculed here often - is caused by psychology too, not rational thinking combat. Even DD with 2 launchers fail to hit a ship 200-300 meters long "point blanc" range ...because they are not cold and rational thinking when a CV comes AT them and their HP rapidly goes down,,,and there are planes diving on them at the same time.

 

It is the same when you are so close you can see how big the guns are of the BB that are all pointing on you. You know that the next one that gets the shot 1st will probably watch a violent explosion. RU BB seem especially good at this.....a Kremlin blew my 70 % HP Mushashi up in such a way..

 

 

 

 

 

 

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11 hours ago, NoobySkooby said:

But.......

 

 

 

 

When I try this, angling like I should, maybe a bit of bow tanking or kiting, I fail most times, so what is the magic essence of this technique of 'brawling'?

 

Tried it tonight in lower tier BB's but I cannot escape the fact,  I prefer a long range engagement, due to the fact BB reload times are horrendously long.

Do the opposite of anything the above poster says.

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32 minutes ago, NoobySkooby said:

Ok thanks for the replies so the learn lower tiers thing is a bit hollow then?

 

Well, in a sense of angling ofc lowtier BBs work for learning it. But the area which can bounce shells is pretty big on those. When you play something like a New York in T7 MM, you basicly cant angle, they will just overmatch your armor. Best bet is to not get close, show some broadside so they aim at your citadel. When they shoot, turn in and bounce with your belt armor.

 

Spoiler

shot-19_06.10_15_18.24-0847.thumb.jpg.b47a2cc7f1e3894debf2680aef4b8961.jpgshot-19_06.10_15_18.08-0315.thumb.jpg.ff6b62852178a0535212a91dd4c06634.jpgshot-19_06.10_15_17.54-0005.thumb.jpg.f9a80a0fee157051c7e37db7bc88b573.jpg

 

Here some example lowtier BBs:

As you see, most of them have Bow/aft with thin plating, thats where they can get overmatched by BB AP. Okto is a real tank, its covered in thick armor every except small the small parts Bow and Aft.

Orion has a little more of that thin armor, so if you sit bow in, you will easily eat a lot of damage. And Kongo is pretty squishy for most parts but the center.

 

Spoiler

shot-19_06.10_15_22.55-0584.thumb.jpg.f857596da60c5b98db2044c48f74c5fb.jpgshot-19_06.10_15_23.25-0358.thumb.jpg.d11580dd998a8cf1afe2ba8a61f3e8c4.jpgshot-19_06.10_15_22.31-0900.thumb.jpg.5e7cef2619b518ef0fa2e5d7ec5b2940.jpg

 

At T6-7 this looks a bit different however:

Bayern has still really thick armor, but can get overmatched at upper Bow/Aft sections.

NM can bounce certain BB shells, but will get overmatched everywhere except the Armor belt. Same for Nagato, where the bulges are you can bounce, but elsewhere not. But really depends what BB is shooting you. NM can bounce itself f.e., but gets overmatched by a Bayern. Nagato can overmatch itself, but can bounce Lyon.

25mm armor gets overmatched by >358mm caliber, and 27mm armor by >386mm.

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23 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

PvP players do not react in ways you describe

Which ways I describe?

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14 minutes ago, Saltface said:

Which ways I describe?

 

Acting rational and keeping a cool caulculating head, gauging their distances of secondary batteries and torpedo's and keeping enemies as far as possible but within these ranges.

 

It is not without flaws either as secondaries suffer way less dispersion up close then at their maximum range, requiring many skill points in them to improve it, a build that most players not even took. Same goes for torpedo's, the further the shot, the less likely it hits well or at all. Up close there is no dodging them.

 

There is nothing wrong with "all or nothing" broadside combat like navies did for centuries as long as it blows up the enemy. Neslon himself said so....:Smile-_tongue:

 

"No captain can do very wrong if he places his ship alongside that of the enemy." Horatio Nelson
 
( i know with these ships receiving front or rear shots was extremely dangerous, cannonballs flying through the lenght of the ship, could kill high amounts of crew and even hit the powder magazines....did play TTW series  )
 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Beastofwar said:

 

You underestimate psycholgy......most PvP enemies want to keep their distance. When you push, they run.

 

 

 

 

This is what I would do as long as I have the time to react and especially if they got the numbers. The problem is I don't always see them early enough to disengage safely. Suddenly enemy ships start popping up like magic mushrooms or something and I end up trying to bow tank several enemy ships virtually alone while most of my team is elsewhere busily losing the battle....

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3 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

Acting rational and keeping a cool caulculating head, gauging their distances of secondary batteries and torpedo's and keeping enemies as far as possible but within these ranges.

This is what good players do. This is what players that aspire to be good try to do.

So my advise is try to do this.

4 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

It is not without flaws either as secondaries suffer way less dispersion up close then at their maximum range, requiring many skill points in them to improve it, that most players not even took. Same goes for torpedo's, the further the shot, the less likely it hits well or at all.

A brawler by definition is set up with focus on secondaries. You may opt to brawl with a vessel speced for AA but I would not suggest it. And this does not fall in the realm of trying out builds that are not the norm as you advocate. Use the right tool for every job. I wouldn't try to use a screwdriver to hammer a nail.

 

In this respect, BFT, AFT and MFCSA should be seriously considered for a ship that is intended to brawl. By the way, MFCSA not only will force firing at one selected target but will give you 60% less dispersion on your secondaries (T7 and above). Also note that Secondaries are miraculously very inaccurate at close range (I don't know why yet, but it is my anecdotal observation and the observation of many others).  

 

One is not to forget the Upgrades of a ship that is intended for brawling. Auxiliary Armaments Modification 1; Aiming Systems Modification 1;  Secondary Battery Modification 2;  Secondary Battery Modification 3 etc. All these affect the reload time, range and accuracy of your secondaries.

 

So please when you say something (and give advise) please be more careful.

14 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

There is nothing wrong with "all or nothing" broadside combat like navies did for centuries.

In WoWs Random (which is an arcade game and not real life battle) it is patently wrong to do that. WoWs Random needs a bit of forethought, knowledge of the game mechanics and a basic level of skill if you wish to have an enjoyable game and successful results. And leave Nelson out of this. Quote mining will not give any validity to assertions that are blatantly erroneous. If you want to YOLO please play CoOp.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Saltface said:

 If you want to YOLO please play CoOp.

 

You dont get to decide how i play...

 

WG chose to put pathetic rewards in Coop and unrelaible ones in Operations......so I  HAVE COME TO PvP TO FARM CREDITS AND XP. ( and legendary commanders )

 

If you don't like that i am a credit/XP farmer then petition WG and beg them to equally reward Coop and Operations, and create a lot more Operations. Then you will be rid of me in PvP because  i dislike the uglyness of long range camping and hiding of of PvP. Yet, that is where the credits and XP are, as even in losing matches i can make 600K credits and 6 K XP.

 

This is also THE reason i use CV to grind credits and XP : then i can ignore camping long range combat and just farm the damned pinatas under me.  The screenshot is nothing special, just the last match so you can see that what i say i am doing, i am doing. If i am not using a CV, i am indeed using heavy BB to charge the enemy.....it often sinks me , but it racks up very good rewards in received potential damage and the salvo's that i rammed in turning and fleeying enemies. For i know long range campers and hiders will not stand...they flee.

 

But returning to the subject : as Coop and Operations player ( of the 5000+ battles the minor part is PvP ) i am well versed in the ways of close combat. I am not out of my league advising anyone how to kill in close quarters combat. Hell, i can even do it reliably to DD with CV !

 

 

WGF30.jpg

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1 hour ago, Karasu_Hidesuke said:

 

This is what I would do as long as I have the time to react and especially if they got the numbers. The problem is I don't always see them early enough to disengage safely. Suddenly enemy ships start popping up like magic mushrooms or something and I end up trying to bow tank several enemy ships virtually alone while most of my team is elsewhere busily losing the battle....

Ok getting the topic back on track, we have both been there haven't we:Smile_teethhappy:

 

 

Now me being me, I decided to make a few point an a piece of paper, high tech at it's best eh?  Not finished yet as other things came up, but basically this.....

 

 

Brawling is in fact just closing down a ship, this often requires angling, bow tanking, (head on sailing) and kiting, (turning away whilst still engaging the enemy, you turn back only when out of range, and never ever fire whilst in the turn)

 

Never shoot HE at a Bow in a head on position, always use AP, if you have to use HE aim for the superstructure.

 

Use AP for broadsides

 

Always Angle, and keep moving, but never in a straight line.

 

Have I got it in a nutshell or have i missed something,as i say just basic simple reminders, feel free to correct anything I got wrong,lol this is like homework, plus it is not finished yet.

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15 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

But returning to the subject : as Coop and Operations player ( of the 5000+ battles the minor part is PvP ) i am well versed in the ways of close combat. I am not out of my league advising anyone how to kill in close quarters combat. Hell, i can even do it reliably to DD with CV !

CV is not a BB. Nor does anything on your screenshot constitute a Brawl. Not do mention that killing a DD in a CV is has hard as butting on a hat. 

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15 minutes ago, mariouus said:

CV is not a BB. Nor does anything on your screenshot constitute a Brawl. Not do mention that killing a DD in a CV is has hard as butting on a hat. 

 

I just never made screenshots of succesful BB charges, only of DD snuffing with CV secondaries as that was rediculed and dismissed as impossible and "small size sample"

 

Which it isn't anymore....my CV secondaries see action every day, but the have to compete which gets the killing  credit : rockets, fire damage or direct secondary battery damage.

 

But i could do it....oppertunities enough, as charging enemies and punish them for a whackload of credits/XP is my playstyle...Saltface can shove his "mandatory" playstyle.

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3 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

I just never made screenshots of succesful BB charges, only of DD snuffing with CV secondaries as that was rediculed and dismissed as impossible and "small size sample"

Well... I can not see any ribbons for Secondary Hits on your Screenshot.

 

8 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

But i could do it....oppertunities enough, as charging enemies is my playstyle...Saltface can shove his.

 I know, I have even seen your " charges". Not something I would call successful. Suicidial - Yes, Successful - No.

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