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Aotearas

Use HE against DDs they say, it's more effective they say ...

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shot-19-06-07-15-46-21-0505.jpg

 

Ship I was in is Soyuz (for whomever that's important to know). 4 AP overpens did more damage than 4 HE pens (including the instant repaired fire). Next time the Asashio was spotted, he was on less than 200 HP. If I had not bothered to switch to the allegedly superious ammunition choice, I would've sunk the DD with the same number of hits with AP overpens.

 

 

I feel less and less inclined to make the conscious choice of switching to HE in anticipation of shooting at DDs since in my experience more often than not I don't get the value out of it. I seem to get higher and entirely consistent damage (with the odd multi-pen bug as added bonus) just lobbing AP at them instead. Neither do I lose to option to blap an opportunistic broadside by having HE loaded.

 

 

Can anyone at WG (@MrConway, @Crysantos, @Sehales, @Sub_Octavian) tell me if there's anything they're working on to adress this? Or is it considered as working as intended™?

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You hit his turrets and modules and dealt no damage. Same as happens regularly when shooting at any ship in the game.

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6 minutes ago, thiextar said:

You hit his turrets and modules and dealt no damage. Same as happens regularly when shooting at any ship in the game.

I know ... doesn't change the fact that the effectiveness of HE gets hampered by this (and damage saturation, another thing that AP overpens don't care about).

 

So why again ought I, in a BB, shoot HE at a DD? What's the incentive for a BB player to change ammuntion type to the superiour HE shells?

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I agree to the point, but I don't view this as one of more important issues at the moment. bb AP/HE on dd is in a better place than before, could perhaps be better tweaked, but not as game disrupting as some other things.

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Ive said that back when they were thinking about changing BB AP vs DDs.... :cap_old:

When you can you lose the entire damage because module or saturation, Overpens are still much better because of consistency. Not to mentions some nations which have so little more HE damage, that its basicly irrelevant too :cap_fainting:

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45 minutes ago, Aotearas said:

shot-19-06-07-15-46-21-0505.jpg

 

HOW did you manage hitting 4 BB HE shells on a DD and not damage either the rudder or engine or both? :cap_fainting:

Normaly the added HE damage does more damage than AP overpens and if they don't they knockout modules without the DD ususaly won't survive either.

Though it might be better atm to stay with AP if there is a low HP DD that you HAVE to sink. :cap_hmm:

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It depends where you hit him. If you hit saturated parts of the ship or modules HE is much worse, often even 0 damage. HE against unsaturated hull can result in a dev strike.

Another upside of HE are fires, if you get one he cannot flee out of detection.

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It appears my wording was a little bit too on the cheek to properly get the point across and people misunderstand my topic as asking for why I did so little damage, so here in condensed form:

 

  • HE - modules - damage saturation < AP; specifically in BB vs DD scenarios
  • Shouldn't be
  • Possible solutions: modules don't soak up all HE damage into module damage; ship HP gets redistributed to migitate the excessive impact of damage saturation on DDs*

 

*The damage saturation on DDs is particularily eggregious and obvious when they're taking torpedoes. Even a full HP DD will instantly saturate and receive significantly reduced damage from a torpedo hit on its bow/aft section. Have had MANY instances of landing an RPF torpedo on unspotted DDs at the start of the game only to end up doing around half the torpedo damage.

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In new patch modules i think contribute when hit to an overpen at least with AP idk about HE would need proper testing but i think they still contribute damage so in 8.5 DDs will be super wrecked even more.

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Solution: Don't aim at modules. Avoid shooting too high, try to hit the 'citadel', the mid-section of the hull. In some cases it is better to load AP (e.g. low HP DD with multiple saturated parts).

 

Yes, it is hard to even hit a DD, let alone hit a certain part of him. BBs aren't supposed to counter DDs, you help your DDs and cruisers who deal most of the damage to the DD. In my experience HE is more reliable at close ranges (especially in those rare cases when a DD yolos you), for everything else I usually stick to AP.

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32 minutes ago, Ze_Reckless said:

BBs aren't supposed to counter DDs, you help your DDs and cruisers who deal most of the damage to the DD. In my experience HE is more reliable at close ranges (especially in those rare cases when a DD yolos you), for everything else I usually stick to AP.

I'm not asking for BBs to counter DDs.

 

I'm asking for WG to finally fix the reality that the ammunition type that's supposed to be the most effective against DDs, simply isn't. Any time a BB player has the presence of mind to switch to HE in anticipation of shooting a DD he ought to be rewarded with more damage than hitting the same number of shells with AP overpens. Yet more often than not that isn't the case. The same is also true for any other source of incoming HE, but cruisers and DDs tend to have the RoF to compensate, not like a BB that gets perhaps one shot at a DD before it smokes up or goes otherwise undetected again.

 

And if WG wants BB players to choose ammunition types depending on what they're shooting rather than just shoot AP at everything, it's something they have to adress.

 

Besides, modules soaking up damage isn't exclusive to HE, nor something that only benefits DDs. Modules simply aren't supposed to function like ablative armour, yet that is how they essentially function in regards to the module damage system currently in place.

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Well, it isn't as easy as 'always load HE'. It depends on the situation, which DD, which HP, which range, is he broadsiding, etc. With stuff like Khaba and Harugumo eating full AP pens WG shows that they want a tiny bit of complexity for BB ammo type choice.

Most of the time you have AP loaded anyway. If someone is about to radar a DD you decide based on range and stuff if HE is worthwhile for that shot. IMO BB ammo choice is fine.

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I got called a "r*tard" in chat this afternoon for firing at an Asashio with AP, we'll ignore the fact I was in a Fiji.....!

 

The DD tried to torp me three times before he remembered Asashio can't touch a CL with his torps, in the end I chased him for 3 minutes as we had the game easily won, still couldn't get the last 100hp! lol!

 

I do suspect with HE there is more consistency of result than with AP, but RNG still has an influence.

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On 6/7/2019 at 8:42 PM, Ze_Reckless said:

Solution: Don't aim at modules.

 

Are you trolling? :cap_wander_2:

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I am sure not all DD are the same despite they all seem to have 19 mm plating that can be penetrated by all guns above 100 mm firing HE at the right angle.

 

Maybe the angle sometimes makes AP the better choice as it needs to cut through more plating distance but doesn't autobounce.

 

image.thumb.png.1598e585bca0f14630c5f1f7345e0096.png

 

 

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On 6/7/2019 at 3:06 PM, Aotearas said:

Ship I was in is Soyuz (for whomever that's important to know). 4 AP overpens did more damage than 4 HE pens (including the instant repaired fire). Next time the Asashio was spotted, he was on less than 200 HP. If I had not bothered to switch to the allegedly superious ammunition choice, I would've sunk the DD with the same number of hits with AP overpens.

 

I feel less and less inclined to make the conscious choice of switching to HE in anticipation of shooting at DDs since in my experience more often than not I don't get the value out of it. I seem to get higher and entirely consistent damage (with the odd multi-pen bug as added bonus) just lobbing AP at them instead. Neither do I lose to option to blap an opportunistic broadside by having HE loaded.

 

Can anyone at WG (@MrConway, @Crysantos, @Sehales, @Sub_Octavian) tell me if there's anything they're working on to adress this? Or is it considered as working as intended™?

 

Soyuz HE shells do 5800 dmg on a citadel, 1914 on a penetration and 0 on a shatter.

Soyuz AP shells do 13500 dmg on a citadel, 4455 on a penetration, 1350 on a penetration against a DD, 1350 on an overpen and 0 on a non-penetration or ricochet.

 

Therefore, against a DD, you can do at most 1350 dmg per shell with AP, or 1914 dmg per shell with HE. If that wasn't reason enough, HE also has more chance to cause damage to knock out modules like turrets, torpedoes, engine and steering when you hit the ship and they can also start fires.

 

The vast majority of BBs do more damage with a HE pen than they do with an AP overpen, but there is still the issue of actually loading HE to begin with. HE is definitely better to be firing at DDs, but unless you are certain you will get to take that shot or use HE against something else loading the HE often isnt worth it.

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2 hours ago, Astolfo_Is_My_Waifu said:

 

Soyuz HE shells do 5800 dmg on a citadel, 1914 on a penetration and 0 on a shatter.

Soyuz AP shells do 13500 dmg on a citadel, 4455 on a penetration, 1350 on a penetration against a DD, 1350 on an overpen and 0 on a non-penetration or ricochet.

 

Therefore, against a DD, you can do at most 1350 dmg per shell with AP, or 1914 dmg per shell with HE. If that wasn't reason enough, HE also has more chance to cause damage to knock out modules like turrets, torpedoes, engine and steering when you hit the ship and they can also start fires.

 

The vast majority of BBs do more damage with a HE pen than they do with an AP overpen, but there is still the issue of actually loading HE to begin with. HE is definitely better to be firing at DDs, but unless you are certain you will get to take that shot or use HE against something else loading the HE often isnt worth it.

Congratulations on not reading the topic.

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Ideally this would be a moot point as your secondaries should be enough to do the trick. Of course, mostly, if ever, they don't....

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23 hours ago, Aotearas said:

Congratulations on not reading the topic.

edit The entire topic of the thread is whether to use HE against DDs. That is the title of the thread, that is the anecdote you presented in your first paragraph, that is the dilema you considered in the second paragraph, that is the mechanic for which you requested a WG response from in the third paragraph.

 

I explained what influences the decision between using HE or AP and some of the process behind that because your anecdotal evidence in your first post contradicts the general behaviour of AP vs HE that you would expect to experience in the majority of situations. You claim to have done more damage with AP than HE, in that situation you did, in most situations you would not. Did you do less damage because HE is a worse shell choice? No, you could have done less damage because of saturation, you even suggest that AP could help you do more damage because of the buggy double pen mechanic yet your 4 AP pens did 5,300 damage, 100 damage less than you should have gotten from 4 AP shells so your AP shells didnt do extra damage thanks to double pens, they just did their listed damage. Your HE shells did less damage because of something like saturation, and your AP shells would have done even less damage because they would also have been effected by saturation but their listed damage is lower.

 

If you want to base your decision on anecdotal evidence rather than facts then why even create a topic? Go ask a fortune teller or pray to the gods for your answers.

 

edit: language please

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1 hour ago, Astolfo_Is_My_Waifu said:

Are you stupid? The entire topic of the thread is whether to use HE against DDs. That is the title of the thread, that is the anecdote you presented in your first paragraph, that is the dilema you considered in the second paragraph, that is the mechanic for which you requested a WG response from in the third paragraph.

 

I explained what influences the decision between using HE or AP and some of the process behind that because your anecdotal evidence in your first post contradicts the general behaviour of AP vs HE that you would expect to experience in the majority of situations. You claim to have done more damage with AP than HE, in that situation you did, in most situations you would not. Did you do less damage because HE is a worse shell choice? No, you could have done less damage because of saturation, you even suggest that AP could help you do more damage because of the buggy double pen mechanic yet your 4 AP pens did 5,300 damage, 100 damage less than you should have gotten from 4 AP shells so your AP shells didnt do extra damage thanks to double pens, they just did their listed damage. Your HE shells did less damage because of something like saturation, and your AP shells would have done even less damage because they would also have been effected by saturation but their listed damage is lower.

 

If you want to base your decision on anecdotal evidence rather than facts then why even create a topic? Go ask a fortune teller or pray to the gods for your answers.

 

The topic isn't about on whether to use HE against DDs, it's about damage mechanics such as modules soaking up shells withour dealing ship HP damage and damage saturation reducing the effectiveness of HE shells and the importance of that on ammunition selection for ships that don't have the RoF to just shrug their shoulders and fling more shells down range before a ship gets unspotted again. I find it funny though how you thought you needed to explain the rationale behind switching ammunitions to me when I'm complaining about the reality of said rationale not quite reflecting its suppposed effectiveness.

 

I also never claimed I did extra damage with the AP hits, I just added the possibility of it happening as an additional benefit you get with AP shells as opposed to the problems HE shells face the lower their effective damage output. Also, Soyuz AP damage is 13250 and not 13500. Ergo 4x1325=5300, not the imaginary 100 damage less that you came up with. If you want to do maths, get your numbers straight.

 

And no, it's not just damage saturation dealing less damage. Feel free to compare this thread on the same subject of HE shell effectiveness. It comes with a screenshot of a DD eating BB HE shells and not receiving any ship HP damage at all.

I don't know about your personal opinion because so far you've not done anything aside from sidetracking and coming up with wrong numbers, but in my own opinion if players make the conscious choice to switch ammunition because HE is supposed to be more effective against DDs, they should get rewarded by more damage (with the same number of hits) than compared to the supposedly less effective ammunition.

 

Now, you can argue that anything short of several months worth of serverwide compiled data across every single match played during that time period is just anecdotal evidence, but it doesn't change the fact that BS like this happens. To me it happens all the time, which is why I've made multiple topics about it.

 

 

 

If you can't discuss this without actually touching the subject of the topic and then rushing in with personal insults after it's being pointed out that you didn't actually comment on the subject, it's not me that ought to not bother with topics like this.

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1 minute ago, Aotearas said:

The topic isn't about on whether to use HE against DDs, it's about damage mechanics such as modules soaking up shells withour dealing ship HP damage

That's being changed.

Quote

and damage saturation reducing the effectiveness of HE shells and the importance of that on ammunition selection for ships that don't have the RoF to just shrug their shoulders and fling more shells down range before a ship gets unspotted again.

Saturation effects all damage, why would that influence your choice between AP and HE shells?

Quote

I also never claimed I did extra damage with the AP hits, I just added the possibility of it happening as an additional benefit you get with AP shells as opposed to the problems HE shells face the lower their effective damage output. Also, Soyuz AP damage is 13250 and not 13500. Ergo 4x1325=5300, not the imaginary 100 damage less that you came up with. If you want to do maths, get your numbers straight.

Indeed, my mistake. I imagined that you might have hit a saturation threshold around 5200 dmg. I even checked my Soyuz ingame to quote the numbers but I must have misread. That does nothing to change the point I was making however, which is that HE shell pens on DDs cause more damage.

Quote

And no, it's not just damage saturation dealing less damage. Feel free to compare this thread on the same subject of HE shell effectiveness. It comes with a screenshot of a DD eating BB HE shells and not receiving any ship HP damage at all.

Fascinating. If they were AP shells they also would have caused no damage.

Quote

I don't know about your personal opinion because so far you've not done anything aside from sidetracking and coming up with wrong numbers, but in my own opinion if players make the conscious choice to switch ammunition because HE is supposed to be more effective against DDs, they should get rewarded by more damage (with the same number of hits) than compared to the supposedly less effective ammunition.

You do.

Quote

Now, you can argue that anything short of several months worth of serverwide compiled data across every single match played during that time period is just anecdotal evidence, but it doesn't change the fact that BS like this happens. To me it happens all the time, which is why I've made multiple topics about it.

True, however consider what would have happened if the HE shells you had fired that caused so little damage had been AP shells instead. No splash damage would be caused to surrounding modules, no fires would be started and if you do hit the hull and cause damage the AP shells would cause less damage than the HE shells.

Quote

If you can't discuss this without actually touching the subject of the topic and then rushing in with personal insults after it's being pointed out that you didn't actually comment on the subject, it's not me that ought to bother with topics like this.

Ironic considering your response to my first post. I'm not sure you even considered that I quoted your first post because my post was a response to the content of the first post and not any subsequent posts in this thread.

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16 minutes ago, Astolfo_Is_My_Waifu said:

That's being changed.

Is it? Last thing I know is they're changing hit ribbons to make non-damage pens more obvious if you penetrated one layer of armour but shattered an another. If I missed something I'd gladly rescind my question on whether WG is aware/doing something.

 

16 minutes ago, Astolfo_Is_My_Waifu said:

Saturation effects all damage, why would that influence your choice between AP and HE shells?

AP overpenetrations aren't influenced by damage saturation. They always deal 10% maximum damage.

 

16 minutes ago, Astolfo_Is_My_Waifu said:

Fascinating. If they were AP shells they also would have caused no damage.

Possible in theory, but unlikely since DD modules don't have the armour to arm and thus detonate a BB AP shell, it will instead overpenetrate without detonating (meaning the module won't suck up the detonation) and deal the usual overpen damage. Or as far as anecdotal evidence goes, I can't even remember when the last time was I had a zero damage BB AP penetration on DD. Meanwhile I get several instance of reduced and even zero damage BB HE pens on DDs in practically every match where I bother to shoot HE at them.

 

16 minutes ago, Astolfo_Is_My_Waifu said:

You do.

If you'd look at the screenshot (for both topics), I clearly didn't.

 

16 minutes ago, Astolfo_Is_My_Waifu said:

True, however consider what would have happened if the HE shells you had fired that caused so little damage had been AP shells instead. No splash damage would be caused to surrounding modules, no fires would be started and if you do hit the hull and cause damage the AP shells would cause less damage than the HE shells.

As said two paragraphs above, unless a module has sufficient armour to arm the AP shell (which an Asashio doesn't have, every bit of its plating is overmatchable by Soyuz' 406mm AP), those four shells would overpenetrate and deal another 5300 damage, which in that case would've been enough to sink her. Not that it would've mattered in that case but with AP shells I would also stand a small chance of getting the multi-pen bug for even higher theoretical damage.

 

16 minutes ago, Astolfo_Is_My_Waifu said:

Ironic considering your response to my first post. I'm not sure you even considered that I quoted your first post because my post was a response to the content of the first post and not any subsequent posts in this thread.

Not really ironic, since you just admitted I was correct in you not reading the thread. Nor was your initial comment on subject as I have been talking about the disparity of "should be" (which you felt you had to explain to me in your post) and the actual "is". At the very best I could say you replied to the subject's setup, yet most definately not to its point or my question to it.

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56 minutes ago, Aotearas said:

Is it? Last thing I know is they're changing hit ribbons to make non-damage pens more obvious if you penetrated one layer of armour but shattered an another. If I missed something I'd gladly rescind my question on whether WG is aware/doing something.

Yeah, they hid the info nicely in this thread, I'll quote my own response as I quoted the relevant section of the original post

 

Quote

AP overpenetrations aren't influenced by damage saturation. They always deal 10% maximum damage.

That is not correct, saturation affects all damage in the exact say way. Timestamped video below, you only need to watch it for about 10 seconds.

 

If wargamings old video is not sufficient you can test this yourself.

Quote

Possible in theory, but unlikely since DD modules don't have the armour to arm and thus detonate a BB AP shell, it will instead overpenetrate without detonating (meaning the module won't suck up the detonation) and deal the usual overpen damage. Or as far as anecdotal evidence goes, I can't even remember when the last time was I had a zero damage BB AP penetration on DD. Meanwhile I get several instance of reduced and even zero damage BB HE pens on DDs in practically every match where I bother to shoot HE at them.

Yes, but overpenetrating a DD and penetrating a DD causes the same 10% of the shells maximum value as damage, with the exceptions being Khaba and Harugumo. AP shells cause zero damage penetrations all the time when shells hit modules and the damage is absorbed by an AA gun or secondary, you can probably observe this behaviour every single game.

Quote

If you'd look at the screenshot (for both topics), I clearly didn't.

Yes, hence why I referred to these as anecdotal evidence. You provided two personal examples. I am sure that in a day of playing I could provide two examples of causing more damage to DDs with HE than AP, especially if thoses AP shells are absorbed by modules and the HE shells are not. The outcome is specific to the circumstances and do not reflect generally expected behaviour because of the variables involved.

Quote

As said two paragraphs above, unless a module has sufficient armour to arm the AP shell (which an Asashio doesn't have, every bit of its plating is overmatchable by Soyuz' 406mm AP), those four shells would overpenetrate and deal another 5300 damage, which in that case would've been enough to sink her. Not that it would've mattered in that case but with AP shells I would also stand a small chance of getting the multi-pen bug for even higher theoretical damage.

Even if a module had sufficient armor to arm an AP shell I doubt it would be large enough for the shell to detonate inside once the velocity and fuse time are taken into consideration but this behaviour is entirely irrelevant against DDs because AP overpens and AP penetrations both only cause 10% of listed damage regardless.

If the 4 shells had hit and damaged the modules however then they would have done 5300 damage to the modules, not the ship, so your damage still would have been zero.

Also consider that HE hits to DD midsections (so anything that isnt the superstructure, bow, stern or a module) always inflict the full 33% penetration damage and is never affected by saturation, with the exception being the upcoming French DDs who have the ability to saturate their hulls as a national trait to improve their survivability for having neither smoke nor heal.

Quote

Not really ironic, since you just admitted I was correct in you not reading the thread. Nor was your initial comment on subject as I have been talking about the disparity of "should be" (which you felt you had to explain to me in your post) and the actual "is". At the very best I could say you replied to the subject's setup, yet most definately not to its point or my question to it.

The irony was that your first reponse to me was an insult.

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13 minutes ago, Astolfo_Is_My_Waifu said:

That is not correct, saturation affects all damage in the exact say way. Timestamped video below, you only need to watch it for about 10 seconds.

*snip*

If wargamings old video is not sufficient you can test this yourself.

 

That video is talking about regular penetrations dealing no more damage to saturated ship sections (you can see the ribbons in the clip show penetrations, not overpens). Overpenetrations deal damage to the universal ship HP, not section HP (same as fire and flooding damage). That's why overpenetrations always deal damage, even if they overpen saturated sections. Source WG Wiki.

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