To AA Spec or Not

[AbashedLemming]

This is not a CV rework rant hopefully there can be no mention of that, nor a conversation about the effectiveness of AA rather a more general discussion . We all know that the likely hood of having a CV in a match is pretty high so do you now specialise?  Obviously for some ships it is not even a consideration, I'm looking at you musashi.

 

An aa build is likely to mean a of loss main gun accuracy through the loss of the aiming module. Obviously all build types mean a compromise on modules and captain skills so have people generally gone for aa builds.

 

Would you aa spec US crusers, they are pretty good anyway, so is it worth it.  For example Worcester is pretty good without  specialising but is worth moving from a main battery build to an aa build.

 

Hopefully we can avoid rants and share ideas and experience

 

 

[Animalul2012]

If the CV knows what he is doing you are going to die no matter what you do! but if he doesnt then he wont cause problems at all besides the spoting of course! AA should be reversed to the RTS era, defensive fire consumable as well or just nerf plane HP and speed so they can spend more time in the AA and make flak dodge harder!

[Beastofwar]

This has a simple solution :

 

- Long range FLAK sphere dmg can be dodged = unreliable dmg. Continuous, non dodgable  damage component of these heavy long range guns is laughable, think in 200 damage per second that is reduced by armour and ship specific hit chance. To give an impression : US bombers can have 1700-2000 ish HP and have damage reducing armour.

 

- Short range damage : Continuous damage component of these guns is also laughable, think in 200 damage per second that is reduced by armour and ship specific hit chance.

 

Meaning ships that only have long and short range AA have appaling low AA damage, it is completely ineffective to skill into that.  You should check this, as surprisingly many ships do not have medium range AA. This is key to why they dissapoint so much.

 

- Medium range AA does a whackload of continuous AA dmg : often 1400 damage per second-ish. If you ship offers medium range AA with 1000+ damage per second it is very worthwhile to boost it higher. It also produces FLAK damage spheres and many more then long range guns. Ships that have medium range AA are the ones that are worthwhile to skill into with deep AA builds.

 

Wether or not aircraft are so terrifying you want to kill them over being more effective to other ships......that is a choice you have to make ship by ship and all by yourself too. Then ofcourse there are hybrid builds speccing half into AA, boosting values enough to be more effective but leaving skills to other purposes. Taking only basic Fire Training for example, it does not boost FLAK damage but continuous damage per second that make medium range AA so dangerous. 10 % of 1400 is still 140 damage per second more....almost as much ( 200 ) as long range and short range continuous damage do as a bonus.

[AbashedLemming]

3 minutes ago, Animalul2012 said:

If the CV knows what he is doing you are going to die no matter what you do! but if he doesnt then he wont cause problems at all besides the spoting of course! AA should be reversed to the RTS era, defensive fire consumable as well or just nerf plane HP and speed so they can spend more time in the AA and make flak dodge harder!

Interesting view, because of the scarcity of CVs in the past I often took the view that it wasn't worth specialising for few games you might need it 

[invicta2012]

11 minutes ago, AbashedLemming said:

Obviously for some ships it is not even a consideration, I'm looking at you musashi.

Fighters are often a better choice than trying to buff AA, and you can certainly mount those on a Musashi without giving up too much. 

 

18 minutes ago, AbashedLemming said:

Would you aa spec US crusers, they are pretty good anyway, so is it worth it.  For example Worcester is pretty good without  specialising but is worth moving from a main battery build to an aa build.

Ships with DP main guns, definitely. Those without? Possibly not. Better to play with the team.

[AbashedLemming]

4 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

This has a simple solution :

 

- Long range FLAK sphere dmg can be dodged = unreliable dmg. Continuous, non dodgable  damage component of these heavy long range guns is laughable, think in 200 damage per second that is reduced by armour and ship specific hit chance. To give an impression : US bombers can have 1700-2000 ish HP and have damage reducing armour.

 

- Short range damage : Continuous damage component of these guns is also laughable, think in 200 damage per second that is reduced by armour and ship specific hit chance.

 

Meaning ships that only have long and short range AA have appaling low AA damage, it is completely ineffective to skill into that.  You should check this, as surprisingly many ships do not have medium range AA. This is key to why they dissapoint so much.

 

- Medium range AA does a whackload of continuous AA dmg : often 1400 damage per second-ish. If you ship offers medium range AA with 1000+ damage per second it is very worthwhile to boost it higher.

 

Wether or not aircraft are so terrifying you want to kill them over being more effective to other ships......that is a choice you have to make ship by ship and all by yourself too.

Sure as i said for some boats it is not even worth considering. 

 

Shooting  down more planes is good, missing what you shoot at  more often is bad. 

[beercrazy]

depends on tier and original aa of the ship

I personally love playing a tier 5 Nicholas with full aa build as the enemy cv don't expect it and you can near wipe a squad of planes before they get more than 1 salvo in

 

[GulvkluderGuld]

I'm going with the best DD in the game: Minotaur. 

Might try my hand with a Harugumo or LM YY for the nice DWT, since everyone and their mother will run DFAA, no hydro this season.

 

As to AA, no DD really has it. Its true Grozo was good in the RTS era, often wrecking 2 - 3 squadrons without even taking damage. 

These days...CV doesn't care. Z52 has better AA than Grozo (no joke)

 

 

[Beastofwar]

10 minutes ago, beercrazy said:

depends on tier and original aa of the ship

I personally love playing a tier 5 Nicholas with full aa build as the enemy cv don't expect it and you can near wipe a squad of planes before they get more than 1 salvo in

 

 

You must be kidding.....Nicholas does stock 14 damage per second continuous before any reduction.

 

Same tier stock US bombers have 800 - ish HP before any reducing armour effects.

 

Meaning you need about a minute of enemy aircraft flying in the medum range AA ring to down 1 aircraft, unless it takes a direct hit in a FLAK damage sphere.

 

To put it in perspective : Minotaur does 1281 damage per second stock in the medium range AA zone, shooting at 1220 HP ( D4Y3 Susei ) bombers or 1250 HP ( Me 155A ) fighters.......these just ignite entering that AA zone.

[AbashedLemming]

14 minutes ago, invicta2012 said:

Fighters are often a better choice than trying to buff AA, and you can certainly mount those on a Musashi without giving up too much. 

 

Ships with DP main guns, definitely. Those without? Possibly not. Better to play with the team.

I agree with that. I always use a fighter on musashi and not only because I can't hit a barn door with a spotting aircraft 

[MRGTB]

I don't spec my Jean Bart for AA at all, I spec for secondary guns instead because it's all about making credits from premium ships and going full AA instead of Secondary guns doesn't help you make more credits on damage done.

[Beastofwar]

I have fighters on all the ships that can mount them, and have skilled into them too as +1 fighter means -1 less attacking aircraft left, making it easier for AA to kill the rest quicker. And it is only 1 point i got leftover anyway.

 

Or what happens often : the CV abandons attack before the fighter consumables are in position and can aggro on the CV planes.  I press F when i see fighters launched....or i lose too many planes. No airkills for that consumbale use but also no damage on your ship for the duration.

[AbashedLemming]

16 minutes ago, GTB1964 said:

I don't spec my Jean Bart for AA at all, I spec for secondary guns instead because it's all about making credits from premium ships and going full AA instead of Secondary guns doesn't help you make more credits on damage done.

That pretty much sums up my opinion, whenever I look at an AA build other options seem more worthwhile.

[invicta2012]

20 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

To put it in perspective : Minotaur does 1281 damage per second stock in the medium range AA zone, shooting at 1220 HP ( D4Y3 Susei ) bombers or 1250 HP ( Me 155A ) fighters.......these just ignite entering that AA zone.

For a similar effect at lower Tiers, Emerald is very good. You could go the whole hog and run the Fighter instead of the smoke, as well, but that's for the brave.

[beercrazy]

43 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

 

You must be kidding.....Nicholas does stock 14 damage per second continuous before any reduction.

 

Same tier stock US bombers have 800 - ish HP before any reducing armour effects.

 

Meaning you need about a minute of enemy aircraft flying in the medum range AA ring to down 1 aircraft, unless it takes a direct hit in a FLAK damage sphere.

 

To put it in perspective : Minotaur does 1281 damage per second stock in the medium range AA zone, shooting at 1220 HP ( D4Y3 Susei ) bombers or 1250 HP ( Me 155A ) fighters.......these just ignite entering that AA zone.

lols tell that to the planes I shoot down

it may say its crap aa but by god it shoots tier 6 and 4 down easy

[BLUB__BLUB]

1 hour ago, AbashedLemming said:

Would you aa spec US crusers, they are pretty good anyway, so is it worth it. 

Cruisers are a thing... but remember aerial torps don't do that much damage,

certainly not when compared to DD torps... so better keep the rudder shift.

 

In Conqueror (which has decent AA enough) I just have a sort of 19pt captain "tank build".

It negates most of the effects from torps and fires. INCLUDING aircraft damage.

You'll receive some plane bombs/torps anyway, no matter what you do - and fire reduction ALWAYS works - where AA does not.

Specced the secondaries though - and with that, the AA. But wouldn't have done it JUST for the AA.

 

[AirSupremacy]

2 hours ago, AbashedLemming said:

This is not a CV rework rant hopefully there can be no mention of that, nor a conversation about the effectiveness of AA rather a more general discussion . We all know that the likely hood of having a CV in a match is pretty high so do you now specialise?  Obviously for some ships it is not even a consideration, I'm looking at you musashi.

 

An aa build is likely to mean a of loss main gun accuracy through the loss of the aiming module. Obviously all build types mean a compromise on modules and captain skills so have people generally gone for aa builds.

 

Would you aa spec US crusers, they are pretty good anyway, so is it worth it.  For example Worcester is pretty good without  specialising but is worth moving from a main battery build to an aa build.

 

Hopefully we can avoid rants and share ideas and experience

 

 

Progressive introduction, thank you.

 

- Depends on your spawn location. It seems WG is working on "improving" that.

- Depends if it will be a match with CV`s in it ( has someone got reliable data on the % amount of T10 matches with CV`s ? ).

- Depends if you like to sail/camp with others and assist them with AA or are more a lone wolf type of player sailing/camping as lonely AA flak bunker.

- If you want to take a central map position being smoked up or want to assist other players, AA builds are always welcome on a team.

 

Kind regards from my AA flak bunker ships Midway and my beloved AA Jean Bart!

I find the JB a good compromise between AA & frontal attack cannons.

Of course its no AA match to the Mino`s or Worc`s.

 

[invicta2012]

24 minutes ago, beercrazy said:

lols tell that to the planes I shoot down

it may say its crap aa but by god it shoots tier 6 and 4 down easy

He's talking about stock. B Hull, captain with BFT, DFAA.... different story. A lot of people reactivated their Nicholas for the X plane kills part of the Exeter Marathon... worked like a charm.

[Beastofwar]

40 minutes ago, invicta2012 said:

He's talking about stock. B Hull, captain with BFT, DFAA.... different story. A lot of people reactivated their Nicholas for the X plane kills part of the Exeter Marathon... worked like a charm.

 

Yeah forgot about the B hull...that removes the FLAK damage sphere but gives 100+ damage per second non dodgable damage per second in return with 83 % hit chance. With BFT that should be 110+ damage per second but deminished by hitchance  = 91 damage per second before any aircraft armour effects.

 

If a CV player takes aircraft armour skill that negates BFT. And if i am not mistaken aircraft starting their attack run receive 30 % armour effect. All in all you should do some 58 damage per second to attacking aircraft that have 600-800 HP.

 

That may be enough to kill clueless over your head lingering CV players that may be natural to low tiers but it isn't going to fly at higher tiers where aircraft hit hard and fast, and do not hover over you endlessly.

 

Minotaur and the like need to deal with German torpedo bombers with insane approach and departure speeds, with GZ my first match start run i usually torpedo 1-3 ships that barely got moving ( will end next patch though ) damaging them, probably making their morale sink......spending very few seconds in their AA zone. Or deal with heavy armoured US bombers with 2000+ HP.

 

 

[BLUB__BLUB]

15 hours ago, Beastofwar said:

That may be enough to kill clueless over your head lingering CV players that may be natural to low tiers but it isn't going to fly at higher tiers where aircraft hit hard and fast, and do not hover over you endlessly.

He's not gonna meet those high tiers... might meet some sealclubbers though. 

On a side note, I've seen Mutsukis around that somehow have stockpiled on AA. LOL. 

[AbashedLemming]

Nobody who has responded has made a strong argument in favour of aa specs. Which supports my own view, I just think that the other options are more valuable. Use of DFAA and fighters is my main concession to it, I think fighters are pretty useful as a deterant/protection from a second or perhaps third attack

 

Other than the Nicholson troll option which sounds fun 

[GraySlayer]

To be honest I don't bother in any of my DDs as it's a waste of time ive found. I might aswell be on deck with a BB gun for the all the good it does.

 

I spec into more smokes and other more useful stuff and try and keep and eye on where his planes are. Of course if there are two Cvs then it's nigh on impossible to avoid them and you just have to trust to luck and hope he focuses someone else. If they both focus you you're done pretty much especially if they are good at aiming.

[Ryuuteimaru]

I wouldn't bother AA on most ships is now overall pretty much useless against any CV other than complete photato player, better to spending points else where.

[SirAmra]

On 5/28/2019 at 8:58 PM, Beastofwar said:

This has a simple solution :

 

- Long range FLAK sphere dmg can be dodged = unreliable dmg. Continuous, non dodgable  damage component of these heavy long range guns is laughable, think in 200 damage per second that is reduced by armour and ship specific hit chance. To give an impression : US bombers can have 1700-2000 ish HP and have damage reducing armour.

 

- Short range damage : Continuous damage component of these guns is also laughable, think in 200 damage per second that is reduced by armour and ship specific hit chance.

 

Meaning ships that only have long and short range AA have appaling low AA damage, it is completely ineffective to skill into that.  You should check this, as surprisingly many ships do not have medium range AA. This is key to why they dissapoint so much.

 

- Medium range AA does a whackload of continuous AA dmg : often 1400 damage per second-ish. If you ship offers medium range AA with 1000+ damage per second it is very worthwhile to boost it higher. It also produces FLAK damage spheres and many more then long range guns. Ships that have medium range AA are the ones that are worthwhile to skill into with deep AA builds.

 

Wether or not aircraft are so terrifying you want to kill them over being more effective to other ships......that is a choice you have to make ship by ship and all by yourself too. Then ofcourse there are hybrid builds speccing half into AA, boosting values enough to be more effective but leaving skills to other purposes. Taking only basic Fire Training for example, it does not boost FLAK damage but continuous damage per second that make medium range AA so dangerous. 10 % of 1400 is still 140 damage per second more....almost as much ( 200 ) as long range and short range continuous damage do as a bonus.

I had to look up my HIV now. Cause this CA shreds planes for me atm.
Jupp. Long range is 195. Bubble is 1764

Medium is 731 and bubble is 1323.

Haven't tried the Mino that much since I'm on the final leg on the LM on the HIV.

Only have BFT and AA mod 1.

[SirAmra]

On 5/28/2019 at 9:27 PM, GTB1964 said:

I don't spec my Jean Bart for AA at all, I spec for secondary guns instead because it's all about making credits from premium ships and going full AA instead of Secondary guns doesn't help you make more credits on damage done.

I have too. But the JB has a purdy stronk AA though.