Hakuryu's alternative torpedo bombers

[Tanatoy]

Based on the results of the Public test of 0.8.4, we decided to revert changes to the J5N Tenrai Type 91 mod. 8 torpedo bombers of the Japanese tier X Hakuryu aircraft carrier. Today we would like to tell you about the reasons behind this. 

 

The main weakness of the carriers in game, including Hakuryu, is a group of ships protecting each other from planes. In the current state on the main server, torpedo bombers with a large attack range are much less efficient than standard torpedo bombers. But changing the parameters of the J5N Tenrai Type 91 mod. 8 showed that, as they strengthened, the Japanese aircraft carrier loses this shortcoming and becomes a universal ship, capable of attacking any target. In order to balance such settings, it is necessary to almost completely change the parameters of the aircraft carrier and all its squadrons, changing the whole concept of the ship.

 

Therefore, we decided to remove the possibility of installing J5N Tenrai Type 91 mod 8 torpedos in several updates for Hakuryu and compensate the costs of their research and purchase. Details will be published on the official game website.

 

World of Warships team

[Aotearas]

Any changes to the mod.7 TBs? Currently a 6x2 attack flight composition isn't very sustainable given how much longer the squadron has to weather AA to get all its attack runs onto a target when compared to the typical 3x3 attack flight composition of other tier X CVs (i.e.: double the AA exposure to attack with the entire squadron).

 

Are we going to a see a change to 4x3 or perhaps 3x4 attack flights?

[LowSpeedHighDrag]

Excuse my ignorance, but by taking away the "J5N Tenrai Type 91 mod. 8". What will be replaced? Or will there be only 1 type of Torpedo bombers for this carrier?

 

[Panocek]

1 hour ago, LowSpeedHighDrag said:

Excuse my ignorance, but by taking away the "J5N Tenrai Type 91 mod. 8". What will be replaced? Or will there be only 1 type of Torpedo bombers for this carrier?

 

Only one option for (non stock) TB, while mod 8 will presumably will be reimbursed with Free Exp and credits

[NoDrawOceanfloor]

7 hours ago, Tanatoy said:

Therefore, we decided to remove the possibility of installing J5N Tenrai Type 91 mod 8 torpedos in several updates for Hakuryu and compensate the costs of their research and purchase.

I'm a bit confused about the "in". Does it mean that the option will be removed with 0.8.4 and introduced again later, or does this mean that the option will be removed in a later update?

 

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Did I get this right?

 

Are you seriously removing something because it's too weak? I get why too powerful long range torpedos from a CV can be a problem as they discourage what every other CV encourages (grouping up) and I agree that something has to be done to these torps to make them more viable or to Hakuryu as a whole to incorporate these torpedos more.

But it's so unique! At least leave them as an option. These torps are easy enough to dodge if you know they are coming. But, if you can manage to pull off a perfect stealth attack, never get spotted, and actually hit a ship or two, I think you've earned it!

Personally, I've just started to use them and I think they are way more fun than traditional ones. Doing stealth drops and predicting lead at such long distances is a challange, and that's why I love these torps. (Still doing considerably less damage than with the mod 7 torpedos, but I'm not completely wasting my team's time.)

 

Please, leave them as an option, a bad option, a unique option, an option that takes a lot of time and effort to potentially master.

Or at least tell me, that this concept won't be gone forever.

[Vinyl_ScratchPlays]

I honestly think its funny that they think they are too "weak" considering when I use my Haku thats the ones I always use.
the 2 torp setup I feel is easier but weaker but then again, harder as you get less protental dmg off while endureing the same amount of AA if you drop close.

Honestly this just looks like they don't want anyone to stealth drop then anything else.

[LowSpeedHighDrag]

Here's a funny thing. I've tried many times to take advantage of the "stealth" aspect of the said torpedoes. The term "stealth" is a misnomer.

These torps have an arming range of over 1000m (1182m to be precise), with a speed of 40kts. Once they are dropped into water, they are seen from another map. What is the stealth of these torpedoes? The planes themselves? that is not the deciding factor. Any planes can use same tactics to drop torpedoes, while being "detected". 

 

What really is annoying is that the 2 torpedo drop of Type 91 mod. 7 is just that. Two torpedoes. That is not taking into consideration that the plane HP out of all CVs out there are lower.

You may argue that "Hak has AP bombs vs HE for citadel damage". However, AP bombs suffer more from RNG and while it suffers from the handicap of not being able to incur damage towards DDs vs using HE bombs. It also suffers from RNG for other types of ships. You'd have to be a super unicum to continuously get 2+ Citadel hits per drop, or have really good RNG. While other CVs with HE bombs get more bombs per drops (upgraded). As well as having the advantage of being a multi-use type arsenal (able to be used against, destroyers, cruisers, battleships). 

 

I don't see the reasoning behind this particular decision. I'd like to know what particular factor that convinced the WG staff that these planes are breaking their data curve. 

Instead of giving us a generic explanation. I'd like to know the justification of the changes to be made clear. The "why", and "what" are once again, not clear.

 

 

 

[80yearoldpotato]

 

42 minutes ago, LowSpeedHighDrag said:

Here's a funny thing. I've tried many times to take advantage of the "stealth" aspect of the said torpedoes. The term "stealth" is a misnomer.

These torps have an arming range of over 1000m (1182m to be precise), with a speed of 40kts. Once they are dropped into water, they are seen from another map. What is the stealth of these torpedoes? The planes themselves? that is not the deciding factor. Any planes can use same tactics to drop torpedoes, while being "detected". 

 

What really is annoying is that the 2 torpedo drop of Type 91 mod. 7 is just that. Two torpedoes. That is not taking into consideration that the plane HP out of all CVs out there are lower.

You may argue that "Hak has AP bombs vs HE for citadel damage". However, AP bombs suffer more from RNG and while it suffers from the handicap of not being able to incur damage towards DDs vs using HE bombs. It also suffers from RNG for other types of ships. You'd have to be a super unicum to continuously get 2+ Citadel hits per drop, or have really good RNG. While other CVs with HE bombs get more bombs per drops (upgraded). As well as having the advantage of being a multi-use type arsenal (able to be used against, destroyers, cruisers, battleships). 

 

I don't see the reasoning behind this particular decision. I'd like to know what particular factor that convinced the WG staff that these planes are breaking their data curve. 

Instead of giving us a generic explanation. I'd like to know the justification of the changes to be made clear. The "why", and "what" are once again, not clear.

 

 

 

The reasoning is that  the mod. 8 alternative is abit too overpowered if they are viable. as of late they have not been viable just because the speed and detection of the torps got super nerfed. 

 

initially haku was supposed to be torp focused and midway bomb focused. And after all the nerfs ( yes haku was stupidly overpowered, Yes midway he bobmers are stupidly accurate, because they can drop so low) the difference is between the ships are fading.

 

i agree with WG, removing the mod.8 is probably better  because the differences are like this.

 

midway = 6 slow torps with low dmg

Audacious = 3 torps medium dmg

Haku = 2 torps high dmg 

 

Midway = medium amount of HE bombs with high dmg

Audacious = high amount HEbombs low dmg saturation

Haku = low amount of AP bombs with High dmg.

 

while i agree AP bombs can be hard to use, i dont agree that their dmg is low. You just need to know when to start the dive and when to drop in the curve in order to hit your target correctly.

[NoDrawOceanfloor]

4 hours ago, LowSpeedHighDrag said:

Here's a funny thing. I've tried many times to take advantage of the "stealth" aspect of the said torpedoes. The term "stealth" is a misnomer.

These torps have an arming range of over 1000m (1182m to be precise), with a speed of 40kts. Once they are dropped into water, they are seen from another map. What is the stealth of these torpedoes? The planes themselves? that is not the deciding factor. Any planes can use same tactics to drop torpedoes, while being "detected".

I think there might be a bit of confusion about what a stealth drop is.

These torpedo bombers are the only planes in the game where the torpedo range outranges their detection range (8km torpedo range, 7.5km plane detection range which you can get down to 6.1km if you use both Concealment Expert and Concealment System Modification 1.), i.e. you can drop torpedos on an enemy and still have a 1.9km window to turn your squadron around to not get spotted by the enemy. In that case, the first indication an enemy has, that he has been attacked, is the torpedos themselves (which have an aroud 1km detection range, I believe) leaving him with a lot less time to evade than he would have had when he sees the bombers coming for 7.5/6.1km and hears his AA firing or when he sees four planes detaching from the squadron at e.g. 6 km. He may not see the torpedos, but he knows that they are coming and can easily evade them.

Of course, guessing the correct lead and turning around in time is what makes stealth drops so challanging and fun, in my opinion.

So:

4 hours ago, LowSpeedHighDrag said:

Any planes can use same tactics to drop torpedoes, while being "detected".

but the key to this tactic to drop torpedoes is not being "detected".

 

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4 hours ago, LowSpeedHighDrag said:

I don't see the reasoning behind this particular decision. I'd like to know what particular factor that convinced the WG staff that these planes are breaking their data curve. 

Instead of giving us a generic explanation. I'd like to know the justification of the changes to be made clear. The "why", and "what" are once again, not clear.

The longest range AA in the game only extends to, to my knowledge, 7km, which means that you can drop these torpedos outside of AA range (and even further outside of mid-range AA, which is often far stronger than long range) (or technically even drop 900m inside AA range without being shot at if you go for a concealment build). And I think this is why WG is struggling to buff these, as the main tactic to counter CVs is to sail together in a group, so you can cover allies with your AA and allies can cover you with their AA. But since you'll be droping from outside AA range or even invisibility, you'll want to drop into groups so you're more likely to hit a ship.

While all other CVs encourage grouping up as attacking a group will cost the CV more planes due to stronger AA, these torpedo bombers discourage grouping up as you make yourself an easier target for them and they completely ignore the AA of grouped up ships.

So I get why making these torpedos more viable isn't as easy as... well... just buffing them.

 

Still, I don't get why they have to be removed, if they already are so much less viable than the mod 7 torpedos, instead of leaving them just as they are for the few people who enjoy opting out of the reliable damage the mod 7 torpedos offer to use the mod 8 torpedos for the challenge and uniqueness.

[LowSpeedHighDrag]

Those during testing, was deemed fine. Now, we are told that they will be outright taken away.  I just understand it. 

The ones that effectively, utilise those torps (using them within it's limits) are few and far between. As it stands, Midway has far more damage factor than any other CVs out there. 

Not that I'm encouraging any changes, just pointing out the experiences with them. 

[Hopeless_Guppy]

On 5/24/2019 at 2:03 PM, UltraViking said:

 

The reasoning is that  the mod. 8 alternative is abit too overpowered if they are viable. as of late they have not been viable just because the speed and detection of the torps got super nerfed. 

 

initially haku was supposed to be torp focused and midway bomb focused. And after all the nerfs ( yes haku was stupidly overpowered, Yes midway he bobmers are stupidly accurate, because they can drop so low) the difference is between the ships are fading.

 

i agree with WG, removing the mod.8 is probably better  because the differences are like this.

 

midway = 6 slow torps with low dmg

Audacious = 3 torps medium dmg

Haku = 2 torps high dmg 

 

Midway = medium amount of HE bombs with high dmg

Audacious = high amount HEbombs low dmg saturation

Haku = low amount of AP bombs with High dmg.

 

while i agree AP bombs can be hard to use, i dont agree that their dmg is low. You just need to know when to start the dive and when to drop in the curve in order to hit your target correctly.

Two torps at tier X is just not good enough, if they are going to remove the four drop then buff the type 7 to three torps per drop, same withe Shokaku at tier 8, give it the same four torp drop as the kaga, all that grind and all for nothing