Gun firing DDs are now for masochists only

[almtrain]

I will cut straight to the chase,

In randoms, Gun firing DDs, especially Daring and Jutland are utterly broken as soon as there is a CV in the game, period. You get farmed and killed as soon as you try to do what these ships were build to do. That is short to midrange gunfights and contesting caps.

They have no AA. So in solo randoms they rely on other Players to support against planes.  = your royally fucked!

A combination of factors actually make them exceptionally frustrating to Play.

1. You can not shoot down a single plane even with sectors. 1 max 2 planes of a t8 carrier when he does his 3rd attack run, on a t10 dd daring is the best you can hope for.

2. Your dependend on incompetent CV Team mates, that dont care to give any suppoort. Had games where I asked a straight 5 minutes for support. The enemy CV did 10 attack runs untill he sunk my daring.

3. The enemy CV loves to farm non stop, because daring & jut are the easiest pray.

4. There is no counterplay to getting constantly farmed once CV finds you

5. CV rocket volleys hits with up to 8k on a ship that has barely more than 20k Health.

6. If unlucky you just get chunked at the beginning of the game, total randomness.

 

It's really sad and frustrating that this is the state of gun firing dds at the Moment! Have I forgot to Mention any hardships? Who else feels this way?

 

 

 

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Is this a CV thread in disguise? ♡

Fear not because i can suggest to you the best place to discuss all the issues you are having with likeminded and friendly forumites! ☆

 

♡☆CV DISCUSSION☆♡

 

Click the link to enter paradise and discuss op cv with us! ☆♡☆

[thiextar]

Hes right tho, gunboat destroyers are really pointless now, they cant play agressively and duel stuff at short range, and if you are gonna stay at long range, you might aswell use a cruiser....

[ColonelPete]

I prefer 2CV per team in EVERY match to ever having such an uncreative player on my team...

[Deckeru_Maiku]

1 hour ago, almtrain said:

In randoms, Gun firing DDs ... are utterly broken as soon as there is a CV in the game, period.

 

Easy solution: play low tier DDs (T3 or 4) where you can only meet the quite useless T4 CVs.

[Aotearas]

I love how the narrative is that you're totally helpless in a DD, than you can't do anything to counter it and that random teammates are never going to help you ...

 

Which is false: simply being near allied AA is enough to discourage most attention from CVs. Even if your random teammate is doing NOTHING to help you out, the simple fact he has AA doesn't change unless of course said random teammate has his AA turned off for whatever reason, but honestly if you want AA help you run to a friendly cruiser/battleship and I the amount of times I've seen a cruiser/battleship with their AA turned off is something I can count on one hand and have plenty of fingers to spare poking holes into this fatalist nonsense argument.

 

Neither is this anything new. Any DD that thought it could sail around relatively isolated from allies was just as easy prey to a halfway competent CV pre-rework.

 

 

Maybe what you need to do is not free XP your way to the hightiers and actually learn the necessary awareness and counter-positioning skills for DDs vs CVs in an environment that isn't as punishing as tier X ...

[thiextar]

5 minutes ago, Aotearas said:

I love how the narrative is that you're totally helpless in a DD, than you can't do anything to counter it and that random teammates are never going to help you ...

 

Which is false: simply being near allied AA is enough to discourage most attention from CVs. Even if your random teammate is doing NOTHING to help you out, the simple fact he has AA doesn't change unless of course said random teammate has his AA turned off for whatever reason, but honestly if you want AA help you run to a friendly cruiser/battleship and I the amount of times I've seen a cruiser/battleship with their AA turned off is something I can count on one hand and have plenty of fingers to spare poking holes into this fatalist nonsense argument.

 

Neither is this anything new. Any DD that thought it could sail around relatively isolated from allies was just as easy prey to a halfway competent CV pre-rework.

 

 

Maybe what you need to do is not free XP your way to the hightiers and actually learn the necessary awareness and counter-positioning skills for DDs vs CVs in an environment that isn't as punishing as tier X ...

But then i might aswell just play a cruiser...

[Hugh_Ruka]

1 hour ago, almtrain said:

I will cut straight to the chase,

In randoms, Gun firing DDs, especially Daring and Jutland are utterly broken as soon as there is a CV in the game, period. You get farmed and killed as soon as you try to do what these ships were build to do. That is short to midrange gunfights and contesting caps.

They have no AA. So in solo randoms they rely on other Players to support against planes.  = your royally fucked!

A combination of factors actually make them exceptionally frustrating to Play.

1. You can not shoot down a single plane even with sectors. 1 max 2 planes of a t8 carrier when he does his 3rd attack run, on a t10 dd daring is the best you can hope for.

2. Your dependend on incompetent CV Team mates, that dont care to give any suppoort. Had games where I asked a straight 5 minutes for support. The enemy CV did 10 attack runs untill he sunk my daring.

3. The enemy CV loves to farm non stop, because daring & jut are the easiest pray.

4. There is no counterplay to getting constantly farmed once CV finds you

5. CV rocket volleys hits with up to 8k on a ship that has barely more than 20k Health.

6. If unlucky you just get chunked at the beginning of the game, total randomness.

 

It's really sad and frustrating that this is the state of gun firing dds at the Moment! Have I forgot to Mention any hardships? Who else feels this way?

 

 

 

Daring or Jutland having issues ? Tell that to my TRB Kagero ....

[Aotearas]

15 minutes ago, thiextar said:

But then i might aswell just play a cruiser...

I dare say some people might be surprised how difficult it can be for even competent CVs to drop on a DD that simply has its AA turned off. Only finding one as you get close to ~3km to it isn't as easy as some people seem to think it is and if your DD has especially good air detectability (less than 3km) it's almost impossible to even drop it if you're the one spotting him because the attack preparation time takes so long you're likely to overshoot the target before you can physically drop your rockets on him (nevermind letting the targeting reticule narrow down for better accuracy).

 

10 minutes ago, Hugh_Ruka said:

Daring or Jutland having issues ? Tell that to my TRB Kagero ....

 

IJN DDs for example with on average ~2.5km air detectability are a real nuisance if they simply never put on their AA as you have to start your attackrun even before you spot them. Which means it's easy to countermanouver into the attack planes to completely mess up the drop. Only way to get a good drop on such a DD is to have someone else spot them for you, at which point it's the same concealment game as with surface ships that any competent DD player should be familiar enough to work with.

 

 

Nevermind that playing as independent in a cruiser is just as much a deathsentence to a determined CV player. The moment you're all nicely isolated from allied AA, even something like a Des Moines/Worcester becomes an opportunistic target. You saw a Des Moines getting harassed by rocket aircraft taking out 10k HP with every pass? Been there, done that, both sides of the engagement.

 

 

CVs will always beat isolated ships. Doesn't matter if DD, CA/CL or BB. If it's alone, it'll hurt. The trick is being close enough to allied ships that you can just dip into their AA range if the CV starts oggling you, stay there until the CV decided it's not worth waiting for you and when he sods off searching for more cooperative (read: isolated) targets you can go about your usual DD business again, repeat as necessary.

[invicta2012]

1 hour ago, almtrain said:

In randoms, Gun firing DDs, especially Daring and Jutland are utterly broken as soon as there is a CV in the game, period.

You'll be wanting one of those new French ones, matey. I hear they might be about to give the gunboat DD a second lease of life. 

 

In any case, aren't Daring and Jutland supposed to be multi-purpose DDs, strong around caps and in a melee, rather than pure gunboats? With lots of eight gun DDs about and incoming at high tiers - Cossack, Kleber, Moggie, Somers - a change of playstyle looks inevitable with or without CVs in the game. 

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, thiextar said:

But then i might aswell just play a cruiser...

 

I have fun cap contesting in my Radar Mino:

[Yukikaze_AL]

Vor 19 Minuten, Hugh_Ruka sagte:

Daring or Jutland having issues ? Tell that to my TRB Kagero ....

 

[Yosha_AtaIante]

I can see you Boris...

 

♡ make me proud ♡

[Aotearas]

2 minutes ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

I can see you Boris...

 

♡ make me proud ♡

 

[Hopeless_Guppy]

3 hours ago, ColonelPete said:

I prefer 2CV per team in EVERY match to ever having such an uncreative player on my team...

Lol, he could alternatively go CV hunting, lol, I find more and more now that DD's tend to do this, these are the players that adapt, well in my eyes anyway.

[That_Other_Nid]

1 hour ago, NoobySkooby said:

Lol, he could alternatively go CV hunting, lol, I find more and more now that DD's tend to do this, these are the players that adapt, well in my eyes anyway.

Well yeah, stay away from caps for a few minutes to see where the planes turn up and then go somewhere else. It really isn't hard. 

[Infiriel]

Laughs in Harugumo, Sims, Kidd, etc.

Just removes the CV`s already though.

[eliastion]

9 hours ago, almtrain said:

I will cut straight to the chase,

In randoms, Gun firing DDs, especially Daring and Jutland are utterly broken as soon as there is a CV in the game, period. You get farmed and killed as soon as you try to do what these ships were build to do. That is short to midrange gunfights and contesting caps.

They have no AA. So in solo randoms they rely on other Players to support against planes.  = your royally fucked!

A combination of factors actually make them exceptionally frustrating to Play.

The last weekly data for Daring gives us her average winrate at 52.77% with 34.7% survival rate and 49467 average damage. Much broken, such sad. That's more damage, winrate AND survival rate than, say, Grozovoi, known for being very dangerous to planes. That's more winrate and survival rate than Minotaur that's absolutely dreaded by CV players (and yes, Minotaur does have some more average damage, but we're talking a cruiser here).

And, if you want to whine about "gun firing DDs" - don't let me pull out the stats of the IJN torpboats - the least "gun firing" DD line in the game.

 

All that said, yes, if you play poorly and ignore CVs, playing as if they were not there, you WILL suffer, even in a ship as OP as Daring. And yes, part of playing competently involves using cooperating with your team. But cooperating with your team doesn't mean spamming "requesting support" button. Whether it's friendly AA cruisers that you want to come and expose themselves to provide aA cover for you or the friendly CV that you want to teleport their planes from the other side of the map to drop a squadron of fighters over you - it just doesn't work. It's nice when the allies are willing to go out of their way to help you, but you need to understand that

1. Sometimes you're wrong in assuming that they CAN help you

2. Sometimes you're wrong in assuming that helping you would be the best thing they could be doing with whatever power they wield at the moment

Add to that the fact the overall competence level of players isn't exactly all that high and helping allies is often more boring than farming damage or something - and you'll quickly realize that the point is to "help yourself" by utilizing your teammates rather than expect them to be intentionally helpful.

 

Now, back to Daring specifically.

9 hours ago, almtrain said:

1. You can not shoot down a single plane even with sectors. 1 max 2 planes of a t8 carrier when he does his 3rd attack run, on a t10 dd daring is the best you can hope for.

2. Your dependend on incompetent CV Team mates, that dont care to give any suppoort. Had games where I asked a straight 5 minutes for support. The enemy CV did 10 attack runs untill he sunk my daring.

3. The enemy CV loves to farm non stop, because daring & jut are the easiest pray.

4. There is no counterplay to getting constantly farmed once CV finds you 

Daring doesn't have powerful AA but she does have the British smoke and that generally means that whenever you need smoke, you have it. This gives you a lot of wiggle room. Unless you get really out of position, the standard procedure of "being farmed by a CV" goes something like this:

1. You spot the enemy planes (if they are HE bombers or rocket planes, you see them from afar - only IJN rocket planes are somewhat stealthy)

2. You slow down and pop smoke that you have ready because you're a RN DD.

3. The CV flies over your smoke and can't see you, perhaps drops fighters to spot you if you try to leave. Maybe fires blindly at where you seemed to be (going) when you disappeared, a stray rocket might indeed hit you.

4. The fighters are spotted by friendly ships that you did NOT distance yourself far enough from for this to not be possible

5. If allied AA doesn't reach, then you shoot down the fighters yourself, your AA is easily good enough to do that; the CV probably isn't even in the vicinity with their planes because sitting over you for the whole duration of smoke, even RN smoke, would be a colossal waste of time

6. Congratulations, you've just survived the aerial onslaught with minimal - if any - damage.

 

9 hours ago, almtrain said:

5. CV rocket volleys hits with up to 8k on a ship that has barely more than 20k Health.

If you are stationary, spotted and the RNGods smile on the CV? Perhaps it's possible.

 

9 hours ago, almtrain said:

6. If unlucky you just get chunked at the beginning of the game, total randomness.

No, not really. If you really receive a big hit at the beginning of the game, it means that you ignored CVs and steamed towards the nearest cap, leaving the allies far behind you. This is a very big risk - planes will try to get you and your smoke will work both ways when you're so far from allies, not to mention the threat of Radars... DDs should try and contest caps - but that doesn't make just yoloing into them at the beginning of the match a viable strategy. Even if it is "random" in the sense that it isn't punished every time...

 

TL&DR

9 hours ago, almtrain said:

It's really sad and frustrating that this is the state of gun firing dds at the Moment! Have I forgot to Mention any hardships? Who else feels this way?

Despite your bad experience, the state of Daring, at the very least, doesn't seem bad at all. She's one of - if not THE best t10 DD at the moment: does decent damage, farms good kills, survives over 1/3 of her battles and wins often. I'm sorry to say, but if you really struggle in her, the problem is probably not with the ship...

[almtrain]

Hey, thanks for the participation. Thiexar gets the Point I wanted to make. 

If the answer to CV is to shut up and adapt, the Problem is that Cruiser are outright MUCH better at sailing at a distance and firing guns. So why would I Play a gun Fighting DD / or knife fighting dd.

 

A big Problem here is also, that even if you gimp yourself and just sail in Company of others:

A.) it doe not mean your safe
b.) If you then 10 mintues in the game decide to cap the odds against CV have not changed. The cap essentially is like an additional "Radar" for the CV, and the farming can beginn.

 

I'm not saying that you cannot have success in some games "when the stars allign". It's not just not fun to Play gunfighter dd because the nature of your success is determined largely by the CV Players decision to allow it. Or your teammates decision to help or ignore you. 

to the Point that CV were Always imbalanced. TRUE but they were not nearly as prevalent so it would by far not matter so much than today.

to the Point that CV can punish isolated ships, also TRUE, but other ships can fullfill their role well while in Company further back as they have the range and gun Systems to so. If I sail with a gunfighting dd I'm Bound to stay passive for large portions of the game.

Eg. recently when I Play a des moines or a Henri, It's possible to carry Pretty hard games, as I can fire and deal significant Damage/kill targets for large parts of the game without having to hold back just for the CV sake. With daring eg. It's really situational. Sometimes I manage to wreck enemy dds and win games. Other times I just get found and farmed. And I'm already playing more cautious and do all the Things you mentioned when CVs are present.

 

[almtrain]

22 minutes ago, eliastion said:

9 hours ago, almtrain said:

5. CV rocket volleys hits with up to 8k on a ship that has barely more than 20k Health.

If you are stationary, spotted and the RNGods smile on the CV? Perhaps it's possible.

It's rng it happens more often at full Speed than you think.

 

23 minutes ago, eliastion said:

9 hours ago, almtrain said:

It's really sad and frustrating that this is the state of gun firing dds at the Moment! Have I forgot to Mention any hardships? Who else feels this way?

Despite your bad experience, the state of Daring, at the very least, doesn't seem bad at all. She's one of - if not THE best t10 DD at the moment: does decent damage, farms good kills, survives over 1/3 of her battles and wins often. I'm sorry to say, but if you really struggle in her, the problem is probably not with the ship...

Have winrate at 60% at the Moment with daring. But I can pull of 7X% in Cruisers. (my Overall dont reflect that Claim, because ther is a learnign curve, last 400-600 games solo random support it though). I agree also that daring is very strong at her role. But my Point is wether  you succeed in playing that close range dd role is Pretty random, as planes can Pop up any time, they are 5 times faster than your ship. And they can ruin your day.

Im not refering to the Moment when your in a 1 vs1. I'm referring to typical fight situations, when your commited at a cap and fight enemy dds. Especially in These Moments when your close there is 1 ship you want to kill. 2-3 ships you want to angle or avoid against using cover, and then the CV swoops in. 

THat happens alot, as CV is desinged as an opportunistic class.


 

[The_Finnster]

39 minutes ago, eliastion said:

The last weekly data for Daring gives us her average winrate at 52.77% with 34.7% survival rate and 49467 average damage. Much broken, such sad. That's more damage, winrate AND survival rate than, say, Grozovoi, known for being very dangerous to planes. That's more winrate and survival rate than Minotaur that's absolutely dreaded by CV players (and yes, Minotaur does have some more average damage, but we're talking a cruiser here).

And, if you want to whine about "gun firing DDs" - don't let me pull out the stats of the IJN torpboats - the least "gun firing" DD line in the game.

 

All that said, yes, if you play poorly and ignore CVs, playing as if they were not there, you WILL suffer, even in a ship as OP as Daring. And yes, part of playing competently involves using cooperating with your team. But cooperating with your team doesn't mean spamming "requesting support" button. Whether it's friendly AA cruisers that you want to come and expose themselves to provide aA cover for you or the friendly CV that you want to teleport their planes from the other side of the map to drop a squadron of fighters over you - it just doesn't work. It's nice when the allies are willing to go out of their way to help you, but you need to understand that

1. Sometimes you're wrong in assuming that they CAN help you

2. Sometimes you're wrong in assuming that helping you would be the best thing they could be doing with whatever power they wield at the moment

Add to that the fact the overall competence level of players isn't exactly all that high and helping allies is often more boring than farming damage or something - and you'll quickly realize that the point is to "help yourself" by utilizing your teammates rather than expect them to be intentionally helpful.

 

Now, back to Daring specifically.

Daring doesn't have powerful AA but she does have the British smoke and that generally means that whenever you need smoke, you have it. This gives you a lot of wiggle room. Unless you get really out of position, the standard procedure of "being farmed by a CV" goes something like this:

1. You spot the enemy planes (if they are HE bombers or rocket planes, you see them from afar - only IJN rocket planes are somewhat stealthy)

2. You slow down and pop smoke that you have ready because you're a RN DD.

3. The CV flies over your smoke and can't see you, perhaps drops fighters to spot you if you try to leave. Maybe fires blindly at where you seemed to be (going) when you disappeared, a stray rocket might indeed hit you.

4. The fighters are spotted by friendly ships that you did NOT distance yourself far enough from for this to not be possible

5. If allied AA doesn't reach, then you shoot down the fighters yourself, your AA is easily good enough to do that; the CV probably isn't even in the vicinity with their planes because sitting over you for the whole duration of smoke, even RN smoke, would be a colossal waste of time

6. Congratulations, you've just survived the aerial onslaught with minimal - if any - damage.

 

If you are stationary, spotted and the RNGods smile on the CV? Perhaps it's possible.

 

No, not really. If you really receive a big hit at the beginning of the game, it means that you ignored CVs and steamed towards the nearest cap, leaving the allies far behind you. This is a very big risk - planes will try to get you and your smoke will work both ways when you're so far from allies, not to mention the threat of Radars... DDs should try and contest caps - but that doesn't make just yoloing into them at the beginning of the match a viable strategy. Even if it is "random" in the sense that it isn't punished every time...

 

TL&DR

Despite your bad experience, the state of Daring, at the very least, doesn't seem bad at all. She's one of - if not THE best t10 DD at the moment: does decent damage, farms good kills, survives over 1/3 of her battles and wins often. I'm sorry to say, but if you really struggle in her, the problem is probably not with the ship...

Can we not have reasoned replies that make sense, please. It ruins the fun of whining.

[almtrain]

Also to point the point about good statistics. Daring is played by very few players as you can see on the leaderboard. The better players are the early adopters. So it’s merely a statistical bias in my opinion. 

[ColonelPete]

13 minutes ago, almtrain said:

Also to point the point about good statistics. Daring is played by very few players as you can see on the leaderboard. The better players are the early adopters. So it’s merely a statistical bias in my opinion. 

That can explain some difference, but not everything.

The UK DD are not THAT new anymore.

[veslingr]

10 hours ago, almtrain said:

I will cut straight to the chase,

In randoms, Gun firing DDs, especially Daring and Jutland are utterly broken as soon as there is a CV in the game, period. You get farmed and killed as soon as you try to do what these ships were build to do. That is short to midrange gunfights and contesting caps.

They have no AA. So in solo randoms they rely on other Players to support against planes.  = your royally fucked!

A combination of factors actually make them exceptionally frustrating to Play.

1. You can not shoot down a single plane even with sectors. 1 max 2 planes of a t8 carrier when he does his 3rd attack run, on a t10 dd daring is the best you can hope for.

2. Your dependend on incompetent CV Team mates, that dont care to give any suppoort. Had games where I asked a straight 5 minutes for support. The enemy CV did 10 attack runs untill he sunk my daring.

3. The enemy CV loves to farm non stop, because daring & jut are the easiest pray.

4. There is no counterplay to getting constantly farmed once CV finds you

5. CV rocket volleys hits with up to 8k on a ship that has barely more than 20k Health.

6. If unlucky you just get chunked at the beginning of the game, total randomness.

 

It's really sad and frustrating that this is the state of gun firing dds at the Moment! Have I forgot to Mention any hardships? Who else feels this way?

 

 

 

1. untrue

2. team play in team game is hardest to find

3. CV loves solo targets

4. yes there it is

5. very very rarely it hits 8 k....usually 2-3 k

6. it is LTP

[Cambera_1]

10 minutes ago, almtrain said:

CV is desinged as an opportunistic class.

As is a gun-boat destroyer.

* Both CVs(planes not hull) and DDs are multi-functional classes typically fast and manoeuvrable, though both have their exceptions! (RN DDs are slow, some Russian DDs turn like a supertanker, RN aircraft are slow, German aircraft don't turn too well.)

* Both can spot, one typically by stealth, the other by speed.

* Both require skilled players and captains to be used effectively.

* Both are 'glory hunters' in the eyes of the other players.

* Both are relatively weak.

* Both dislike Minotaurs and Worcesters.

* Both are easy to mishandle and screw things up bad.

* Both have to be careful about target selection.

* Both have other classes that would love to get them removed from the game as they 'aren't fair'.

* Both are a hoot to play when things go well.

* Both get 'ordered around' with demands for intelligence, capping, assistance, smoke, etc, by other players who want to play their match their way.

* Both struggle to deal with each other.

* Both can work effectively together.

 

Yes, lots of similarities. No wonder there is competition between them.

 

I must disclose that I do use both of these classes.

Also I find that the Daring is very good at knocking down aircraft. The skills that give her more dakka, give her more AA. She might not be the best at it but she certainly isn't too bad. Her lack of AA within 1km is a pain but not the end of the world.