Will Somers render the Shimakaze redundant?

[Hannibalurg]

I am looking for a reason to use the Shimakaza above the Somers.

 

Pro Somers

- Better torps (range, detection)

- Better Guns

- Better profile

 

Con Somers

No AA

 

Somers have 12 vs Shimas 15 torps. And lets face it 20km Torps are utterly useless and spotable from Space, why in any case you one choose Shima over Somers?

[T0byJug]

7 minutes ago, Hannibalurg said:

I am looking for a reason to use the Shimakaza above the Somers.

 

Pro Somers

- Better torps (range, detection)

- Better Guns

- Better profile

 

Con Somers

No AA

 

Somers have 12 vs Shimas 15 torps. And lets face it 20km Torps are utterly useless and spotable from Space, why in any case you one choose Shima over Somers?

Shima is free...

 

Somers has not even arrived on the live server yet for the supertesters.. Its a bit early to call yet... she may well change a lot after we take her out in some randoms.

Somers will be Steel/Free XP or coal i would guess. Which will limit her availability

[ZWC]

- It is Japanese. (I play nations I like more and was a line I choose to go) btw. I do like the lower Japanese tier line ships as well. 
- She looks better (matter of opinion)
- I like to play the vessels that I like more above the one that performs better.
- fast torps not 20km. but 16km. or the close combat 81knots 

Well I play to have fun and use my free-time as relaxing and well used.
To me that is having a good time.
Therefor I will not play the meta but simply the vessels of my liking. at that moment of mindset.
 

[El2aZeR]

- implying Shima isn't already obsolete

[T0byJug]

Just now, El2aZeR said:

- implying Shima isn't already obsolete

She is still one of the most played ship ships game.. and she has made a huge resurgence in CLAN Battles second only to Gearing as most played DD in Clan battles... 

[El2aZeR]

2 minutes ago, T0byJug said:

She is still one of the most played ship ships game

 

Just because she is popular doesn't mean she is effective. In fact she is the prime example of it.

She has a niche in CBs, true. Which will likely get destroyed via introduction of CVs however.

[veslingr]

8 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Just because she is popular doesn't mean she is effective. In fact she is the prime example of it.

She has a niche in CBs, true. Which will likely get destroyed via introduction of CVs however.

CV will never enter CB, be sure of that.

 

Shima needs DW torpedos :)

[Hopeless_Guppy]

I'm a long way off the shima by miles, got to work up the IJN BB and CV line first, but i am always impressed by those torp spams.

[Tyrendian89]

37 minutes ago, Hannibalurg said:

- Better Guns

debatable. Somers with the stats we know right now has the gunpower of a Cossack with its 4x2 5" guns on 5s reload, arguably a bit worse because USN arcs. And while Cossack is certainly a strong DD, it's a T8... Meanwhile, Shima gets one less turret, slightly worse reload - but the significantly better IJN alpha and fire chance, plus much better arcs.

[T0byJug]

13 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Just because she is popular doesn't mean she is effective. In fact she is the prime example of it.

She has a niche in CBs, true. Which will likely get destroyed via introduction of CVs however.

 Go wash you mouth out.. CV in CLAN... NOOOOOOO

 

4 minutes ago, veslingr said:

CV will never enter CB, be sure of that.

 

Shima needs DW torpedos :)

Don't count on that there coming to ranked.. its a short step from ranked to clan.....   I hope to god you correct BUT

[22cm]

Usually the team who has more Shimas will lose in randoms... 

[OldschoolGaming_YouTube]

44 minutes ago, Hannibalurg said:

I am looking for a reason to use the Shimakaza above the Somers.

 

Pro Somers

- Better torps (range, detection)

- Better Guns

- Better profile

 

Con Somers

No AA

 

Somers have 12 vs Shimas 15 torps. And lets face it 20km Torps are utterly useless and spotable from Space, why in any case you one choose Shima over Somers?

Hasent Shime been redundant for about 2-3 years? Its a pale shadow of it formal self.

[fumtu]

Maybe WG could use USS Moffett in her mid was configuration, with only two quadruple torpedo tubes but still with four main turrets and somewhat (but not significantly) improved AA. 

 

 

Somers looks quite strong to me, even with 5sec reload on guns. I guess first CC tests we can expect with 0.8.4. which is I guess this week.

 

 

[lup3s]

3 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

- implying Shima isn't already obsolete

 

SHE IS NOT 

 

I even played her with F3s yesterday 

[lovelacebeer]

Sadly despite her popularity the Shima isn't the monster she used to be and whilst you can still have some very good games in her, your more reliant on the stupidity of your opponents than anything else. A fact I blame on the highly visible Torps (oxygen fuelled my backside).

 

So quite frankly as a torp boat the Somers will probably replace the Shima unless it's heavily nerfed from what I have seen from CCs. Which also wouldn't surprise me torp boats are not exactly popular with the wider community. 

[Saltface]

5 hours ago, Hannibalurg said:

I am looking for a reason to use the Shimakaza above the Somers.

I am looking for a reason to use the Shimakaza (sic) above the Fletcher.

[Tyrendian89]

10 minutes ago, Saltface said:

I am looking for a reason to use the Shimakaza (sic) above the Fletcher.

if you want to go purely by strength and effectiveness... there arent many.

Doesn't mean Shima can't be fun at times - those torp walls are still plenty deadly when you do get to use them. It's just not nearly as reliable as with other DDs  because you lack the means to defend yourself against even T8 carriers or some of the lower-tier DDs, so Shima needs to be played very carefully (and Somers doesnt look to be much different in that regard with its mediocre gunpower and laughable AA). Top-Tier Fletcher can be a lot bolder usually.

[FixCVs_Nautical_Metaphor]

It makes no sense to even contemplate a premium DD in the CV-contaminated matter.

Any kind.

[Saltface]

1 minute ago, Tyrendian89 said:

if you want to go purely by strength and effectiveness... there arent many.

Doesn't mean Shima can't be fun at times - those torp walls are still plenty deadly when you do get to use them. It's just not nearly as reliable as with other DDs  because you lack the means to defend yourself against even T8 carriers or some of the lower-tier DDs, so Shima needs to be played very carefully (and Somers doesnt look to be much different in that regard with its mediocre gunpower and laughable AA). Top-Tier Fletcher can be a lot bolder usually.

 

True. I accept what you say.

 

But, damn there is always a but, Fletcher is a T10 in T9 garment. (I would be the merry jester if she swaps place with Gearing) She shoots better and her torps (shorter ranged and less) still present a wall of skill. And...in the current meta... AA that can deter a lower tier CV from using you as practice target. Anyway, I have her (Shima) I don't play her. Same as the Gearing. I am the idiot that goes in a T10 division with the Fletcher. Maybe because she works just fine for me. 

 

However, if Somers proves to be a good torpedo boat I ll play it.

 

 

 

[Karasu_Browarszky]

7 minutes ago, FixCVs_Nautical_Metaphor said:

It makes no sense to even contemplate a premium DD in the CV-contaminated matter.

Any kind.

 

DD's can work in a CV game but true, it's more down to something other than your own efforts. I still manage to do decent money on my Asashio on average.

 

(So much so that I even get.. uh.. 'complimentary' messages after battle...)

[Saltface]

5 minutes ago, FixCVs_Nautical_Metaphor said:

It makes no sense to even contemplate a premium DD in the CV-contaminated matter.

Any kind.

 

Sorry my friend. I will respectfully disagree.

I learnt how to play DD after the rework. (blame @Tyrendian89 as he was instrumental in teaching me) 

And I do fine. 

 

DDs are fine

(we could use a bit less spotting ... true)

but then BBs could not sail in a straight line.

 

Where are you @Procrastes it rhymes.

 

Regards

Saltface

 

 

 

[Tyrendian89]

20 minutes ago, Saltface said:

I am the idiot that goes in a T10 division with the Fletcher.

I am the exact same idiot.

So... high five for that?

 

I mean, an even more extreme example is Chung Mu vs Yue Yang - after the nerfs to the latter, Chung Mu is not just on par but the objectively superior ship. So yay for WG balance department I guess...?

 

 

And I suppose (to get back on topic) Somers does have the torpedo range, along with sheer volume, to still at least be relevant even if CV presence or superior enemy DD gunpower forces it to hang back. Shima 12km is sometimes a bit tight for that depending on map and position...

[OldschoolGaming_YouTube]

6 hours ago, NoobySkooby said:

I'm a long way off the shima by miles, got to work up the IJN BB and CV line first, but i am always impressed by those torp spams.

 

Those were the days....

[Aotearas]

2 hours ago, Tyrendian89 said:

And I suppose (to get back on topic) Somers does have the torpedo range, along with sheer volume, to still at least be relevant even if CV presence or superior enemy DD gunpower forces it to hang back. Shima 12km is sometimes a bit tight for that depending on map and position...

Let's not forget the Somers with three quad launchers will also have a faster torpedo reload as opposed to quintuple launchers (unless WG decides to tweak reload timers outside of the usual launch tube number scaling). With 12 vs 15 torpedo broadside but faster reload cycling the theoretical torpedo dpm should be quite comparable, except that the Somers (currently) has access to the much better Gearing torps with their added range and better torpedo concealment.

[Saltface]

 

EDIT - This table is wrong. Error was found by @I_m_just_lucky

Corrected table in page 3

21 hours ago, Aotearas said:

with their added range and better torpedo concealment.

Range is not so much of a factor. So many things can happen at long range and your target might change course. Therefore, long range attacks with torpedoes have a lower probability of being successful. Torpedo concealment on the other hand is very important, but, it has to be seen together with torpedo speed.

The following table summarizes:

 

	Speed (Kts)	Speed (Km/h)	Detection (Km/h)	Time (sec)
Gearing Mark 17	66	122.232	1.4	41.23
Shimakaze Type 93	62	114.824	2.5	78.38
Shimakaze Type 95	67	124.084	1.7	49.32
Shimakaze Type F3	76	140.752	1.8	46.04

 

If you are attacked by a Gearing you have about 5 seconds less to react.