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We need a video of "how it works" on IJN AP bombs vs certain BB

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So after playing numberous of games and facing the likes of Conq, Jean Bart, Alace, Replique, I decided its time for me to go to the training ground and get some sense into this. I cant hit a citadel on those BB even if my life depeneded on it. I thought perhaps training ground is the best solution where the ships are stationary and unarmed. Easy right? I picked those ships and tested all altitudes from point blank drop to the highest peak point including flight speed. I found zero consistensy, absolute zero, negative actualy, because I feel my IQ dropped. I actualy feel dumber after leaving the training ground.

 

I did all my tests on Repl and Conq, I felt tired after that and didnt even test Alace. 

From my 73 drops I managed to land 6 citadels. As I expected point blank resulted in zero citadels, but I expected more from mid range and high altitude. My first citadel came after my 30 bomb, the one where I decided it would be my last one. I had absoluitely zero hope going for that shot, it was a mid air drop and resulted in 3 citadels against Repl. Like are you kidding me? 3 citadels after I have numberously repeated that same drop? So I decided to stick with Repl for a little longer and see how exactly I managed to get those 3 citadels. I go again, straight after, I get 2 citadels. Nice I think, maybe Im onto something here, but the next same 20 drops resulted in nothing. I gave up on Repl. So since I decided I was not gonna land 50 or more on Conq since I was getting tired, I started to test from mid air altitude, dropped a couple with no result. I tried high altitude with no succes either. When I was reaching my end, I dropped from the very high peak where I slowed down my plains and finaly gained my 1 and only citadel on Conq. I tried to repeat it with no succes. I tried absolutely everything find any consitency, but I gave up. So whats the deal here WG? I would love to see your guide of how it works because I cant seem to figure it out.

 

shot-19_05.18_14_24.17-0824.thumb.jpg.1a94cfcb8f68798c2a7a311427171c46.jpg 

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[SHAFT]
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UK/French BBs sits very low, and are pretty small in general IIRC. When Conqueror gets changed, Citadels might become more frequent.

I think best bet is check armor model in port and see, which part the Citadel sits at, see if that makes a difference.

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5 hours ago, DFens_666 said:

UK/French BBs sits very low, and are pretty small in general IIRC. When Conqueror gets changed, Citadels might become more frequent.

I think best bet is check armor model in port and see, which part the Citadel sits at, see if that makes a difference.

I have tried everything. Unless someone comes here and tells me he found a consistent pattern Im not buying it. What change to Conq are you talking about?

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AP bombs are primarily anti cruiser and anti German BB and anti Yamato, because their citadel is relatively high. UK/Croissant are unreachable, US you need possibly vertical ie early drop to score citadels and even then its RNG.

 

Distance from deck to citadel is one thing, citadel width from above is another. Repu cit is basically DD wide and you could argue quite number of BBs have narrower citadel than cruisers.

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have u tried rushing the nose yet, dropping last moment of the strike ruffly around the main guns n punching the citadel through the aft?

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1 hour ago, Zlaraki said:

What change to Conq are you talking about?

If testing goes well, there might be a chance that RN BBs get their citadel raised to ABOVE water line levels. Although Sub_Oct stated that it currently is just a concept in testing on the Conq and on the Monarch.

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1 hour ago, Allied_Winter said:
Can you give us a penetration value of AP bombs? It's really interesting to know. Thanks.
A:
Hosho (Type 99 25 Mod1): 174
Ruyjo (Type 3 25 Mod1 Mk4): 228
Shokaku (Type 2 50 Mark1): 262
Hakuryu (Type 2 80 Mk5 Mod1): 351
Enterprise (M62): 244
GZ (PD 500): 334 (pre buff)
These should be the base values. Please take this into account:
  1. Penetration capability is always the same, it's not affected by anything.
  2. However, bombs interact with effective armor, so angle matters and they even can bounce.
  3. They have normalization. It's base value is bigger than AP shells, but it's applied non-linearly; if the angle is bad, even great normalization won't help.
  4. Aircraft angle and speed affect bomb speed and trajectory (but bombs do not loose penetration from speed!). Which means that for maximum penetration capabilities we must make the drop as close to 90 degrees as possible -> dropping early. For soft targets it may make sense to drop lately because, as with AP shells, for soft targets you don't want overpens and increasing effective armor turns into a benefit.

 

This should help.

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I think that is one of the main problems with CVs right now, the high skill difference between IJN AP Bombs and US HE Bombs.  Compared to the IJN AP Bombs the HE Bombs are a no brainer, because it is easy to understand how to use it and quite easy to use. IJN AP Bombs more than often don't make sense. HE Bombs can be used against everything, IJN AP Bombs I only use if I don't have anything else.

 

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[LAFIE]
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Said it before and I'll say it again, even the most informative videos won't be any use because the people that need to watch them the most, won't.

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50 minutes ago, sgtmarple said:

I think that is one of the main problems with CVs right now, the high skill difference between IJN AP Bombs and US HE Bombs.  Compared to the IJN AP Bombs the HE Bombs are a no brainer, because it is easy to understand how to use it and quite easy to use. IJN AP Bombs more than often don't make sense. HE Bombs can be used against everything, IJN AP Bombs I only use if I don't have anything else.

 

Quite true.

 

I use AP bombs on german BBs, its about the only ships that i can reliably citadel. And even that is a stretch. TBs are just so much more reliable to use.

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IJN AP DB’s murder German and Russian BB’s. Most heavy cruisers and certainly the likes of Worcester and Mino. The torps are more effective against RN and French BB’s. And the rockets start enough fires to keep damage ticking. Had no problems with Shokaku and so far not having any with Hak. 

 

Its just practise with where to drop and at what point to drop.

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Vor 6 Stunden, Bear_Necessities sagte:

IJN AP DB’s murder German and Russian BB’s. Most heavy cruisers and certainly the likes of Worcester and Mino. The torps are more effective against RN and French BB’s. And the rockets start enough fires to keep damage ticking. Had no problems with Shokaku and so far not having any with Hak. 

 

Its just practise with where to drop and at what point to drop.

Maybe, but I bet we wouldn't have that many CV Problems and rage about them, especially from DDs, if US HE Bombs would work differently. You just described a target selection for IJN AP Bombs, while the US CV Player says: "Thats cute! But I can DB everything."

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22 minutes ago, sgtmarple said:

Maybe, but I bet we wouldn't have that many CV Problems and rage about them, especially from DDs, if US HE Bombs would work differently. You just described a target selection for IJN AP Bombs, while the US CV Player says: "Thats cute! But I can DB everything."

HE damage can be fully repaired however, AP cits, not so much. So when you say HE DB a Conq it just goes “That fire damage is cute, I’m just going to print my ships HP again”.

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13 hours ago, Panocek said:

US you need possibly vertical ie early drop to score citadels and even then its RNG.

You got to drop early on US ones, but the cits are quite reliable.

 

For the frenchies, just don't even bother.

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I've never used AP bombs before so I undertook the same testing against all the tier 8 BB using the Enterprise. Like the OP I found it impossible to get anything but the odd random citadel against any BB that wasn't german. I also found it made next to no difference what height I dropped from with the exception that if I dropped in the very last moments as the planes were pulling up I'd often get a poor drop. I came away with the conclusion it didn't really matter when I dropped, the only important thing was to maximise the area of the aiming circle filled by the target.

 

A "how it works" video would be nice to save time and make sure I've not missed stuff. I didn't find the explanation of AP bomb mechanics provided after the re-work to be all that relevant or accurate.

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Vor 1 Stunde, Bear_Necessities sagte:

HE damage can be fully repaired however, AP cits, not so much. So when you say HE DB a Conq it just goes “That fire damage is cute, I’m just going to print my ships HP again”.

That is one ship, meanwhile I can delete any DD with HE Bombs and it is one Conq with a used heal which considering the heals of RN BBs ain't to shabby.  AP Bombs are inferior to HE Bombs , just because HE Bombs do work and AP Bomb are limited in their Target selections, very limited.

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7 minutes ago, sgtmarple said:

That is one ship, meanwhile I can delete any DD with HE Bombs and it is one Conq with a used heal which considering the heals of RN BBs ain't to shabby.  AP Bombs are inferior to HE Bombs , just because HE Bombs do work and AP Bomb are limited in their Target selections, very limited.

AP bombs aren’t inferior. Players who can’t use them are inferior. This is a thread about IJN bombs anyway. Why derail it with a pointless contest of “who bombs best”...

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Have better luck with US and brit CVs(well the tier 6 brit one) than the IJN CVs. Enterprise is also somewhat lackluster compared to lexington. I think the better rocket attack vs dds is better on lex. The HE vs AP is somewhat target dependent. Can delete a cruiser with enterprise APs and it is nice. 10 plane fighter drop is really nice, like it a lot. But overall it feels the HE bombs er much more reliable. That is something that often is worth a lot more. True experts like el2zar and others is better with AP bombs than the HE bombs. Damage though can not be denied and a used DCP is one less to use when facing other ships. Besides sometimes you can hit after it has been used. 

 

As said the need to change the HE bomb drop is a sure indicator that HE bombs rule at the moment. 

 

Damage farming or influence on the match. There has been different strategies. 

 

I can see when I play that attacks on dds is just much better in overall XP gains. Thus US with their rockets and HE bombs(vs dds) is better compared to IJN or brits for that matter. 

 

Often it is an overall effect of the 3 plane types that determine the strength of the carrier. Having a bad plane type can be problematic when you run out of planes of the two other plane types. Plus the 

extra 2 planes on deck from the start is better with 3 strong plane types than one or two. That is the reason why I like the US the most. Must say that the brits is growing on me fast though. The torp planes combined with

fire setting dive bombers is great.

 

US: strong vs dds, good HE vs dds,cruiser and bbs, torps good vs bbs.

IJN: lackluster rocket planes, Overall worse bombs than us and brits. , Torps is good but do not work that much for me...so do not like the line that much.

Brits: Possible the worst rocket planes of them all(have only tier 6), Bombs are awsome fire starters...can be devastating vs used DCP targets., Torps is super easy to hit with. Torps that hit is always better than potential high damage torps that do not hit players with a brain. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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French tier 6-7 BB's are great AP targets too, together with German BB's that tier. When higher tier i use them on Cruisers and even (some)  tier IX-X DD as they seem to have armour enough to activate the AP fuse, i noticed that because rockets have dissapointing effect on them.

 

Those heavy armoured tier VIII BB require torpedo's or rockets to the superstructure ( fires )

 

That angle thing ( 90 degrees or as close to ) dropping before diving had the most reliable penetrating effect i noticed early on. But it is countered by usually less accuracy as the reticule isn't zoomed in usually at that point.

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Well when 0.8.4 hits we will know more about how the bomb accuracy is affected. Whether that affects ap or he bombs the most.

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The main problem with IJN AP bombs is the consistency.

 

From playing Shokaku (which I'd unlocked before the rework) and Ryujo I can recall widly differing results. Some examples I can recall are:

 

Deleting around 1/3rd of a Lyon's HP with my first wave a couple of minutes after the battle had started.

Overpenning US BBs and even some German ones.

Getting overpens on cruisers sometimes then the next time citadelling an Ibuki right at the bottom of the dive when I released.

 

I have to wonder if citadel chances are dependent on the height the bombs are dropped at. Or am I misunderstanding AP bomb mechanics entirely?

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2 hours ago, Fine_Wares said:

I have to wonder if citadel chances are dependent on the height the bombs are dropped at. Or am I misunderstanding AP bomb mechanics entirely?

AP bombs have VERY sensitive fuse (20mm for Ryujo and I expect as much on Shokek/Haku) and have short fuse time, short enough for bomb to detonate before reaching citadel.

 

From Q&A

15 hours ago, Allied_Winter said:
Q: Can you give us a penetration value of AP bombs? It's really interesting to know. Thanks.
A:
Hosho (Type 99 25 Mod1): 174
Ruyjo (Type 3 25 Mod1 Mk4): 228
Shokaku (Type 2 50 Mark1): 262
Hakuryu (Type 2 80 Mk5 Mod1): 351
Enterprise (M62): 244
GZ (PD 500): 334 (pre buff)
These should be the base values. Please take this into account:
  1. Penetration capability is always the same, it's not affected by anything.
  2. However, bombs interact with effective armor, so angle matters and they even can bounce.
  3. They have normalization. It's base value is bigger than AP shells, but it's applied non-linearly; if the angle is bad, even great normalization won't help.
  4. Aircraft angle and speed affect bomb speed and trajectory (but bombs do not loose penetration from speed!). Which means that for maximum penetration capabilities we must make the drop as close to 90 degrees as possible -> dropping early. For soft targets it may make sense to drop lately because, as with AP shells, for soft targets you don't want overpens and increasing effective armor turns into a benefit.

 

As guessed, AP bombs, especially on Haku have top kek penetration, as I was able to citadel Yamato even on late drops despite 200mm cit roof. Nice to see confirmation speed doesn't matter on bomb penetration, even if its derpy.

 

@El2aZeR also something for you and your waifu

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