The Perfect CV rerework ? (Suggestion and idea for argumentation)

[Darkbogden]

Hello !

 

First of all, i would like to say that I understand why would WG want to rework the CV section.

 

So, i will introduce my self first.

 

You my notice that i is one of my first topic launch. Because as a player, i dedicate more of my time playing than going on forums. (not that it is useless, but because i like play. But i like to check it sometimes for guides etc.)

 

You also might ask why would i introduce myself a bit, and that would be not useful ?

 

It is to show what profile is talking about that big warzone topic that is CV.

 

I am a player that came when playing wot around 2015. I heard about WoWs during this period (not exact). and WoWs was the only game that make me interested about ships in WW2, because before that, i was more in star wars stuff but never mind.

I play WoWs when most of the ships where IJN and USN. So as a newbie a "make" a dream list of boat. Bceuase a a newcomer of WG game we dont know how much exp it will requiert to reach TX and even get skills to even carry or can play at lower tier. So chose somes. ad begin the play.

 

PLUS as i am not a big ultra fan at the beginning, i play and farm mostly "for fun and learn purposes" first. But as a casual player i also switch games to games.

I play WoWs more like seasonly or intensly but not continously.

As some player already said in other post while searching for guides was that:

the first 500 game whill show you how hard it is to learn.

The 1000 game will give u a little bit of XP and show you how deep the strat can be.

 

I am now at my 1000 game.

 

I know few thing but not a lot as a dedicated WoWs player.

So i had a lot of feelings in the game because i might not be well describe their but i might not play the game has a loyal man. But when i play a game, and this game. I like to learn, lose, win and understand the mechanics.

Remember the FEELINGS.

When it comes to feelings, you chose your ships and then became the first impressions.

BB are slow tanky and not that manoeuvrable.

CA/CL are kind of a medium ship

DD are fast manoeuvrable and sneaky ships.

 

AND THEN CV: when i first tried out (in RTS version) i was a bit lost because of the RTS view. Not because it was a strange design. But because i wasnt able to see the more straigt. The view was to much zoomed and was in a feeling of dive. Much like watching the ground.

(FIRST SUGGESTION IN RTS MODE that disapear was and would be: having a scaling RTS view between the actual view and the map one.)

 

I feel CV a different and interesting gameplay. EVEN if i lost most of my first CV game. I felt like if i was a bit better, i would shredd ships. So i learnt about manual drop and straffs

(SECOND SUGGESTION IN RTS MODE taht disapear was and would be: why does manual straffs and drop removed for T4/T5 ?)

 

Beside overall interfaces view of CV game play.

 

I would like to compare both the RTS version of the CV gameplay and the 0.8.0 now 0.8.3 gameplay.

But after that you might also say that feelings or not important compared to the balance.

Maybe but WG isnt trash as a dev team. (maybe only edit team might be the one)

So game designer can pretty sur mix both things. Game play design and feelings shared by it.

Back to the comparison:

 

RTS first feelings: The CV seems to be a strategic boat which need to be greatly placed to get to the point where both defending team mates and attacking is efficient. because of the multi suqad control thing.

 

0.8.0 firstr feelings: The CV seems to be a hangar for squad aircraft spawn to play a shoot game

 

I know i might exaggerate. But it is that. The RTS view show and make the CV playuer more immersed as a CV captain. Feelings like how CV works in real life during WW2. (I know they dont do exactly same ! but will be more fidele to it)

The best image for CV feels during RTS mode was that the captain/player was like a captain faced to a map whith icon that represent the suad that he control, more like an essential role.

Where now the 0.8 make it feel an other way. For sur it keep his same role but loses that feeling. But more of a hangar where u are a pilot squad captain that just takeoff a ship.

 

SO ! i am almost in the RTS team for sur, BUT i also understand what make the new system more appealing for some reasons and for some player bases.

 

Thats why it is the same with each boat.

DD feels weak but manoeuvrable, and can make some supprise attack

 

CA/CL feels like a support ground force. That have the role of giving opportunity for mate to could do their role (their might be exeption but corect me if so) As HE on BB to avoid them aving great angle on mates. Radaring DD to avoid traps. Hydroing avoinding and preventing Torps for BB. Etc...

 

BB feels tanky and powerful in exchange of their manoeuvrability.

 and CV are same, they have the role of controling the air space, provinding air supp and air attack to give opportunity to other to accomplish their own role.

For me it is almost like a RPG/MOBA game where each ship have their own spec and gameplay role.

 

it is the same thing and must be fiedel as much as possible in synergy with the game design.

 

(I almost talk about the feels more that the game adjstement. but wait a bit...)

 

For the good sake of CV from RTS to 0.8. Why not just merge both design to be accurate ?

Why not keeping the RTS par because of the feelings ?

 

Because most of the time from what i saw, 0.8 is better because alpha stike is less painfull. But more for DD.

It cant deplane harder an oppennent.

It is more joyful for newcomer. (not me sadly, but why not make them enoying the ancien ver ? (thats mostly because of the inefficency of T4/T5))

And about the feeling of being closer to the fight that on RTS view. It is false acording to the CV feels design.

It isnt meant to be Close combat feeling. (ofc according to the feels again)

 

So why not mix feels of CV and adjustment to make it pleasant for all ?

 

Now maybe my aumentation and essay was woobly, but for sur, all player who are passionnate about ships whill understand what are those feelings.

It is not about simplifying gameplay.

It is about TWEAKING to get the perfect mesure for low tier and top tier as the Mighty shredder midway.

 

SO

 

What are what i suggest ?

remember that this is suggestion.

First i will use the battle of midway as an example. When Lexington and other USN CV iirc where attempting to attack yamamoto's main fleet. It was at first a recon war where they both "reconing" to could be the first to give the strike.

And then being the big waves of planes. from wikipedia, not sur exactly. USS lexington had a space for aircraft of 22 fighters, 36 bombers and 12 torps bombers.

I know that the desing of making only one big armada of planes going threw the map isnt great... or IS IT ?

 

So why not for the new hypothetical rerework have a limited hangar of planes ?

As accurate as possible but with possibility to tweak and changes the ammount of each kind of Aircrafts for diversity and design purpose.

Because of the enoughly big amount of planes, like multi squad control as the RTS mode.

 

The view will be mainly RTS but wil more scale view to get the perfect angling.

 

Iwould add like a new type of planes while erasing the inacurate missile attack planes (tell me if i am wrong).

Their will be 4 type : Recon planes

Fighters

Bombers

Torp Bombers

 

CAUTION. i know that CV were not meant to recon on both game build.

But why not as in midway battle ?

We have to tweak Fighters Bombers Torp Bombers to have a shorter range of view. And a rannge of view for recon planes to be limited at 6km

(even fewer than the current stage)

OFC, they wont be a lot. Only one can be flying around per CV, and only on other one is in the hangar. With as the RTS have given to fighters=AMMO.

Here for recoin will be fuel or time limited flying path. like 3 min for 2 min CD.

Enough fragile to get shredded when on risky moves because of the 6km.

And more over to be less paintless ofr DD ! = they wont ping the type of boat at a certain rage like 6 km for a point ping in minimap only, and a ship type ping on minimap only when at 4-3 km. (depending on the type of boat. Which gives a deeper mecanics for concealment in relation with planes). More over ! Even if info is shared for all team. It will be retarded and delay of around 10 or 15 sec depending on CV to consider the "logistic" of how does recon transmit the message to the CV and when the CV will give info (as a radio wave)

AGAIN more over, only recon will send infos to CV for Point ping and ship type ping on minimap ONLY. (CV will share that for all mates. BUT Fighters Bombers Torp Bombers wont recon for others, only info for CV)

 

From the begining of a game their would be like maybe a timer for all planes. before take of. But only recon one is working on CD.

Other wil be like generating planes in CD from hangar to completly make a squad. maybe like 60 sec before recon take off. And 90 sec before Squand ready with only one plane and others ore preparing for CV dock and squad ?

Like that CV early snipe and early recon woudnt be effective.

 

Wouldint that be interresting.

(Remeber that this is suggestion about my argumentation of how would rework be interesting and how could it be to please every body)

 

So we please DD and all for "reconning" thing no ?

The system of attack would for me be same as RTS for Fighters Bombers Torp Bombers

BUT with already fully aimed system.

with only AA degrading the aim.

 

Maybe as for BB normalisation variable, penetration variable etc.

Planes as Fighters Bombers Torp Bombers can have their own variable as morale or "determination"

Where the more AA they took, the more they began inacurate and have less window time to launch attack.

OFC it will be tweaked for each nation. (ex: IJN will withstand more AA damage to degrade the accuration of the drop fewer, but increase the chance of taking AA damage.

 

That will give as more "secret deth" as penetration variable, healing party, fires, flooding. etc.

 

Overall, from stats the planes would have a greater chance to hit targer or at least drop payload. even with the AA debuff aiming. But will take more damage.

So less plane form same squad can drop. It will drop but not as a full squad.

 

For AA work now.

It woulbe be interesting to keep this new AA system. But also with his own accuracy variable.

lIke the more time planes are in the AA range, the more damage it will took from it. of course the variable will depend on remaing aa on boat and in how many AA zone they are in (from how many ships zones)

And maybe put more over the sector renforcement system, a target priority thing as before which act like 5 or 10% faster atteining a Max AA damage from the variable. Like it will take more and faster damage from stying in zone. which by this way will decrease the variable of other ssquand in the same zone.

 

Doesnt adding new variable for CV planes AA system better that rework all the system and loosing all the feels ?

I know that it might need tweak in my suggestion buyt also as the actual rework to see how it could shine. But being able to kept the accurate feelings for the same role is IMO better that changing the feels for only the good sake of balance.

 

MOREOVER and maybe out of topic. But why not having radars and hydro modules being destroyable on CA/CL ? or as engine, they can at least being disable ?

Liek that i will again increase interaction betaween team mate where DD would need others to disable radars that can or cannot get repared by repair system.

It will IRCC decrease the DD oppression if it still have one.

 

Like that DD attacks will be more confortable because of the ability to disable radar or even hydro. (hydro will be a compartment inside the citadel or casemate as engine, ammo rack stuffs...)

And also be less oppresive because of AA variable which make them take more damage and see less further. unless it is recon that only ping on minimal and with a delay.

 

Finaly, main question would be like does each sugestion will be interesting enough for Wg to take a look at that ?

or it is a hopeless topic that wont be even read by anyone and that WG will ignore ?

 

 

THANKS A LOT FOR READING this BIG BLOC.

 

I cant thank you a lot. Any critizise is welcome because this was a big though for me. I love the game because of the game but also of how WG devs mainly succes a making you feel each boat to !

AS i repeat my self, all that suggestion might took off my credibility, or contradict each argument each other. I am not sur about that. But be sur to correct me !.

 

PS sry for a not gramaticaly accurate english, i am not a native english writer :/

[Yosha_AtaIante]

That's so much effort full of innocence i can't bring myself to tell you that there is a CV discussion thread if you follow this link ☆♡CV Discussion♡☆

 

[CptMinia]

2 minutes ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

That's so much effort full of innocence i can't bring myself to tell you that there is a CV discussion thread if you follow this link ☆♡CV Discussion♡☆

 

Considering the length and personality of his post and also the suggestion I'm interested in from below, I won't be moving or locking this thread. However I would encourage the OP, @Darkbogden to keep an eye on the CVs discussion thread.

 

Quote

MOREOVER and maybe out of topic. But why not having radars and hydro modules being destroyable on CA/CL ? or as engine, they can at least being disable ?

Liek that i will again increase interaction betaween team mate where DD would need others to disable radars that can or cannot get repared by repair system.

It will IRCC decrease the DD oppression if it still have one.

 

Like that DD attacks will be more confortable because of the ability to disable radar or even hydro. (hydro will be a compartment inside the citadel or casemate as engine, ammo rack stuffs...)

And also be less oppresive because of AA variable which make them take more damage and see less further. unless it is recon that only ping on minimal and with a delay.

 

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Vor 11 Minuten, CptMinia sagte:

Considering the length and personality of his post and also the suggestion I'm interested in from below, I won't be moving or locking this thread. However I would encourage the OP, @Darkbogden to keep an eye on the CVs discussion thread.

Yes he put alot of effort into this and it's not just pure hate or a rant. I will leave this to others to discuss too. He repeats some suggestions that were already made but has alot of new stuff and i don't want to tear it apart because of his effort. If more of the anti CV group would put half of that effort in their posts it would be easier to engage in discussions with them.

 

 

[anonym_WQDIB9XrzbSp]

43 minutes ago, Darkbogden said:

MOREOVER and maybe out of topic. But why not having radars and hydro modules being destroyable on CA/CL ? or as engine, they can at least being disable ?

Liek that i will again increase interaction betaween team mate where DD would need others to disable radars that can or cannot get repared by repair system.

It will IRCC decrease the DD oppression if it still have one.

 

Like that DD attacks will be more confortable because of the ability to disable radar or even hydro. (hydro will be a compartment inside the citadel or casemate as engine, ammo rack stuffs...)

And also be less oppresive because of AA variable which make them take more damage and see less further. unless it is recon that only ping on minimal and with a delay.

This is an excellent idea. Radar has been thrown on everything of late, as has hydro. In the cacophony of resistance to change of late the ever diminishing role and gameplay of the DD in particular has been forgotten.

 

Quality of life for DD's in this respect and a more destructible environment beyond icebergs but extending to ALL ship modules is to be welcomed. 

 

Spotter planes for example could be something affected by communications being knocked out. Everything should have a counter.

 

Great idea @Darkbogden

[AirSupremacy]

A dedicated smoke squadron would also be a great addition,

to support the own team with smoke drops.

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Vor 1 Minute, AirSupremacy sagte:

A dedicated smoke squadron would also be a great addition,

to support the own team with smoke drops.

It's probably to come with the support CVs that are going to be introduced! Looking foward to it too!

[Darkbogden]

Thank you for the answers !

 

I know that my suggestions was maybe innocent from was the things said.

I didnt put suggestion in the main one because it is hard to follow up, and i though thats was better to have a dedicated topic with only ideas without hates because i am sur we can merge anti and not anti CV team :D

[CptMinia]

4 minutes ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

Yes he put alot of effort into this and it's not just pure hate or a rant. I will leave this to others to discuss too. He repeats some suggestions that were already made but has alot of new stuff and i don't want to tear it apart because of his effort. If more of the anti CV group would put half of that effort in their posts it would be easier to engage in discussions with them.

If that were true moderation would be a lot easier as well... woops I've said too much! /vanish

 

5 minutes ago, WynnZeroOne said:

This is an excellent idea. Radar has been thrown on everything of late, as has hydro. In the cacophony of resistance to change of late the ever diminishing role and gameplay of the DD in particular has been forgotten.

 

Quality of life for DD's in this respect and a more destructible environment beyond icebergs but extending to ALL ship modules is to be welcomed. 

 

Spotter planes for example could be something affected by communications being knocked out. Everything should have a counter.

 

Great idea @Darkbogden

And interesting change for sure, but this needs thorough testing before I can really say anything about it.

[anonym_WQDIB9XrzbSp]

1 minute ago, CptMinia said:

If that were true moderation would be a lot easier as well... woops I've said too much! /vanish

 

And interesting change for sure, but this needs thorough testing before I can really say anything about it.

That, and getting into  'thorough testing' in the aftermath of GC, GZ and CV's is likely to attract biblical levels of wailing, angst, and wanton gnashing of teeth.

[CptMinia]

1 minute ago, WynnZeroOne said:

That, and getting into  'thorough testing' in the aftermath of GC, GZ and CV's is likely to attract biblical levels of wailing, angst, and wanton gnashing of teeth.

At this point, I'm willing to make major changes to bring back a higher skill-ceiling in the game. If we could disable radar or hydro in some way, it would open up the chance to turn situations a lot. 

[thiextar]

14 minutes ago, WynnZeroOne said:

This is an excellent idea. Radar has been thrown on everything of late, as has hydro. In the cacophony of resistance to change of late the ever diminishing role and gameplay of the DD in particular has been forgotten.

 

Quality of life for DD's in this respect and a more destructible environment beyond icebergs but extending to ALL ship modules is to be welcomed. 

 

Spotter planes for example could be something affected by communications being knocked out. Everything should have a counter.

 

Great idea @Darkbogden

Could be a good change, but only if there was some visual feedback, like an icon above the ship that the radar is broken, because otherwise a destroyer cant utilize it anyways without just risking it and praying to rngesus.

 

12 minutes ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

It's probably to come with the support CVs that are going to be introduced! Looking foward to it too!

As much as i would love carriers getting a more supportive role, i have actually not seen wargaming say anything about such carriers. Would you care to link me your source?

[anonym_WQDIB9XrzbSp]

6 minutes ago, CptMinia said:

At this point, I'm willing to make major changes to bring back a higher skill-ceiling in the game. If we could disable radar or hydro in some way, it would open up the chance to turn situations a lot. 

Yup, if there's then an implementation of CV spotting only adding a concealment bloom to ships, the DD's can at least look to contest at all stages of the game, but still have to make use of landmasses, support and smoke situationally.

1 minute ago, thiextar said:

Could be a good change, but only if there was some visual feedback, like an icon above the ship that the radar is broken, because otherwise a destroyer cant utilize it anyways without just risking it and praying to rngesus.

 

As much as i would love carriers getting a more supportive role, i have actually not seen wargaming say anything about such carriers. Would you care to link me your source?

Visual feedback the key. I always point out in chat when I've induced flooding or a fire has been DCM'd to make my team aware of the DOT opportunity, there's sadly no easier way than typing and even then only the odd ship acknowledges or takes advantage, but visual indications of something like radar or hydro being knocked out would improve tactical options and awareness without have to stop and type. 

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Vor 6 Minuten, thiextar sagte:

As much as i would love carriers getting a more supportive role, i have actually not seen wargaming say anything about such carriers. Would you care to link me your source? 

I'm sorry i won't be able to find the link quickly but i can assure you that it's going to come.

[El2aZeR]

1 hour ago, Darkbogden said:

The view was to much zoomed and was in a feeling of dive. Much like watching the ground.

 

Sorry, but I stopped reading right there.

Because like in all halfway modern RTS games you could zoom out to sufficient levels by using the mouse wheel.

[CptBarney]

I would like to see carriers get the ability to drop smoke, hydro, maybe even heals but sacrifces dpm for this, (maybe more secondaries to defend it self better sort of).

 

obviously with the new carriers (make yorkie op pls).

[HussarKaz]

Perfect rework is current rework. Have a nice day!

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Vor 42 Minuten, CptBarney sagte:

I would like to see carriers get the ability to drop smoke, hydro, maybe even heals but sacrifces dpm for this, (maybe more secondaries to defend it self better sort of).

 

obviously with the new carriers (make yorkie op pls).

I just want my ability to make this a teamgame and give meaningful support to my team. Killing surface ships is getting boring.

Support CVs please arrive quickly

[CptBarney]

4 minutes ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

I just want my ability to make this a teamgame and give meaningful support to my team. Killing surface ships is getting boring.

Support CVs please arrive quickly

True, the lack of support ships in a teambased game is highly annoying,. Yes they would be harder to play and people playing them would be relyed on heavily. but it would be nice to have more support roles, like team buffs etc.

[Darkbogden]

1 hour ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Sorry, but I stopped reading right there.

Because like in all halfway modern RTS games you could zoom out to sufficient levels by using the mouse wheel.

When a talks about that view, i was about being able to have a view even larger, between the max given buy RTS view and Minimap overall view.

When i played in the RTS ver. , Il was alwmost most of the time in max dezoomed point of view, because having the possibility to zoom is corect, but not w<hen u cant manual drop, because or T4/5. Only RTS view became fully operational at T6, and sadly i only played few games with the T6S one iirc.

@El2aZeR

[Darkbogden]

1 hour ago, HussarKaz said:

Perfect rework is current rework. Have a nice day!

I am sorry, but in my opinion, i dont think that this CV rework is the perfect one. Not the worst either*

 

I am not asking WG to go back to RTS but to think about the possibilites that can merge both system in on maybe better.

 

Ofc having to change a heavy rework must be fast in a game life because if yopu keep it not change and just bandage it, it wont be retreivable. Lot of time and works were spent on this rework to completly change the overal view of the CV system. Its is hard to think thats something is wrong in it i guess. From dev as from editors.

 

But hopefully they wont block themselves into a way where they wont go on a dead-end.

 

More over, This cant be the perfect CV. I will repeat myself, but the feelings in this new gameplay isnt enough accurate to make it immersive.

It for sure immerse the player in the action of plane drop and attacks. But wont immerse the player as a CV captain.

Again, about feelings, its the same with DD's, for now on, they make you feel weak and maneaverable, and need to make suprise attack.

Constant plane spot just destroy the grealty build DD feels.

If DD cant be played as they where design, i am sorry but in that way CV dont work ad a good balance on it.

 

Finally, this was of course an example, and i am sur that CV dont poison DD's gameplay that hard. But going on a anther way for the rework would be for sur better for all DD...

@HussarKaz

[Darkbogden]

The supposed upcoming CV would be really cool and even more interesting than actual CV. But in the a actual status. I dont think that it would be ideal to realize if WG cant balance CV.

[The_Gathering]

I've got nothing. I don't see how you can properly balance carrier bombers vs surface ships. Carriers were so superior to battleships, battle cruisers and heavy cruisers that they made those ship classes obsolete in real life.

 

It doesn't help that WG doesn't seem focused on minimizing the asymmetrical gap between the ship classes either; game balance has been completely screwed over. But hey, at least we can buy new premium ships every month. There is no resource that WG won't throw at introducing new ships into the game, that people can then buy with their credit cards. 

[anonym_WQDIB9XrzbSp]

56 minutes ago, thoso1973 said:

I've got nothing. I don't see how you can properly balance carrier bombers vs surface ships. Carriers were so superior to battleships, battle cruisers and heavy cruisers that they made those ship classes obsolete in real life.

 

It doesn't help that WG doesn't seem focused on minimizing the asymmetrical gap between the ship classes either; game balance has been completely screwed over. But hey, at least we can buy new premium ships every month. There is no resource that WG won't throw at introducing new ships into the game, that people can then buy with their credit cards. 

That, and powercreep is beyond a joke.

 

It's about time they started at T4-5 and address balancing tier by tier, but just imagine the hysterics.

[MrWastee]

simple: bring back and just balance out (rip finally) rts cv's. voila. oh, and have a nice day ofc...