developing advice Proposal about malicious use of "Map Border Humping"

[CapitanoAraym]

There are a lot of more pressing issues (a.k.a. CV still under balancement) probably in the eyes of the comunity, but, as long time player, I always noticed, in some situation, some malicious use of the mechanics related to the map border, to help to avoid being hit by enemies.

The mechanics was already someway addressed in the past (by cutting partially the power of the engine of anyone hitting the map border, to make him more "stationary" and so easy to be hit) but, in some situations and with some ships it is still being exploited, sometime.
I have not so a big issue (the "learn to aim" help) but surely, sometimes, still I saw some abuse of it, mostly by long range cruisers (yeah... Henry IV users, mostly, under speed boost) or destroyers that have a possibility to have still some reasonable speed to "sail" or angle even under the actual "malus" of low powered engine.

In a discussion on a CC's discord about this problem, I had an idea that I'd like to propose here at the attention of WG's Developers:

To make it alike the "drowning" in World of Tanks. 10 sec timer (to allow anyone to maneuver away, if it's just an error) then if not, give you damage like being on flood or fire for each second you keep hitting the border, but NOT allowing any repair for it (pure 100% damage)

An immediate death like drowning in WoT it is probably extreme, but for those abusing of the border, having a good chunk of HP removed per second after the warning will be a deterrent against abusing.

 

It should be almost easy to develop: just a "timer", that pops when hitting the border, linked to damage code very alike flooding or being on fire (a balancing phase should tell to WG which is better to use, or the right amount of damage to apply).
Alike staying "under water", if its a casual error it should not affect too much anyone (those that take a little bit of damage after the initial "grace period" should just learn how to sail) but if used to exploit it, should give you a good HP penalty.

EDIT:

as pointed in some of the following discussion, probably this idea must be paired with a rework of the "engine power loss". Maybe removing the engine power loss, adding the damage, and then (to avoid "partial humping" just in the limit of the timer, adjust the timer itself). Some low tier BBs with their low speed, once hitting the border by error, have a lot of difficoult to change course and could be in trouble, if my idea could be added now in pair with the engine loss...
Maybe the damage taken (or the timer period before it) could be based "by class", allowing the bigger ship a bigger time...
... or maybe the damage itself could start lower, in the beginning, and just be higher, after, if no action is taken

That's the idea.
Start the "roasting" of it.

[250swb]

You'd need a custom timer for each ship because it takes an age for some BB's to even start to reverse course even under normal conditions of hard hitting an island never mind squishing into the map border. Combine that with any engine damage and a simple accident becomes life threatening. The other thing to consider is that charging into the enemy to suicide is a tactic to get out of the game early, for which the player would often get official complaints because it's in plain sight. But now hugging the map border away from the battle would do the same thing, players would look at the odds and think 'I'm heading to the border to exit this battle'.

[Miscommunication_dept]

I don’t see the benefit of staying in the border. You are just too easy to hit.

i usually try to bounce straight off it. once you’ve slowed down with a known direction of travel ( along the edge) it is easy to hit you. 

 

I don’t think a trimming needs to change.

[triumphgt6]

2 hours ago, CapitanoAraym said:

There are a lot of more pressing issues (a.k.a. CV still under balancement) probably in the eyes of the comunity, but, as long time player, I always noticed, in some situation, some malicious use of the mechanics related to the map border, to help to avoid being hit by enemies.

The mechanics was already someway addressed in the past (by cutting partially the power of the engine of anyone hitting the map border, to make him more "stationary" and so easy to be hit) but, in some situations and with some ships it is still being exploited, sometime.
I have not so a big issue (the "learn to aim" help) but surely, sometimes, still I saw some abuse of it, mostly by long range cruisers (yeah... Henry IV users, mostly, under speed boost) or destroyers that have a possibility to have still some reasonable speed to "sail" or angle even under the actual "malus" of low powered engine.

In a discussion on a CC's discord about this problem, I had an idea that I'd like to propose here at the attention of WG's Developers:

To make it alike the "drowning" in World of Tanks. 10 sec timer (to allow anyone to maneuver away, if it's just an error) then if not, give you damage like being on flood or fire for each second you keep hitting the border, but NOT allowing any repair for it (pure 100% damage)

An immediate death like drowning in WoT it is probably extreme, but for those abusing of the border, having a good chunk of HP removed per second after the warning will be a deterrent against abusing.

 

It should be almost easy to develop: just a "timer", that pops when hitting the border, linked to damage code very alike flooding or being on fire (a balancing phase should tell to WG which is better to use, or the right amount of damage to apply).
Alike staying "under water", if its a casual error it should not affect too much anyone (those that take a little bit of damage after the initial "grace period" should just learn how to sail) but if used to exploit it, should give you a good HP penalty.

That's the idea.
Start the "roasting" of it.

I think this is a good idea - I postulated just having minefields around the edge of maps so random damage which would encourage avoiding the edges but not completely punish mistakes - a bit of RNG in the minefield as well.

[principat121]

I encounter a border humping player maybe every 10th game.

So, no need to develop a new mechanic for such a rare occurrence.

 

Can it be annoying? Hell, yes. But again, it is such a rare thing, that there is no need to something against it.

 

Do you want to know was is annoying in almost every game? Spamming F-commands and map squares. Will WG do something against that? No! So, I have doubts that border humping will ever be a problem for WG.

[cracktrackflak]

The problem with the borders arises because of the way the game is designed - the maps are far too small and cluttered (with islands) for the handling characteristics of many of the ships. On top of this the engagement ranges are very short and there exists the contrived mechanic where a ship is most vulnerable on its broadside, so turning has to be avoided whilst in contact with the enemy. The effect of all this is that many most ships are going to end up kiting into the border in the course of perfectly normal and innocent gameplay.

 

The way ships are currently punished for remaining at the border is also a bit dubious and even counter-productive - e.g. try hitting the border in a very slow ship (like a Colorado) and then see what happens when you lose 75% of engine power. The ship remains stuck to the border like velcro, even though the player is trying his/her best to extricate themselves! Possibly this ought to be changed to a 75% reduction in firepower, so that the ship retains engine power to get away from the border but does not have the means to exploit the incident.

 

 

 

 

[invicta2012]

Sailing into the border and using it as a way of losing speed, rapidly changing direction or evading incoming fire is a legitimate tactic. Everyone is aware of it, the effect is predictable, counter plays are available. 

 

(and No, I don't do it, because I mostly play DDs and it's not good tactics to be on the border in a DD). 

[veslingr]

34 minutes ago, gopher31 said:

I don’t see the benefit of staying in the border. You are just too easy to hit.

i usually try to bounce straight off it. once you’ve slowed down with a known direction of travel ( along the edge) it is easy to hit you. 

 

I don’t think a trimming needs to change.

Surfing on border is really unpredictable and good way to defend yourself in bad situation. Anybody with half brain will use this "exploit" to mitigate alot of dmg

[CapitanoAraym]

@250swb

Mine is just a general idea (taken by the 10sec drowning" from WoT) mixed by the damage that is taken staying outside of the "combat zone" in a lot of battle-royale shooters. Surely, after a good brainstorm by developers about the iterations, it could need adjustment (how much time put on the timer, the amount of damage taken after it).

 

@gopher31; @principat121

... and if by your experience it's rare, and surely it could be in random, I could tell you that I saw a good amount of "skilled players" use it with good proficiency in high level clan battles, with some kind of ships that can abuse of range and speed (Yes... I'm thinking about you, Henry IV's players) and some time by DDs too. Not as gamebreaking mechanics to farm damage, but mostly to confuse someone just that couple of salvos needed to adjust the aim, and do not die .
In CB it could make the difference between a win and a loss... in such a manner that I could tell you, after a couple of time I saw it, I found myself, in some situations (not common, but it happens) to use too (being commonly a DD or a flanker cruiser, so a lot of time already playing on "the sides"). I'm generally speaking a "bad person": in the competitive moment, I resort to any trick. Even not the fairest. Then later I can discuss about the "not fair" usage and propose an "equal footing" for anyone.
But I can tell you: it works. Definitely. Not every time, but against "average" shooter, it works...

 

Probably not added in the opening post, the balancing phase should be mixed by a change of the engine power reduction.
That, for me, is a "bad fix".
My idea is more in line the common "rule" in a lot of shooting games.

[HaachamaShipping]

57 minutes ago, 250swb said:

You'd need a custom timer for each ship because it takes an age for some BB's to even start to reverse course even under normal conditions of hard hitting an island never mind squishing into the map border. Combine that with any engine damage and a simple accident becomes life threatening. The other thing to consider is that charging into the enemy to suicide is a tactic to get out of the game early, for which the player would often get official complaints because it's in plain sight. But now hugging the map border away from the battle would do the same thing, players would look at the odds and think 'I'm heading to the border to exit this battle'.

Engine damage? It suffices that you lose most of your engine power. If you steam bow on into the map border, have fun getting away from there as it takes eternities to get enough engine power to reverse the momentum and get away again.

 

As to OP. If you intentionally run into the map border with a ship that relies on dodging, you are basically counting on the enemy to be too incompetent to figure out how to properly aim. For the most part, people run into map borders due to running out of map space. The sole instance where the map border really is fun is with planes, because you basically instantly turn around and bounce off and flak has a bit of a hard time accounting for that.

[AndyTheCupid]

Just make the border a mine field like in the Dunkirk operation.

[ColonelPete]

It is not a problem. If it is a problem for you, you are doing it wrong...

 

• They are easy to hit
• They cannot get away
• They are out of position
• If the enemy is not losing, why are you fighting an enemy at the map border in the first place?

[Mr_Snoww]

14 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

It is not a problem. If it is a problem for you, you are doing it wrong...

 

• They are easy to hit
• They cannot get away
• They are out of position
• If the enemy is not losing, why are you fighting an enemy at the map border in the first place?

The movements on the border are unpredictable and can be exploited to dodge a lot of shots that you normally wouldn't if you know how to use the border to exploit it. This can be exploited if your team are winning on points and the enemy can't get to a cap in time to they have to kill you. It is sometimes very annoying in clan battles and needs addressing. Taking damage after a certain amount of time on the border would be a good start. And maybe in clan battles (not in randoms obviously) the team who's player is on the border points stop generating for untill they get off the border 

[ColonelPete]

1 minute ago, Mr_Snoww said:

The movements on the border are unpredictable and can be exploited to dodge a lot of shots that you normally wouldn't if you know how to use the border to exploit it. This can be exploited if your team are winning on points and the enemy can't get to a cap in time to they have to kill you. It is sometimes very annoying in clan battles and needs addressing. Taking damage after a certain amount of time on the border would be a good start. And maybe in clan battles (not in randoms obviously) the team who's player is on the border points stop generating for untill they get off the border 

You see the angle and can guess the speed of movement that way.

If one team is winning on points and the other not, then one team did something right before and the other not. The map border is not the problem then.

[Mr_Snoww]

4 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

You see the angle and can guess the speed of movement that way.

If one team is winning on points and the other not, then one team did something right before and the other not. The map border is not the problem then.

You are missing the point here. That was an example. The point is that the border provides more benefits than it should and that needs fixing. I do wish you would stop being so obtuse. 

[Karasu_Browarszky]

I'm not sure how good an exploit it is, though 'sliding' along the map border can momentarily throw off the enemy's aim. The map border is a problem to me often, especially with the less maneuvarable ships. Often what happens is I hit the border bow on and after that, good luck trying to get out because after hitting engines on the reverse I lose so much power because of the border that backing out of it takes ages making me a sitting duck for minutes, literally.

 

As said above by cracktrackflak, the maps are too small for the higher tiers, cluttered with islands as well. In Wot, AFAIK, there is no penalty for hitting the map border other than stopping, also don't see how you could exploit it.

[ColonelPete]

35 minutes ago, Mr_Snoww said:

You are missing the point here. That was an example. The point is that the border provides more benefits than it should and that needs fixing. I do wish you would stop being so obtuse. 

When your gameplay depends on the mapborder, you either did something wrong before or the enemy did something wrong before. The mapborder is the result of mistakes being made and not really the problem.

 

And if you cannot deal with a slow target, that cannot get away, that seems like a personal problem.

 

 

[Mr_Snoww]

1 hour ago, ColonelPete said:

When your gameplay depends on the mapborder, you either did something wrong before or the enemy did something wrong before. The mapborder is the result of mistakes being made and not really the problem.

 

And if you cannot deal with a slow target, that cannot get away, that seems like a personal problem.

 

 

Yes you must be such a better player than me haha. You do make me laugh mate. 

[Ubertron_X]

1 hour ago, ColonelPete said:

When your gameplay depends on the mapborder, you either did something wrong before or the enemy did something wrong before.

If we apply that line of reasoning to all of WoWs, we could question a lot of more or less beneficial terrain features. For example: When your gameplay depends on islands, you either did something wrong before or the enemy did something wrong before. So tell me, what did an american CL do wrong on the Oceans map? Simply chose the wrong ship before the battle has even begun?

 

Don't get me wrong, I also don't think border humping is much of an issue, however one has to admit that it can still be abused in an unsportsmanlike manner no matter what kind of mistakes or wrong plays have been made so far.

[ColonelPete]

29 minutes ago, Mr_Snoww said:

Yes you must be such a better player than me haha. You do make me laugh mate. 

Being a sharpshooter does not mean you are good at tactics....

 

18 minutes ago, Ubertron_X said:

If we apply that line of reasoning to all of WoWs, we could question a lot of more or less beneficial terrain features. For example: When your gameplay depends on islands, you either did something wrong before or the enemy did something wrong before. So tell me, what did an american CL do wrong on the Oceans map? Simply chose the wrong ship before the battle has even begun?

 

Don't get me wrong, I also don't think border humping is much of an issue, however one has to admit that it can still be abused in an unsportsmanlike manner no matter what kind of mistakes or wrong plays have been made so far.

Map borders are not islands...

[Hopeless_Guppy]

The border mechanic really annoys me, it should be exactly the same as hitting an island, where you can reverse out immediately,I can see no purpose as to why this is not the case.

[Hopeless_Guppy]

That said, when it comes to CV's, one clan member who is the CV go to guy insists you should reverse to the border and not move, until later on in the game when you have a better idea how the game is going to go, ie: which flank is being pushed or which one is being lost.

 

As tactics go I think it seems valid, one vid on the tube even had a guy sailing around in circles, the more experiences hardy CV players might choose to follow the fleet or at least a portion of it but as my experience shows, that can be a very risky move.

[anonym_WQDIB9XrzbSp]

5 hours ago, invicta2012 said:

Sailing into the border and using it as a way of losing speed, rapidly changing direction or evading incoming fire is a legitimate tactic. Everyone is aware of it, the effect is predictable, counter plays are available. 

 

(and No, I don't do it, because I mostly play DDs and it's not good tactics to be on the border in a DD). 

Or any other ship for that matter. Frankly there should be increasing loss of visibility closer to the border such that ships sat out there are less effective at defending themselves, be it less effective AA or an inability to see as far.

[anonym_WQDIB9XrzbSp]

12 minutes ago, NoobySkooby said:

That said, when it comes to CV's, one clan member who is the CV go to guy insists you should reverse to the border and not move, until later on in the game when you have a better idea how the game is going to go, ie: which flank is being pushed or which one is being lost.

 

As tactics go I think it seems valid, one vid on the tube even had a guy sailing around in circles, the more experiences hardy CV players might choose to follow the fleet or at least a portion of it but as my experience shows, that can be a very risky move.

In a 2 CV game the team with CV's furthest back is oft least effective. Turnaround time is way too long and BB's find themselves lured to you when fleeing in panic. I try to keep moving where possible and at certain points in game push up to an island in order to rapidly spawn late game attacks.

 

I had a few yesterday where my fellow CV got planes into combat around once every 2 mins on account of sailing to the corner and the flank he was on pushing round. I was with the fleet island hopping, their CV's ran riot while I was our only effective CV. We lost out on way too much spotting, zoning and firepower with him/her hiding in the corner.

[cracktrackflak]

Heres an idea: how about making the borders act like "portals"?

 

- If you collide with a border, you go through a portal and re-emerge on the diametric opposite side of the map. Could liven up tactics a bit by materialising in the rear of the enemy fleet (probably next to their CV!).

 

- alternatively, you go through the border portal, leave that game, but re-appear as a random reinforcement in someone else's game? Even more fun!