Smaller naval vessels (e.g. frigates and corvettes)

[Killtech]

Hi, i an new to the game and just recently got into the beta. so far the game is way more fun than i have imagined.

 

One of the things i've noticed that there weren't any smaller naval units then destroyers and even the very first starting ships are already quite large cruisers. my expectation was that the lower tiers would start with something like corvettes and frigates. Yet i have to admit that they way it is it works pretty well actually.

 

However i was wondering if there was any room left for those smaller vessels in the future? Obviously turning the whole tech tree upside down isn't a possibility so the only way they could make an appearance would be to make them a class of their own i guess. then again, there is no way how to balance a single frigate against a battleship (if they were to be on the same tier). after all those kind of ships were really just weaker, slower and more specialized destroyers.

 

yet, frigates are comparatively very cheap units so what they cannot make up in class they can make up in mass - thus they could potentially not come as single ships but rather as divisions of multiple vessels (3-5?) that a single player commands. this would actually introduce a new kind of gameplay that currently doesn't exist but would be somewhat similar to carriers i guess. could that be interesting and viable?

 

still as there are no submarines in game the main purpose they were build for is missing. however they could have a niche as support AA escorts for other ships and to fend off destroyers in limited capacity. they would also add more targets to shoot at for other other team.

 

but perhaps an escort ship line could be introduced best together with submarines at the same time. after all those belong together in a way. if frigates would be available in game they wouldn't leave much room for submarines to become too powerful (or annoying) because the presence of escort ships would not allow subs to come close enough to sink the juicy battleships as submerged they are slow and easy pray for frigates. and if the stay further away they are just like very slow destroyers.

 

well, that's just some thoughts and brainstorming. is it remotely realistic? would anyone (apart from me) play them? or are there perhaps other ideas for these kind of ships for the future?

 

[We_Just_Dinged_Em]

Frigates and corvettes weren't meant for fleet combat, they were ASW and escort vessels, built to mercantile standards in (mostly) civilian shipyards, personally I don't see the point of introducing them, they would be useless as this game simulates fleet combat.

 

However, if they ever introduced subs, then these vessels would have a fantastic role (as they did in Navyfield) as you've already said......Sadly, WG has ruled out subs in this game, which is a real shame.

[Kevbar]

Interesting ideas but I really don't think its feasible. WG have already stipulated that submarines will never be in WoWS. As for commanding 2 or 3 frigate as a 1 player controlled squadron, personally I would be happy to see them bobbing around harassing destroyers or even spotting big targets for BB's, I just don't think WG will sadly.

 

[chaplainDMK]

Frigates/destroyer escorts and corvettes were (as you pointed out) mainly escort vessels, they didn't have a proper fleet function. This mainly results in them being rather slow, with many being capable of only about 20 knots, and even the later war fleet anti-air designs usually doing only about 24-25 knots. 

 

So this thing would have less HP than a destroyer, far less guns than a destroyer, absolutely no armor, usually they didn't even carry torpedos and would also be far slower than many battleships. Basically a useless class. 

[Conte_Vincero]

The problem with frigates is that they would fill the same role as destroyers, which would make one or the other pointless. 

[CloakingDonkey]

because of the way the game works, I just don't really think anything smaller than a destroyer would work. I mean playing a destroyer at higher tiers is already hard work.. imagine you only had 1 or 2k hp

 

I'm also very glad we won't see submarines. Seriously.. when was the last time you checked on all the whining we get about torpedoes now.. imagine if they come out of nowhere from ships you can't see... there'd be riots.

[Killtech]

WG have already stipulated that submarines will never be in WoWS.

well, experience tells that "never" comes a lot more often then one would assume. as time goes on ideas, people and everything changes. game business is a rapidly changing world so a "never" means that in the next 1-3 years something won't happen. but after that who knows?

 

Frigates/destroyer escorts and corvettes were (as you pointed out) mainly escort vessels, they didn't have a proper fleet function. This mainly results in them being rather slow, with many being capable of only about 20 knots, and even the later war fleet anti-air designs usually doing only about 24-25 knots. 

 

So this thing would have less HP than a destroyer, far less guns than a destroyer, absolutely no armor, usually they didn't even carry torpedos and would also be far slower than many battleships. Basically a useless class. 

true, that's why the only way would be if they came in packs. 3-5 frigates could overpower a single destroyer. however as you point out correctly escort ships were rather slow. so their attack potential would be marginal. however they could be a great asset as defenders for bigger ships giving destroyers and carrier aircraft a hard time flanking a distracted fleet.

 

other PvP games have shown that pure support classes are viable in those games. so these smaller ships could try to be just that. 

 

 

The problem with frigates is that they would fill the same role as destroyers, which would make one or the other pointless. 

no, not really. they aren't about torpedoes. they are escorts which is something entirely different then what i see destroyers do in the game. frigates would be a more or less pure support class and not a high risk high reward attacker. also if they came in packs their gameplay would be nothing like any other ship. 

 

 

[CloakingDonkey]

 

"true, that's why the only way would be if they came in packs. 3-5 frigates could overpower a single destroyer. however as you point out correctly escort ships were rather slow. so their attack potential would be marginal. however they could be a great asset as defenders for bigger ships giving destroyers and carrier aircraft a hard time flanking a distracted fleet.

 

other PvP games have shown that pure support classes are viable in those games. so these smaller ships could try to be just that."

 

right now, the only way of getting XP in the game is through 1. dealing damage 2. destroying ships 3. capping and 4. shooting down aircraft.

 

How exactly are even 3-5 frigates with 75-76mm guns gonna do that?  apart from shooting down a few planes maybe. Sure you could use them to block torpedoes for your actually useful bottlesheep friends but is that really all that much fun? Or simply to shoot down some planes which, Battleships and Cruisers manage just fine on their own?

 

Don't get me wrong, I think frigates are freaking cool looking ships, I love to play hordes upon hordes of them in the spaceship boardgames I play... but the way this game is built is way too fast paced and damage oriented to make a teeny tiny scout/escort/submarine snuffle pig worth the effort it would take to code into the game. They'd have to drastically change the game for that to happen and I just can't see them do that.

 

[Zenith]

Whilst there have been some frigate designs with considerable armaments for their size, most would simply be too under-armed to compete effectively; corvettes would be in an even worse predicament. Both had a vital role to play, but engaging in fleet combat was not one of them. 

[JapLance]

Perhaps a Players vs AI mode where the players have to destroy the maximum number of ships in a defended convoy could be something worth doing.

 

A destroyer flotilla (3-4 ships) against an escort composed of corvettes, frigates and/or destroyer escorts with limited time could be challenging.

[Cattro]

Well on this subject, I remember reading a announcement or interview in which the developers said they'd consider some frigates and minesweepers if they had enough firepower alone to be worthy. They would of course be put under a destroyer section (or cruiser, I'm not sure) but they would probably not have separate play styles, only influenced by real life.

[Historynerd]

true, that's why the only way would be if they came in packs. 3-5 frigates could overpower a single destroyer. however as you point out correctly escort ships were rather slow. so their attack potential would be marginal. however they could be a great asset as defenders for bigger ships giving destroyers and carrier aircraft a hard time flanking a distracted fleet.

 

other PvP games have shown that pure support classes are viable in those games. so these smaller ships could try to be just that. 

 

 

I'm sorry, but I don't get what you mean. If escort ships were slow, how would they accompany "bigger ships" (i.e. Battleships and Carriers) that in any case would be faster than them, if we don't consider early Tiers ones?

And which other PvP games do you mean?

[Hedgehog1963]

Submarines of the era were so very slow that they are impractical to include in WoWS.

 

When I heard about this game I hoped that the lower tiers might include MTBs, E-Boats and the like.  That would make for pretty exciting game play.

[Killtech]

 

I'm sorry, but I don't get what you mean. If escort ships were slow, how would they accompany "bigger ships" (i.e. Battleships and Carriers) that in any case would be faster than them, if we don't consider early Tiers ones?

And which other PvP games do you mean?

 

there should be enough escort ships to find that are just fast enough to accompany the bigger ones. but they won't be as fast as destroyers or cruisers. furthermore frigates made quite the career in various navies after the war so for higher tiers those more advanced vessels could be used. if available in divisions of multiple ships those should have sufficient firepower to fight against lone destroyers and aircraft of their tier and be just quick enough to escort any bigger ships. furthermore those advanced frigates also introduce a wide range of new sensors which might also have a role to play - perhaps allowing for something like the damage assist for scout tanks in WoT. 

 

as for PvP games with support classes: the DotA games (e.g. LoL) have many support characters which aren't capable of defeating an opponent one on one (unless in very fortunate circumstance). while these games might be very different from WoWs the paradigm of support class would be the same: winning by making ones allies stronger.

[Historynerd]

 

there should be enough escort ships to find that are just fast enough to accompany the bigger ones. but they won't be as fast as destroyers or cruisers. furthermore frigates made quite the career in various navies after the war so for higher tiers those more advanced vessels could be used.

 

Actually, it seems that amongst frigates and corvettes only the German Flottenbegleiter could reach a maximum speed that was over 20 knots; some destroyer escort classes could reach 26 knots, but since they're specific to the USN there are no similar ships for other navies, which could complicate things.

[mr3awsome]

 

Actually, it seems that amongst frigates and corvettes only the German Flottenbegleiter could reach a maximum speed that was over 20 knots; some destroyer escort classes could reach 26 knots, but since they're specific to the USN there are no similar ships for other navies, which could complicate things.

 

There are Hunt class for the RN and the Matsu class for the IJN

[Historynerd]

 

There are Hunt class for the RN and the Matsu class for the IJN

 

You're right.

But for navies other than the USN, the IJN and the RN to my knowledge there isn't anything else...

[anonym_fNru3sexYMEU]

The game is centred around the fleet concept, which means being able to keep up with battleships and carriers, so 18-35kt depending on tier. At tier 3 the premium Aurora (one of my favourite "^{I have a hangover need to derp}" sunday morning ships) tops out at 18kts. 

 

For mid to higher tiers that rules out many beautiful and fascinating ships as playable, sadly for me as I'm a personal fan of the flower class corvettes and some converted tug boats (). On the bright side, no reason such vessels might not make the game as decorative elements, or even as ai bots to enhance the PVE aspect of game.

 

There are Hunt class for the RN and the Matsu class for the IJN

 

Awesome rightly points out a couple of exceptions to the rule too.

 

Type 3 Hunts look almost doable and look well armed, which would offset relatively modest top speed.

Displacement:	1,050 long tons (1,070 t) standard 1,435 long tons (1,458 t) full load
Length:	85.3 m (279 ft 10 in) o/a
Beam:	10.16 m (33 ft 4 in)
Draught:	3.51 m (11 ft 6 in)
Propulsion:	2 Admiralty 3-drum boilers 2 shaft Parsons geared turbines, 19,000 shp (14,000 kW)
Speed:	27 knots (31 mph; 50 km/h) 25.5 kn (29.3 mph; 47.2 km/h) full
Range:	2,350 nmi (4,350 km) at 20 kn (37 km/h)
Complement:	168
Armament:	• 4 × QF 4 in Mark XVI guns on twin mounts Mk. XIX • 4 × QF 2 pdr Mk. VIII on quad mount MK.VII • 2 × 20 mm Oerlikons on single mounts P Mk. III • 2 × 21 in (533 mm) torpedo tubes

[mr3awsome]

Hunt IVs would be my favourite, because its got a heavy gun armament, and torpedoes.

[anonym_fNru3sexYMEU]

Hunt IVs would be my favourite, because its got a heavy gun armament, and torpedoes.

 

isn't it slower?

[Hedgehog1963]

The US Navy called Corvettes Destroyer Escorts.

 

[chaplainDMK]

The US Navy called Corvettes Destroyer Escorts.

 

 

Destroyer Escorts were roughly equivalent to Royal Navy frigates. Corvettes were not used by the US Navy during WW2 iirc. 

[mr3awsome]

 

isn't it slower?

 

One knot. But with 2 more guns, and 1 more torpedo tube.

[JapLance]

 

Destroyer Escorts were roughly equivalent to Royal Navy frigates. Corvettes were not used by the US Navy during WW2 iirc. 

 

Yes, they were:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Flower-class_corvettes

[Historynerd]

 

Yes, they were:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Flower-class_corvettes

 

Weren't they classified as Patrol Gunboats?