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Yare_Yare

Graf Zeppelin Secondaries Question

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Hello i have a Question. Why do the 105mm Secondaries of Graf Zeppelin use the standard caliber/6 formula for armor pen instead of the improved german caliber/4 one? Is this intended or a bug/mistake by devs?
105mm  : 6 = 17.5mm   = 17mm the value displayed/active ingame 
105mm : 4  = 26.5mm = 26mm the value that it should be 

The 150mm secondaries use the improved formula
150mm : 4 = 37.5mm =  37mm the value displayed/active ingame
The complaint seems small but it makes a huge difference because the secondaries cant do damage to some equal tier dds/cruisers like the Mogami (25mm armor) or most DDs( 19mm) .   

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I expect that most of the differences between artillery used in main armament and secondary armament, even of the same type, exists purely for balance reasons.

 

No one is expecting the secondaries on Kii to perform to the same degree as having an Akizuki bolted either side of the ship. You could try to justify it by considering that perhaps secondary battery fire control systems are inferior to those used for main armaments but WoWS is still an arcade game, not any kind of simulator, so the game does not 100% reflect real life.

 

Not all BBs are designed to have equally effective secondary armaments, but realistically its important to consider the quantity, range and penetration of secondaries. Requblique might have a large number of secondaries with good range that are helpful for starting fires, but if caught in a engagement with some like GK at secondary range the GK is going to have a lot more guns causing raw HE damage because the battery can penetrate 32mm of armor which the Republique is covered in without needing IFHE. The Republique by comparison can only achieve 32mm penetration with its 152mm guns with IFHE and even then those wont penetrate the significant amount of >32mm armor that covers GK, however while the raw HE damage is not as effective Republiques secondaries have extremely good fire chance. Also, GKs secondary battery is more resilient than Republiques.

 

As long as secondaries only target the centre of a ship, making hits to the bow/stern less likely and distributing hits between the lightly armored superstructure and more heavily armored casemates/belt regions, the effectiveness of secondaries will always be pretty limited. The ships that have especially good secondary batteries can definitely use them to their advantage in the right circumstances, but they're still only a secondary battery.

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The only german secondaries that benefit from 1/4 penetration are the 150mm and 128mm guns, with the only exception being FDG that also gets 1/4 pen on it's 105mm guns (This would probably be true for GK as well if it had any 105mm secondaries). I think you can assume that only the tier 9 and 10 BBs would get 1/4 pen on the 105mm guns.

 

Following this pattern, GZ either does not get 1/4 pen on her 105s because she is not a BB (Hindenburg for example also does not get 1/4 pen on her 105s) or because she is not tier 9/10.

 

If GZ did get 1/4 pen on her 105s then combined with IFHE I suspect her overall secondary battery would be too strong for a CV. It is already extremely accurate for a secondary battery (they infact have the same accuracy formula as the main guns on Graf Spee) and granting that entire battery the capability to penetrate 32mm armor would be quite strong.

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Honestly i feel like the german secondaries and some special japanese ones are rather underpowered in the current meta. Due to CVs and more and more deck armor being introduced into the game its gotten hard to sneak up to enemy ships to do any damage with them and ships like the Republique, Georgia or Massachussets are more accurate and more damage with their secondaries then the Kurfürst wich is supposed to be secondary king.
On some Japanese ships they are specially weak like the Musashi for example , its 155mm secondaries are supposed to be the same guns as on the Mogami with 15.7km range and be able to fire from the front , thats what its specialty was in real life. It being Tier 9 isnt really any benefit because not only do you end up in T X games anyways, but also it doesnt have a Legendary Module like the Yamato has, making it way weaker even do the Musashi was the actually stronger then yamato in real life in terms of ship to ship combat.  It would already help if they would set the Range of all secondaries to the amount they should have for their caliber.  For example the max range of german 128mm guns should be 12.1 km like on the Z-52  and not 11.6km. 

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5 hours ago, Astolfo_Is_My_Waifu said:

 

Not all BBs are designed to have equally effective secondary armaments, but realistically its important to consider the quantity, range and penetration of secondaries. Requblique might have a large number of secondaries with good range that are helpful for starting fires, but if caught in a engagement with some like GK at secondary range the GK is going to have a lot more guns causing raw HE damage because the battery can penetrate 32mm of armor which the Republique is covered in without needing IFHE. The Republique by comparison can only achieve 32mm penetration with its 152mm guns with IFHE and even then those wont penetrate the significant amount of >32mm armor that covers GK, however while the raw HE damage is not as effective Republiques secondaries have extremely good fire chance. Also, GKs secondary battery is more resilient than Republiques.

Actually the GK secondaries can't pen 32 mm armor without IFHE, since due to how the HE pen mechanics works the pen must be higher than the threshold you want to penetrate. So to penetrate 32 mm you need 32.5 or higher HE pen. Without IFHE the GK can then penetrate most cruisers and BB superstructures. With IFHE anything that is covered in 32 mm will be ripped apart.

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5 hours ago, ollonborre said:

Actually the GK secondaries can't pen 32 mm armor without IFHE, since due to how the HE pen mechanics works the pen must be higher than the threshold you want to penetrate. So to penetrate 32 mm you need 32.5 or higher HE pen. Without IFHE the GK can then penetrate most cruisers and BB superstructures. With IFHE anything that is covered in 32 mm will be ripped apart.

Indeed, I forgot that the 128mm guns can only penetrate 31mm, though GKs 150mm guns can still penetrate 37 before IFHE.

This would still fare better against Repus armor than Repus 20 and 24mm (IFHE: 26/32mm) penetration values would do against GKs armor, which was the comparison I was trying to make.

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The thing is Republique Secondairies even set Fires when they shatter and end up doing more damage with 2 fires set then the raw damage of even IFHE Secondaries of GK, specially when you have to angle and not all secondairies are able to fire anyway. They are also more accurate and you can use them better against dds wich in my opinion should be the main purpose of secondary armament. I feel they should definetly give the 105mm the 1/4 armor pen and it wouldnt be op.

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10 minutes ago, Yare_Yare said:

The thing is Republique Secondairies even set Fires when they shatter and end up doing more damage with 2 fires set then the raw damage of even IFHE Secondaries of GK, specially when you have to angle and not all secondairies are able to fire anyway. They are also more accurate and you can use them better against dds wich in my opinion should be the main purpose of secondary armament. I feel they should definetly give the 105mm the 1/4 armor pen and it wouldnt be op.

All HE shells can set fires when they shatter as long as they hit a compartment that can burn, penetration has no bearing on whether a shell starts a fire. They only depend upon hitting the bow, stern or superstructure with the splash of the HE shell and that that region is not already on fire. And while repus guns do have better fire chance and cause most of their damage from fires, fires can be extinguished and 100% of fire damage can be repaired. GK might not start as many fires but you cant use damage control to prevent raw HE damage and only a % of that damage can be repaired.

 

But GZ is not a tier 10 BB. Her secondaries are already competitive with Bismarcks;

Despite the different gun designations the stats remain the same, the 105mm and 150mm guns on the two ships are identical in every way except range.

  • Bismarck has 12x 150mm guns and 16x 105mm guns.
  • Graf Zeppelin has 16x 150mm guns and 12x 105mm guns.
  • Bismarck has greater base range at 7.5km compared to GZ range of 6.25
  • Graf Zeppelin gets built in Manual Fire Control for Secondaries accuracy bonus (because you cannot manually select targets in GZ).

So even compared to Bismarck it has a better battery (more 150mm guns as the cost of some 105mm guns), the accuracy of Manual Secondaries without needing to spend 4 points on it or even manually select a target, and the only disadvantage is 1.25km of range. I do not think GZ needs more buffs to its secondaries.

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On 5/11/2019 at 8:05 PM, Astolfo_Is_My_Waifu said:

All HE shells can set fires when they shatter as long as they hit a compartment that can burn, penetration has no bearing on whether a shell starts a fire. They only depend upon hitting the bow, stern or superstructure with the splash of the HE shell and that that region is not already on fire. And while repus guns do have better fire chance and cause most of their damage from fires, fires can be extinguished and 100% of fire damage can be repaired. GK might not start as many fires but you cant use damage control to prevent raw HE damage and only a % of that damage can be repaired.

 

But GZ is not a tier 10 BB. Her secondaries are already competitive with Bismarcks;

Despite the different gun designations the stats remain the same, the 105mm and 150mm guns on the two ships are identical in every way except range.

  • Bismarck has 12x 150mm guns and 16x 105mm guns.
  • Graf Zeppelin has 16x 150mm guns and 12x 105mm guns.
  • Bismarck has greater base range at 7.5km compared to GZ range of 6.25
  • Graf Zeppelin gets built in Manual Fire Control for Secondaries accuracy bonus (because you cannot manually select targets in GZ).

So even compared to Bismarck it has a better battery (more 150mm guns as the cost of some 105mm guns), the accuracy of Manual Secondaries without needing to spend 4 points on it or even manually select a target, and the only disadvantage is 1.25km of range. I do not think GZ needs more buffs to its secondaries.


I dont know but in my opinion the main purpose of the secondaries should be to fight off DDs at the SAME TIER or lower then yourself when your main guns are unable to do that effectively and as you mentioned the secondaries on the GZ are different in that they are supposed to be its "gimmick". It doesnt make sense for that gimmick to not work against ships of the same tier as you, that would be like if all ships tier 8 only take 10% of the damage from Tirpitz Torpedos instead the regular amount or if the Kidds AA Consumable doesnt get the full effect against tier 8 planes.

 

Those 150mms can pen more, but they do less then half the DPS of the 105mm's and can NOT defend you properly from a tier 8 dd, also unlike the 150mms the 105mms can shoot at both sides of the ship. So on the GZ your main source of DPS against DDs are the 12x105mm that do roughly 5k dps and not the 150mms that only do 2k DPS. DDs also usually dont care much about fires.

Tier 8 DDs have 19mm armor and are therefore immune to your 105mm secondaries (and therefore take  like 70% less damage) even tho they are on the same tier, im just not sure if this feels right.

Guess i will have to run away from same tier ships for now while trying to fight lower ones.

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6 hours ago, Yare_Yare said:

Those 150mms can pen more, but they do less then half the DPS of the 105mm's and can NOT defend you properly from a tier 8 dd, also unlike the 150mms the 105mms can shoot at both sides of the ship. So on the GZ your main source of DPS against DDs are the 12x105mm that do roughly 5k dps and not the 150mms that only do 2k DPS. DDs also usually dont care much about fires.


Tier 8 DDs have 19mm armor and are therefore immune to your 105mm secondaries (and therefore take  like 70% less damage) even tho they are on the same tier, im just not sure if this feels right.

  • Saipan doesn't have secondarys. 0 dps
  • Enterprise has 2x 127mm guns on each corner that do 300 dps each and can fire 4 of them at a target at most at a range of 4.5km. Up to 1200 dps@4.5km /w 20mm pen with as many guns firing at a target as possible.
  • Lexington has the same layout, but with 8 more 127mm guns arranged in 4x Mk32 turrets around her tower and stack, 2 fore and 2 aft. Up to 3600 dps@4.5km /w 20mm pen
  • Implacable has the same layout with 2x2 113mm guns on each corner that do 340 dps. 2720 dps@4.5km /w 18mm pen
  • Indomitable has the same layout as Implacable exactly.
  • Kaga has a symetrical secondary arrangement with a range of 4.5km, consisting of 5x 203mm guns that do 220 dps each and 8x 127mm guns which do 420 dps (with 2 of them doing only 350 dps because they have different mounts). 4460dps@4.5km /w 20 & 33mm pen
  • Shokaku has the same layout as Kaga, but without the 203mm guns. 3360 dps@4.5km /w 20mm pen
  • GZ has 2x2 150mm guns on each corner doing 226dps each with 37mm of pen, and 6x2 105mm guns arranged around the tower, 3 fore and 3 aft, doing 352 dps each with 17mm pen, all with a range of 6.3km. 1808dps @6.3km /w 37mm pen and 4224dps @6.3km /w 17mm pen.

 

So, GZ has a pretty common arrangement for her 150mm guns. At 37mm pen they are capable of causing damage to practically every ship in the game as long as they arent striking the heavily armored decks of high tier BBs. They might only do 1800 dps but they do so at almost an extra 2km compared to every other t8 CV. They have fairly poor fire starting ability through with only 8% chance and 7.5s reload.

Reinforcing this battery are 12x 105mm guns that can all fire on any target broadside to GZ. While they lack the penetration to damage any hull except for DDs of t7 and lower and cannot even pen the superstructures of t8+ BBs, they also reach out to 6.3km and they have an impressive reload speed of 3.4s with a 5% fire chance (with all 105s firing thats 204 shells per minute with a 5% fire chance even as stock), which is much better than the 5-6s reloads of the various 127mm guns featured on the other CVs at her tier, allowing her to start fires much more regularly.

 

Between her 150mm guns that are capable of causing reasonable raw damage (the potential 1800dps is enough to kill even the highest hp tier 8 DD in less than 10 seconds if they could hit with 100% accuracy, that is not bad) and an excellent battery of fast firing fire starters, all able to reach out to an impressive 6.3km unmodified, GZ has a secondary battery that is generally more capable than any other CV.

But that's not all, because if you include IFHE in this formula then the penetration of the guns increase to 48mm and 22mm, allowing the 105mm guns to shred any DD that dares get within 6km of you if the 150mm guns, the fires and the ability to also strike them with planes is not sufficient. IFHE generally is probably not required

 

And finally, most critically, is the accuracy. While comparing the DPS of the guns to other CVs gives some insight in their relative capabilities that is realistically a waste of time, because CVs will never achieve even 10% of this DPS against any target because secondaries are wildly inaccurate (kagas 203mm guns for example at their maximum range 4.5km have a horrific 295m dispersion). GZ however has a significant dispersion bonus built in to her guns, in combination with the Secondary Battery Modification 2 upgrade and MYS flag this grants her an incredible 91m dispersion at a range of 7.5km, that is better than some ships main guns at this range. You can even choose to take AFT and extend this range out to a massive 9km.

 

With her battery split between high penetration raw HE guns and high rate of fire fire starters all with exceptional accuracy and range and the option to further enhance the accuracy, range and penetration with skills and upgrades, her battery is very good. For a CV it is excellent. If you want to cause 6k dps to any DD then just take IFHE.

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Guys 105mm guns on T2 and T3 german cruisers are having also 1/6 pen. Same goes to DDs T2-T5. It was always like this, not new.

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Just now, MacArthur92 said:

Guys 105mm guns on T2 and T3 german cruisers are having also 1/6 pen. Same goes to DDs T2-T5. It was always like this, not new.

FDG gets 1/4 pen on her 105s, GK probably would get it as well if it had any.

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4 minutes ago, Astolfo_Is_My_Waifu said:

FDG gets 1/4 pen on her 105s, GK probably would get it as well if it had any.

I ckecked this and yes it does. Maybe because T8 and below see more T5-6 BBs coated with 25mm (or even lower) and would wreck them if they would have 1/4 pen on 105mm. Now Tirpitz with IFHE on 105mm has 23mm pen. So cant do damage on lower tier BBs but can pen higher tier DDs. 

GZ maybe should have 1/4 pen considering many 19mm DDs tend to rush it so they should get punished for that.

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