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thiextar

Idea for change to defensive aa

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So currently def aa is extremely lackluster. It doesnt panic drops, and it doesnt protect in any way shape or form against air attack, as the first strike always gets through.

 

So i was thinking, defensive anti air could have the effect of making anti-air target the attack wing, rather than the spare planes. This way defensive anti-air would offer useful protection that carriers have to play around, without actually making anti-air kill more planes.

 

If this change proved to be an effective defense vs carriers, then fighter planes could be reworked to be less brain dead.

 

What do you guys think of something like that?

 

 

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Same effect as current because lost planes will be immediately replaced from flying reserve.

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1 minute ago, Profilus said:

Same effect as current because lost planes will be immediately replaced from flying reserve.

Then make that not be the case when defensive aa is active, make the attack wing unable to refill while being targeted by dfaa.

 

This would provide actual defense for ships equiped with dfaa, rather than just revenge-kills after the attack.

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I think it would be a good idea, especially in the interest of teamplay, that Defensive Fire would increase the target area of the air targets.

That way air attacks would be less accurate and you could help out teammates better.

 

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So you want immunity while defAA is on ?

 

PS: your 1st suggestion shows why ppl should play a class before trying to change it. ;)

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17 minutes ago, Profilus said:

So you want immunity while defAA is on ?

 

PS: your 1st suggestion shows why ppl should play a class before trying to change it. ;)

Destroyers have to play around hydro and radar if they want to get anything done.

 

Battleships have to play around damage and destroyers.

 

Cruisers have to play around battleships and cover.

 

Carriers can just crap on everything.

 

The fact that neither dfaa or fighters will stop you from getting dropped is just stupid. All aa does right now is get some revenge kills, which is completely useless, because no matter how many planes you shoot down, they will just keep coming in a steady stream until they slowly but surely kill you.

 

I have a screenshot/replay of a game where my team shot down exactly 200 planes, and at the end of the game, there were still squads of planes steadily throwing themselves at me like some conveyor-belt. If aa doesnt protect, and carriers are still able to attack after having lost 100 planes each, then what exactly is the point of aa?

2019-04-24_16_26_05-Greenshot.jpg

20190424_160032_PASB598-Black-Massachusetts_25_sea_hope (1).wowsreplay

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25 minutes ago, Profilus said:

So you want immunity while defAA is on ?

You want a CV to be able to strike any target at any time?

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20 minutes ago, thiextar said:

Carriers can just crap on everything.

 

The Tier X and badly balanced Premium ones do, but there's only so much that can be done with those that doesn't involve the nerf bat, which WG will no doubt wieid softly and slowly to allow all those Premium/GC change deniers to regret their choices at great length. 

 

But yes, every surface ship should have the ability to scatter the occasional drop, there should be variable flak patterns to surprise CV players, and I'd add the effect of Manual AA to AFT so that the skill became worth the investment needed : more AA range and damage. It wouldn't affect DFAA, though, as that could get OP. 

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3 minutes ago, invicta2012 said:

The Tier X and badly balanced Premium ones do, but there's only so much that can be done with those that doesn't involve the nerf bat, which WG will no doubt wieid softly and slowly to allow all those Premium/GC change deniers to regret their choices at great length. 

 

But yes, every surface ship should have the ability to scatter the occasional drop, there should be variable flak patterns to surprise CV players, and I'd add the effect of Manual AA to AFT so that the skill became worth the investment needed : more AA range and damage. It wouldn't affect DFAA, though, as that could get OP. 

Flak could apply scatter/temporary panic instead obliterating planes. DFAA doubles effect, effectively denying accurate strikes.

 

Besides, any "suggestions" posted in EU forums are about as effective as posting about loot boxes and then buying them anyway:Smile_smile:

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1 hour ago, thiextar said:

So currently def aa is extremely lackluster. It doesnt panic drops, and it doesnt protect in any way shape or form against air attack, as the first strike always gets through.

 

So i was thinking, defensive anti air could have the effect of making anti-air target the attack wing, rather than the spare planes. This way defensive anti-air would offer useful protection that carriers have to play around, without actually making anti-air kill more planes.

 

If this change proved to be an effective defense vs carriers, then fighter planes could be reworked to be less brain dead.

 

What do you guys think of something like that?

 

 

there are no attack and spare wings

i just like when peoples whine about something they dont have clue how it is working

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15 minutes ago, veslingr said:

there are no attack and spare wings

 i just like when peoples whine about something they dont have clue how it is working

yes there are, when you take off with a squadron that's the attack wing, the planes still on the CV are the spare wings.

 

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5 minutes ago, 159Hunter said:

yes there are, when you take off with a squadron that's the attack wing, the planes still on the CV are the spare wings.

 

you talk about reserves, he about something else

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1 hour ago, thiextar said:

All aa does right now is get some revenge kills, which is completely useless, because no matter how many planes you shoot down, they will just keep coming in a steady stream until they slowly but surely kill you.

Agreed on that.

 

1 hour ago, 159Hunter said:

You want a CV to be able to strike any target at any time?

Absolutely not. If you have all AA perks possible and defAA running i expect to lose every single plane in your AA range(maybe twice a year i can get 1st strike thru). But just pressing 1 button and be immune is as stupid as flying thru current defAA.

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27 minutes ago, veslingr said:

you talk about reserves, he about something else

Im talking about the fact that only a few planes from the squadron actually attack at a time, and those planes are right now immune as they get insta replaced from the planes that arent attacking.

 

The net result is that there is nothing you can do about an incoming strike.

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Just now, thiextar said:

Im talking about the fact that only a few planes from the squadron actually attack at a time, and those planes are right now immune as they get insta replaced from the planes that arent attacking.

 

The net result is that there is nothing you can do about an incoming strike.

and it is fine....you should not be able to kill 9+ planes before single plane reach you

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9 minutes ago, Profilus said:

Absolutely not. If you have all AA perks possible and defAA running i expect to lose every single plane in your AA range(maybe twice a year i can get 1st strike thru). But just pressing 1 button and be immune is as stupid as flying thru current defAA.

*Literally any ship: Presses hydro and is immune to torps*

 

And theres barely a single ship in the game that can achieve what you say with dfaa, that is pure made up lies. Possibly a minotaur with an absolutely max specced aa build, but that is far from a competative build...

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2 minutes ago, veslingr said:

and it is fine....you should not be able to kill 9+ planes before single plane reach you

If you are an aa cruiser with dfaa, you should be able to defend yourself to a drop, you are literally supposed to be the counter to carriers but in reality you cant do crap to counter them.

 

If im in an aa cruiser and pop dfaa, i fully expect the carrier to have to abandon his attack on me and go find another target, then come back when my dfaa is on cooldown. Same as any other ship in the game, you shouldnt be able to just headbutt your counter with zero risk to yourself until it dies.

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1 hour ago, Panocek said:

Besides, any "suggestions" posted in EU forums are about as effective as posting about loot boxes and then buying them anyway

Well, we can only try.

1 hour ago, Panocek said:

Flak could apply scatter/temporary panic instead obliterating planes. DFAA doubles effect, effectively denying accurate strikes.

Well... I would do it like this.

 

BFT - gives a chance to scatter attacking planes and make attacks less accurate (5% chance per Tier every 5 seconds to increase dispersion of attacking rockets, bombs, etc) as well as current boosts. % chance could vary by ship class.

 

AFT - Increases AA DPS and gives sector control/sector efficacy (boosts from Manual AA skill as well as current AFT boosts)

 

New 4 point skill

 

Defensive AA Expertise - Gives the player +1 DFAA consumable and allows for manual selection of Flak patterns (control toggles through 1 - standard, 2 - pattern A, 3 - pattern B, 4 - random).

 

This would benefit DDs most as BFT is a standard DD skill, but the AFT/DAAE changes also allow cruisers a chance to spec into properly dangerous AA roles. Secondary BB builds might also become AA monsters, but that's a fair trade given how much else they give up. 

 

Defensive AA's Flak pattern control would allow defending players to ward off unicum CV players by removing the predictable nature of current flak bursts - although RNGesus might still let them through. Would be pretty awesome as a support skill as, in concert with other players, your flak would be all over the sky. 

 

The idea isn't to ruin CV players' fun altogether, just to make them act with a little more caution and have fewer "Ha, I win" scenarios.

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Just now, thiextar said:

If you are an aa cruiser with dfaa, you should be able to defend yourself to a drop, you are literally supposed to be the counter to carriers but in reality you cant do crap to counter them.

 

If im in an aa cruiser and pop dfaa, i fully expect the carrier to have to abandon his attack on me and go find another target, then come back when my dfaa is on cooldown. Same as any other ship in the game, you shouldnt be able to just headbutt your counter with zero risk to yourself until it dies.

and you defend yourself because (same tier) cv will lose all his planes for 4-5 k dmg...it is very very bad idea for CV....i really do not know why peoples think AAA cruiser shoud be immune to air strike. And CV can not abandon his strike when he enters your aura....he would lose everything runing away.

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4 minutes ago, veslingr said:

and you defend yourself because (same tier) cv will lose all his planes for 4-5 k dmg...it is very very bad idea for CV....i really do not know why peoples think AAA cruiser shoud be immune to air strike. And CV can not abandon his strike when he enters your aura....he would lose everything runing away.

aa cruisers wouldnt have to be immune to aircraft if plane kills actually meant anything. I posted a screenshot above where my team killed 200 aircraft and the enemy carriers where still throwing planes at me till the moment we won....

 

They were throwing planes at me after having lost 100 planes each.... Kinda makes me wonder why i should even bother shooting them down at all.

 

Anyways, this dfaa change wouldnt make aa cruisers immune to carriers, only for like 30-40 seconds and then recharge the consumable for 1 minute+, all it would do is make carriers have to play around the consumable and be unable to just rush in with death by a thousand cuts, same as any other class in the game.

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2 minutes ago, thiextar said:

aa cruiser wouldnt ahve to be immune to aircraft if plane kills actually meant anything. I posted a screenshot above where my team killed 200 aircraft and the enemy carriers where still throwing planes at me till the moment we won....

 

They were throwing planes at me after having lost 100 planes each.... Kinda makes me wonder why i should even bother shooting them down at all.

no single CV can lose 100 planes in 20 minutes.....it does not have it, i stand corrected, it can...but his striking power is reduced 60-70 %

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1 minute ago, veslingr said:

no single CV can lose 100 planes in 20 minutes.....it does not have it

I posted the replay ^^

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45 minutes ago, thiextar said:

*Literally any ship: Presses hydro and is immune to torps*

 

And theres barely a single ship in the game that can achieve what you say with dfaa, that is pure made up lies. Possibly a minotaur with an absolutely max specced aa build, but that is far from a competative build...

I didnt say theres a ship in game that can do that. Read what i answered to. I meant there, that i as CV player would be ok with situation like that. I understand its hard to believe bc i must be defending my toy so much that i come up with lies to defend it. What you in your(i suppose) blind hate against CV dont understand is im playing them so much bc i dont want to fight them with current AA.

 

edit: Literally any ship: Presses hydro and is immune to torps. NOPE

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54 minutes ago, invicta2012 said:

Well, we can only try.

Well... I would do it like this.

 

BFT - gives a chance to scatter attacking planes and make attacks less accurate (5% chance per Tier every 5 seconds to increase dispersion of attacking rockets, bombs, etc) as well as current boosts. % chance could vary by ship class.

 

AFT - Increases AA DPS and gives sector control/sector efficacy (boosts from Manual AA skill as well as current AFT boosts)

 

New 4 point skill

 

Defensive AA Expertise - Gives the player +1 DFAA consumable and allows for manual selection of Flak patterns (control toggles through 1 - standard, 2 - pattern A, 3 - pattern B, 4 - random).

 

This would benefit DDs most as BFT is a standard DD skill, but the AFT/DAAE changes also allow cruisers a chance to spec into properly dangerous AA roles. Secondary BB builds might also become AA monsters, but that's a fair trade given how much else they give up. 

 

Defensive AA's Flak pattern control would allow defending players to ward off unicum CV players by removing the predictable nature of current flak bursts - although RNGesus might still let them through. Would be pretty awesome as a support skill as, in concert with other players, your flak would be all over the sky. 

 

The idea isn't to ruin CV players' fun altogether, just to make them act with a little more caution and have fewer "Ha, I win" scenarios.

I thought more along the lines of:

-minimal/base dispersion for DB/TB/RF is very small, capable of landing most if not all ordnance on DD sized target

-AA active (deals damage to planes) doubles that dispersion, so simple activating after being spotted already reduces chances of being hit

-flak is large caliber/DP guns feature only, otherwise DP guns deals no dps per se. Flak overlap with mid/short AA up to minimal distance, lets say 1km. Short/mid caliber AA provides dps only

-flak hits deal moderate (about 1/3 of current value?) damage to planes, but more importantly, introduces spikes to dispersion, which go down with aiming time. Spike effect is tied to gun caliber

-amount of flak is tied to amount DP guns available per broadside and their rof, to avoid situations like Bismarck being untouchable by sheer amount of crap coming from her quick firing 105mm

-DFAA doubles spike effect, (optional) is unlimited on all ships capable of equipping it

-(optional) AA cruisers equipped with 76mm mid caliber AA (Minotaur, Des Moines, Wooster) are considered large caliber, thus spawn extreme amount of flak, preventing accurate drops within range

 

BFT: increases main gun <139 and secondary reload speed as of now, increases dps of short/mid range AA.

AFT: increases main gun range <139 and increases secondary range as of now, (optional) increases short/mid range AA by 20% 

Manual AA (MFCfAAA) is replaced by "Proximity Fuses" - increases flak damage by 20%

Manual Secondaries (MFCfSA) is replaced by "Improved Gun Directors": increases range by 20% and decreases dispersion by 5% * [ship tier] for all secondary guns within reinforced sector

 

TL;DR AA isn't so much about killing planes, as mitigating damage by screwing with dispersion, while secondaries get buffed by removing single target penalty induced by Manual Secondaries and if someone wants, double range buff for the same point investment.

 

What I'm not sure of is what bonus give for AA from picking Sector. Plain dps? Increased reload for DP guns ergo, more flak? Also due to secondary effect, Sector could be bit more detailed - instead left/right, it could have 4 directions - front, rear, left, right and shortened switch time. That way secondaries take bit more effort to capitalize on and it tradeoff between picking sector with planes or with ships.

 

That or leave Sectors for secondaries, while AA becomes directional - after all, most ships have most AA guns on broadside, so if you want maximum pew pew, show broadside. Bow/Aft would provide 25% available dps, ideally would be LoS check done for AA guns so each mount have its own firing arc.

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1 hour ago, Profilus said:

I didnt say theres a ship in game that can do that. Read what i answered to. I meant there, that i as CV player would be ok with situation like that. I understand its hard to believe bc i must be defending my toy so much that i come up with lies to defend it. What you in your(i suppose) blind hate against CV dont understand is im playing them so much bc i dont want to fight them with current AA.

 

edit: Literally any ship: Presses hydro and is immune to torps. NOPE

Sorry, i misunderstood you then, but in my defense i cant hear the tone of your voice or see facial expressions :Smile_coin:

 

Anyhow, im used to so many people effectively arguing that carriers shouldnt have a counter, so i get pissed whenever i hear it

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