Soviet Battleships: The History and Features of the In-Game Ship Models

[ColonelPete]

Just now, Jean_Bart said:

Dare to give any reliable sources outside the Wargaming's realm or sites with TLD different than .ru or .рф ?!

I am not doing your work. But since you have to read books that would be wasted on you anyway...

[Lacomble1942]

50 minutes ago, Jean_Bart said:

No matter how much you try and recalculate the score - it will not make the fake/fictional ships any more real!

Please try to explain and prove your thesis!

Source ?!

Reliable source of these "projects" ?!

No matter how hard you try, you cannot change the fact that more french battleships were projected, laid down and comissioned, than  russian/soviet!

The russian tech-tree has only one battleship that really existed! Period! No other teach tree or navy in this game has bigger percentage of fake/fictional ships!

Prove me wrong, if you dare !

"All that jazz" is nothing more than a fantasy, having little to nothing to do with history!

They are literally making-up ships that never existed, without even the stlightest historic eveidence that they could or would exist at any point of history!

 

 

Dare to give any reliable sources outside the Wargaming's realm or sites with TLD different than .ru or .рф ?!

Soon we will have Luke Skywalker, Buck Rogers, Capt Nemo with there ships in the game also.  WG keep it real i know it sucks to be Russia but don't start to cheat with all those project ships. IF YOU DONT HAVE IT YOU WILL NEVER HAVE IT.

[HystericalAccuracy]

@TomsonPRD since you down-vote everything i say in this conversation, you may feel free to show me where i am wrong.

 

Spoiler

My post was NOT about some "Italians-running-from-action"-jokes, as i explicitly pointed out.

So where am i wrong, what did the big ships of the Italian fleet do in WWII?

[HystericalAccuracy]

8 hours ago, Jean_Bart said:

All i presented are facts !

You said WG went wild with their fantasy. That´s not really a fact since WG elaborated that they used blueprints, in some cases the plans of ships that were partly built. 

 

 

[Jean_Bart]

On 5/1/2019 at 8:51 PM, ColonelPete said:

I am not doing your work. But since you have to read books that would be wasted on you anyway...

I can only read sources that have already been written !

How could i possibly read anything that doesn't exist, while explaining events that NEVER happened ?!

On 5/1/2019 at 9:42 PM, Killroy67 said:

Soon we will have Luke Skywalker, Buck Rogers, Capt Nemo with there ships in the game also.  WG keep it real i know it sucks to be Russia but don't start to cheat with all those project ships. IF YOU DONT HAVE IT YOU WILL NEVER HAVE IT.

All countries have unpredictable future, but Russia is the only one that has unpredictable past !

22 hours ago, drmajga said:

You said WG went wild with their fantasy. That´s not really a fact since WG elaborated that they used blueprints, in some cases the plans of ships that were partly built.

Sources?! I am still waiting for them !

Facts are simple - only Ganguts were actually built, Izmail and Soviet Union were partially built but scrapped long before completion!

ALL other battleships in the soviet tech-tree are fakes and fantasies! On top of that - overpowered fantasies !

[ColonelPete]

3 minutes ago, Jean_Bart said:

I can only read sources that have already been written !

How could i possibly read anything that doesn't exist, while explaining events that NEVER happened ?!

Then do it. Google scanned some of the books and you can read the info there. But be warned that these excerpts can only be read a limited number of times.

[Lacomble1942]

On ‎4‎/‎29‎/‎2019 at 3:00 PM, The_EURL_Guy said:

Welcome eight new steel monsters, ready to hit the high seas in World of Warships!

Read it on the portal

POST SOME REAL PICS FROM THESE SHIPS. 

[HystericalAccuracy]

13 hours ago, Jean_Bart said:

Sources?! I am still waiting for them

You will either have to wait longer or look up what i stated earlier regarding this.

 

13 hours ago, Jean_Bart said:

Facts are simple - only Ganguts were actually built, Izmail and Soviet Union were partially built but scrapped long before completion!

ALL other battleships in the soviet tech-tree are fakes and fantasies! On top of that - overpowered fantasies

Yep, some were built, contrary to your initial claim that all are fantasy.

Also, "overpowered"? That is to be seen over time. Long reload, bad dispersion at range, exposed citadel etc are good balancing factors to the close-up accuracy.

 

As a sidenote: you call yourself Jean_Bart... if it´s the guy - ok.

But if you mean the ship... that´s a real joke. When was it put in service, 1956? With only one turret ever operating? And without the help of the USA (as usual) it wouldn´t even come that far.

 

 

EDIT:

Wait.. did you go back and down-vote my previous comments on this topic which don´t even have to do with you? 

I remember you stating that Jean Bart is your favorite ship and you were angry that WG made it so expensive when it was announced.

Oh look, also hidden stats

...

I think i can put this spoiled brat on the ignore-list. You don´t seem to cope well with opinions which threaten your fragile little world.

[SparvieroVV]

On 5/1/2019 at 5:30 PM, drmajga said:

@TomsonPRD since you down-vote everything i say in this conversation, you may feel free to show me where i am wrong.

 

  Hide contents

My post was NOT about some "Italians-running-from-action"-jokes, as i explicitly pointed out.

So where am i wrong, what did the big ships of the Italian fleet do in WWII?

Caused one Malta convoy to sail so far south the convoy was basically destroyed before meaningful amount of supplies could be offloaded by air power.  Caused the cancellation of a second operation completely. Allowed large convoys to get through to Africa without issue. Generally kept the British from running battleships through the central Med for a long time until the RN had the backing of the USN. 

[HystericalAccuracy]

Just now, SparvieroVV said:

Allowed large convoys to get through to Africa without issue.

Afaik the Italians failed hard in this discipline, the Germans had to help out again and again.

 

Just now, SparvieroVV said:

Caused one Malta convoy to sail so far south the convoy was basically destroyed before meaningful amount of supplies could be offloaded by air power. 

Caused merchant and transport vessel to run away so that submarines and planes can deal with them undisturbed. Basically what the Tirpitz did in Norway (fleet-in-being). Is that a noteworthy achievement, a battle to be glorified? Huge BBs to scare some freighters...

Also who did destroy the large convoy that the Italians scared away? Think it was the Germans, again. After the Aeronautica Militare attacked for two days without sinking a single ship the Luftwaffe came and wrecked the convoy in a few hours iirc.

 

Why are we even discussing this?

Yes, I want Italian ships in-game finally.

Yes, i have Duca1, Duca2 and Giulio.

Also Yes, i am tired of Italian Navy when? and Gimme REAL ships when!?!?!?!

And no, i don´t mind playing ships which were unsuccessful or never put in service. No matter what nation(ality).

 

Also: in this thread you will find a guy asking why does it take so long to implement Italian ships;

- then i remind him that the Italians didn´t allow WG access to their archives;

- to which Italian guy replies "rightfully so!"

I mean ... dafuq?

[SparvieroVV]

1 hour ago, drmajga said:

Afaik the Italians failed hard in this discipline, the Germans had to help out again and again.

 

Caused merchant and transport vessel to run away so that submarines and planes can deal with them undisturbed. Basically what the Tirpitz did in Norway (fleet-in-being). Is that a noteworthy achievement, a battle to be glorified? Huge BBs to scare some freighters...

Also who did destroy the large convoy that the Italians scared away? Think it was the Germans, again. After the Aeronautica Militare attacked for two days without sinking a single ship the Luftwaffe came and wrecked the convoy in a few hours iirc.

 

Why are we even discussing this?

Yes, I want Italian ships in-game finally.

Yes, i have Duca1, Duca2 and Giulio.

Also Yes, i am tired of Italian Navy when? and Gimme REAL ships when!?!?!?!

And no, i don´t mind playing ships which were unsuccessful or never put in service. No matter what nation(ality).

 

Also: in this thread you will find a guy asking why does it take so long to implement Italian ships;

- then i remind him that the Italians didn´t allow WG access to their archives;

- to which Italian guy replies "rightfully so!"

I mean ... dafuq?

You asked a question and then disregard it with disinformation. *shrug*

 

Have fun wehraboo.

[Lacomble1942]

Ships must sell thats the only thing that counts. SELL SELL SELL SELL.   So more Russian paper ships will Sell to the fan's of Russian ships.  They dont care that player start not to like all these fake ships. WG has milk your wallet so no need for them to keep you happy

[Midway67]

On 4/30/2019 at 10:28 PM, Jean_Bart said:

At least they could have introduced Novorosyisk (Giulio Cesare) at tier 6 and Archangelsk (Royal Sovereign) at tier 7 as more real an existing ships, instead of complete fantasies/fakes!

Perhaps that is already noted for a longer-term plan. 

Novorosyisk could easily be added in future as a premium tier 6 Russian battleship (along the lines of Nürnberg > Admiral Makarov).

And Archangelsk could then be added as the tier 7 premium, to fit inbetween the premium tier 6 (Novorosyisk) and tier 8 (Lenin) premium! 

[HystericalAccuracy]

On 5/3/2019 at 3:24 PM, SparvieroVV said:

Have fun wehraboo.

   I had to look up what a wehraboo is, i think you should do it too.

 

Stating facts like the low effectivity of certain forces has nothing to do with being horny for the Wehrmacht. That Germany had to help out in the Mediterranean was a thing, like it or not. The goal is also not to discard the devotion of the individual Italian soldier. As i stated: Italy had bigger problems than fighting a war which it wasn´t prepared for.

 

 

On 5/3/2019 at 3:24 PM, SparvieroVV said:

You asked a question and then disregard it with disinformation.

What disinformation? I stated facts which you can look up in books and testimonies of veterans. If that is not enough, you can look up technical data of the equipment of the time;

 

just one technical example: the Italian planes were chronically under-powered, their engines had on average only 50-70% the power of a foreign plane of same type. That made E.g. the torpedo-bombers too slow and vulnerable. They were easy destroy in the attack and the surviving ones struggled to escape because of poor climb-rate and acceleration.

And don´t let us start with the Italian tanks of the time.

 

Does that lead to low combat- efectivity - Yes.

Does it mean that i think all Italians are dumb? - Nope.

Does it mean that i am a wehraboo? - According to you it does. Welp.

 

I understand that you are not happy reading my post, but calling names shows that you are just angry and have nothing really to say. If you choose to be angry instead of contributing to a discussion, well, that´s your decision.

 

On 5/3/2019 at 3:24 PM, SparvieroVV said:

*shrug*

*shrug*

[aI_Sai_Far_Q]

On 4/29/2019 at 8:50 PM, 1MajorKoenig said:

@MrConway I have to give you credit for not having butchered Gangut with some fantasy rebuilding sh*** like Kaiser. Leaves  the question: when do you fix Kaiser and König and give them proper hulls?

 N O T H I N G wrong with the Konig   Dafuq are you kvetching about 

[Karasu_Browarszky]

On 4/29/2019 at 11:13 PM, 1MajorKoenig said:

 

As far as I am aware: two.

 

- Tsushima 

- Doggerbank incident (1904)

 

The first one being a harsh defeat - the second one ... well look it up 

 

 

Perhaps it is best to call the second one a close tie so as not to offend anyone.

[1MajorKoenig]

On 5/5/2019 at 4:47 AM, KpnFarqinMAgick said:

 N O T H I N G wrong with the Konig   Dafuq are you kvetching about 

 

Have you ever looked ast what WG did to “invent” these refits? Garbage is a harsh understatement 

[Jean_Bart]

On 5/3/2019 at 1:55 PM, drmajga said:

Yep, some were built, contrary to your initial claim that all are fantasy.

"Some" is in fact only one (Gangut-class)!

At least they could have introduced Empress Maria class, somewhere in the tech-tree, instead of complete fakes !

These actions of WG show either blatant ignorance towards naval history or deliberate attempt to distort it!

On 5/3/2019 at 1:55 PM, drmajga said:

Also, "overpowered"? That is to be seen over time. Long reload, bad dispersion at range, exposed citadel etc are good balancing factors to the close-up accuracy.

How about the trollish armor and the guns of unprecedented high caliber, which appear as if soviet ships were the first armed with them?!

Not to mention the unrealistic armor/speed ratio, which is nearly impossible given the soviet technology at the time and the powerplants available to the soviets!

On 5/3/2019 at 1:55 PM, drmajga said:

As a sidenote: you call yourself Jean_Bart... if it´s the guy - ok.

But if you mean the ship... that´s a real joke. When was it put in service, 1956? With only one turret ever operating? And without the help of the USA (as usual) it wouldn´t even come that far.

Apart from the ship's namesake, MN Jean Bart was actually built and in service between 1956 and 1968!

The last Gangut was scrapped the same year Jean Bart entered service !

On 5/3/2019 at 1:55 PM, drmajga said:

EDIT:

Wait.. did you go back and down-vote my previous comments on this topic which don´t even have to do with you? 

I downwote all comments i don't agree with !

Don't think you are special !

On 5/3/2019 at 1:55 PM, drmajga said:

I remember you stating that Jean Bart is your favorite ship and you were angry that WG made it so expensive when it was announced.

I bought it with coal and used discount coupon !

On 5/3/2019 at 1:55 PM, drmajga said:

Oh look, also hidden stats

Hidden indeed, so people with mods will not focus on me in battle !

I can assure you, my stats are similar to yours!

On 5/3/2019 at 1:55 PM, drmajga said:

I think i can put this spoiled brat on the ignore-list. You don´t seem to cope well with opinions which threaten your fragile little world.

On 5/4/2019 at 11:40 PM, Midway67 said:

Perhaps that is already noted for a longer-term plan. 

Novorosyisk could easily be added in future as a premium tier 6 Russian battleship (along the lines of Nürnberg > Admiral Makarov).

And Archangelsk could then be added as the tier 7 premium, to fit inbetween the premium tier 6 (Novorosyisk) and tier 8 (Lenin) premium! 

I wonder why they are filling the game with complete fakes!

That is repulsive!

[Karasu_Browarszky]

How many of them are complete fantasy (fakes)? Some are based on actual but never-to-be-realized projects, if I have understood correctly. Some are later period refits, some are ships that were laid out but never completed.

[deBanfield]

If they don't want to pursue an Italian tech-tree, they should at least have the full complement of Italian premium ships made available for purchase, and at a much discounted price!
(I think there are four: Roma, Giulio Cesare, Duca degli Abbruzzi and Duca d' Aosta.)

[HystericalAccuracy]

On 5/3/2019 at 12:55 PM, drmajga said:

some were built, contrary to your initial claim that all are fantasy.

 

5 hours ago, Jean_Bart said:

"Some" is in fact only one (Gangut-class)!

Wrong. Several calsses were started, but WWI and later WWII came and put naval projects on ice, just like in France (Normandie, Lyon...)

 

Pre-WWI one class of 3 ships was built and launched ("launched" aka really built), plus the on-off ship Impregnator Nick:

 

Spoiler

 

Pre WWII the Sovyetskis:

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

5 hours ago, Jean_Bart said:

in fact only one

your bias is not a fact, it´s in fact just bias. Don´t claim your opinions as facts.

[Jean_Bart]

On 5/6/2019 at 4:37 PM, Karasu_Hidesuke said:

How many of them are complete fantasy (fakes)?

Out of 8 russian battleships in the current tech tree, 5 are complete fakes, 2 were laid down but scrapped before completion (Izmail and Soviet Union) and only one was real, comissioned ship (Gangut)!

5 fakes out of 8 ships makes exactly 62,5% fake rate ! This is more than half and almost equal to two-thirds! No other branch or tree has such insanely high percentage of fake ships!

On 5/6/2019 at 9:07 PM, VIadoCro said:

Wrong.

This summarizes your whole post !

[HystericalAccuracy]

@Jean_bart i will reply for a last time to you:

 

- you claimed that ALL RU BBs apart from one are "PURE FANTASY" - and that´s what i called out as wrong. And it is wrong because:

 

- several classes were partly built and launched (you can´t launch fantasy, only a really built hull) so your claim is already false

 

- the other in-game classes are designed after blueprints designed in WWI-WWI;  not on fantasy as you claim

 

Two of the classes may be fantasy, if that makes you happy

 

3 hours ago, Jean_Bart said:

On 5/6/2019 at 8:07 PM, VIadoCro said:

Wrong.

This summarizes your whole post !

I understand that you don´t care about the stated facts. But i just refuted your complete post, not the other way arund.

[MRGTB]

Lenin is in the shop for sale. Any reviews about it so far?

[Ashtaron]

Alas, I really didn't want to come back to this staggeringly intellectual discussion, but as Leo Tolstoy once said when similarly faced with (considerably less hilarious) hypocrisy, "I cannot be silent."

On 5/1/2019 at 8:49 PM, Jean_Bart said:

They are literally making-up ships that never existed, without even the stlightest historic eveidence that they could or would exist at any point of history!

So I still don't understand - even if that were true (which it isn't, but we've already established that if a Russian told you the sky is blue, you'd scream that it's green till your last breath), why is it specifically the Soviet ships you single out instead of most certifiably fabricated Roon, Hindenburg, Conqueror, Henri IV and Republique? There might be more that those, actually, but since I don't consider a bit of what-if in an arcade game a crime against humanity, you'll have to excuse me if I don't recall every one of them off the top of my head.

I mean, that BB line isn't even good. The concept of a close combat BB with a citadel reaching up to the conning tower and a turning circle half a map wide is idiotic and the execution is painful to look at it. Probably even more painful to play. I wouldn't know, I've popped enough Vladivostoks lately to realize I'm in no hurry to subject myself to this sort of sadomasochistic fun. I think I'll wait until the first round of buffs. Given how it took months for Grozovoi to become even remotely competitive and two years for Dmitry Donskoi to receive somewhat acceptable gun angles, I'm not holding my breath.

Seriously, what's your problem? Is it something against the Russians?

 

On 5/1/2019 at 8:49 PM, Jean_Bart said:

Reliable source of these "projects

Reliable, or one that doesn't contradict your fragile little "thesis"? You know which one it really is, don't even try to wriggle out of this one.

 

On 5/1/2019 at 8:49 PM, Jean_Bart said:

Dare to give any reliable sources outside the Wargaming's realm or sites with TLD different than .ru or .рф

Utter ridiculousness of the request aside, but here's one on Sinop. 5 seconds in Google. http://www.e-reading.by/bookreader.php/1007019/Vinogradov_-_Poslednie_ispoliny_Rossiyskogo_Imperatorskogo_flota.html

Written by a well-known Russian naval historian, engineer by trade. And no, that's not some "literal who", he's been cited in Western sources such as Warship 2018 by John Jordan, Russian and Soviet Battleships by Stephen McLaughlin (would love to get my hands on that one) and a couple others. I remind you, that's just on Kostenko's Black Sea battleship, aka Sinop. I can just as easily find information on all the others.

 

That said, don't think I actually intend to play along with your arbitrary goalposts and rapid relocation thereof. Do you have any reliable reasons to automatically disqualify the sources that would be both the most interested and the most qualified to study the source material? I think I even know the word you're going to use. It starts with "P" and rhymes with "Uganda". Which is a little hilarious at this point, as, according to your conspiracy theory, historians have spent decades combing archives and studying hundreds of literary sources (seriously, check out that reference list at the bottom) to... fabricate ship designs for Wargaming to use decades later.

 

Makes perfect sense. Can you tell the sarcasm there? Because I meant it.

 

On 5/1/2019 at 8:49 PM, Jean_Bart said:

No other teach tree or navy in this game has bigger percentage of fake/fictional ships!

...So? You keep screaming that like it's a bad thing. At some point some line would end up being the most "paper" one. You should be happy it's not the French BBs anymore (from a certain point of view, see below).

On 5/1/2019 at 8:49 PM, Jean_Bart said:

Prove me wrong, if you dare

 

Easily: 0 fabrications, 5 projects, 1 completed, 3 partially built. 4/8 steel ships.

Let's look at the French BBs: 1 fabrication, 3 steel, 1 partially built and later converted, 3 projects. 3/8. Why 3/8? Because I said so -1 for Republique. I could add another -1 for Turenne, but I think I've made my point.

Obviously, this methodology is just as bonkers as yours and merely serves the purpose of demonstrating how ridiculous your little crusade looks. I don't actually believe that.