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faroria

simple question about balancing.

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So we all know that dd are currently being destroy by everything on the game, radar were buffed, flooding nerfed, and with cv you can't play if the cv do want your [edited]. Plus from what i understand WG want to include cv in competitive play. So i think we all know wich will be the primary target of every good cv player in competitive. So here is my question, what's the plan for dd? will you just abandon it at the stage it's in, letting them just die with time? I think we all do agree that dd are curently not competitive, being perma spoted. What really scares me is the french dd, i think this is what wg is doing to preserve dd : hit and run type of dd, being spoted want matter that much.but what about the others? Why of all the classes i feel like the classe that demand a lot of skill too perform well is agin getting a nerf hammer? How are we supposed to play dd in Clan War for example when a cv is around? I'm not one of the best player but i do know that if i get for exaple a midway that want me dead whatever dd i am in i'll die. so? what's the plan?

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the main problem for me is the fact that carrier are coming to ranked and and CB :( there is a limit to adaptation when you get nerfed on every one of you're strengh

 

 

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1 hour ago, faroria said:

... So here is my question, what's the plan for dd? ...

You will probably need to be selective in which DD you play.

 

 

Player Average for Ships [ at 2019/04/20 ] Two months    

Grozovoi
Win Rate - 52.41%
Experience - 1642
Damage - 47335
A/C Destroyed - 4.23
Base Capture - 34.30
Base Defense - 8.12
Survived -    33.85%    

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I've adapted by not playing destroyers anymore. Sure I can make them work in the new meta, but it's no fun, and ill do much better in a cruiser or bb, so what's the point? 

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I do not see any problem with DD

 

Spoiler

lode.png

 

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33 minutes ago, Culiacan_Mexico said:

Why do people do that?  Bring up their stats and try to imply it defines the META?

Bragging.

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15 minutes ago, Culiacan_Mexico said:

Why do people do that?  Bring up their stats and try to imply it defines the META?

When people make blanket statement like "X class is impossible to play", and "there's nothing you can do" expect people who don't find playing them to be a problem to counter those statements, and use themselves as proof its not impossible.

 

Personally I havent had a problem using DD either - the ultra low air detection of DD makes avoiding aircraft not too hard. What it does require however is looking at the minimap and working out what the planes are doing: If they are going for someone else (e.g AP or TB) then just stay out of the flight path. If they're looking for you (rockets or HE bombs) then give no visual clues; dont go into a cap, avoid obvious routes so dont beeline straight to cap, "hide" in the bramble patch of strong AA since CV are highly unlikely to fly around in a minotaurs AA to see if you're in there too, and if you really cant do any of those then smoke early before getting spotted so it doesnt know your exact position.

Caps require a bit more patience than previously, but they are certainly capturable and dont require your entire team.

 

Conversely CV actually provide a  bunch of benefits to DD if they care to use them;

-CV early spot a ton of the radar cruisers, so you know where they are without playing island suprise.

-Less prepared DD die because they yolod cap or refuse to ever go near it. This actually makes caps less contested

-Since CV spot even by accident you can be far more selfish with smoke and get away with shooting from smoke since you dont block the teams vision by smoking.

-Enemy likes to blob up for AA. Torps love blobs.

-People still presume planes will spot torps for them.

 

 

Now the real question is do you balance based on the best or the average? Because the average will probably not utilise any of the above.

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2 hours ago, Beaker71 said:

This seems to be WGs plan for DDs

image.png.4edc4aad8fde710e4a249e01a3d96e3e.png

So... introduce submarines, you mean?

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48 minutes ago, Xevious_Red said:

 

Now the real question is do you balance based on the best or the average? Because the average will probably not utilise any of the above.

First, there will always be people that don't have an issue with what ever is happening. For instance, the Shima Meta wasn't an issue for me, but overall it seemed to have been to others.

 

Second, individual win percent is pretty much zero sum: if you have a high win percentage then others have to have a lower one.  It means nothing with regards to META balance.

 

Third, at one time WG said they not only adjusted overall ships stats to be balanced with other ships, but balanced the ships so that the player base was 'balance' (The good weren't too good and the bad weren't too bad).  Minekaze and sister were never OP.  When the entire player base had access to this ship its win rate was around 50%, but it still wasn't balanced properly because the vast differences a good vs a bad player could achieve with it.

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I play DD's less often these days, but i do division with a CV in my Kidd for the lols but thats really it these days.

I am just an average player and tbh, DD's are not fun since the CV rework

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He does have point Frech DD with no smoke will be very hard to play if used to rush caps unsupported. Now smoke can still be used to escape just punisment for idiot play.

 

Maybe after that DD will finally stop attempting to cap unsupported as some twisted mandatory tactic sired by complete [edited].

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24 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

He does have point Frech DD with no smoke will be very hard to play if used to rush caps unsupported. Now smoke can still be used to escape just punisment for idiot play.

 

 

Just had a game against the Tier X French DD, and yikes - that thing caused some damage!. Ok the guy driving it was unicum, and there was element of WTF is that in my play (in a Daring), but yes - not one for capping an open area, but ripped me apart near a cap. 

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4 hours ago, faroria said:

So we all know that dd are currently being destroy by everything on the game, radar were buffed, flooding nerfed, and with cv you can't play if the cv do want your [edited]. Plus from what i understand WG want to include cv in competitive play. So i think we all know wich will be the primary target of every good cv player in competitive. So here is my question, what's the plan for dd? will you just abandon it at the stage it's in, letting them just die with time? I think we all do agree that dd are curently not competitive, being perma spoted. What really scares me is the french dd, i think this is what wg is doing to preserve dd : hit and run type of dd, being spoted want matter that much.but what about the others? Why of all the classes i feel like the classe that demand a lot of skill too perform well is agin getting a nerf hammer? How are we supposed to play dd in Clan War for example when a cv is around? I'm not one of the best player but i do know that if i get for exaple a midway that want me dead whatever dd i am in i'll die. so? what's the plan?

Teh ultimate answer to what plan to the end of all starting for balancing is....

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It depends. yw :Smile_great:

 

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6 hours ago, faroria said:

So we all know that dd are currently being destroy by everything on the game, radar were buffed, flooding nerfed, and with cv you can't play if the cv do want your [edited]. Plus from what i understand WG want to include cv in competitive play. So i think we all know wich will be the primary target of every good cv player in competitive. So here is my question, what's the plan for dd? will you just abandon it at the stage it's in, letting them just die with time? I think we all do agree that dd are curently not competitive, being perma spoted. What really scares me is the french dd, i think this is what wg is doing to preserve dd : hit and run type of dd, being spoted want matter that much.but what about the others? Why of all the classes i feel like the classe that demand a lot of skill too perform well is agin getting a nerf hammer? How are we supposed to play dd in Clan War for example when a cv is around? I'm not one of the best player but i do know that if i get for exaple a midway that want me dead whatever dd i am in i'll die. so? what's the plan?

  • all ships can be destroyed by everything
  • DD can survive vs 2 CV and still do an important job in winning the match
  • if DD are too challenging for you, play something else
  • when you know for sure that you will face CV in a DD, setup your DD accordingly
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6 hours ago, faroria said:

so? what's the plan?

Based on my experience (such as it is), if you want to play DDs, pick the ones with Good AA (US, Russian, KM etc.), and swap some of the old modules out for AA ones. Make sure the captain has BFT.

 

Then, play using a lot of the technique that you probably already have down pat for dealing with radar (thanks to the cruiser plague when the US line split etc.); plus, as @Xevious_Red says further up the page, make use of the positives that having a CV on your side provides.

 

Sadly, for the moment, most of the poor AA DDs are basically a lost cause - sucks to be anyone who, say, only has IJN torp boats...

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wow that's a lot of answers i'll try too take everybody point of view:

first

17 hours ago, ColonelPete said:
  • all ships can be destroyed by everything
  • DD can survive vs 2 CV and still do an important job in winning the match
  • if DD are too challenging for you, play something else
  • when you know for sure that you will face CV in a DD, setup your DD accordingly

i think of myself as a good dd player for example i am 260 on EU on Z52 so that show some skill plus dd were fun before taking 14k from a midway because rng ( hapened to me 3 days ago)

 

21 hours ago, Xevious_Red said:

When people make blanket statement like "X class is impossible to play", and "there's nothing you can do" expect people who don't find playing them to be a problem to counter those statements, and use themselves as proof its not impossible.

 

Personally I havent had a problem using DD either - the ultra low air detection of DD makes avoiding aircraft not too hard. What it does require however is looking at the minimap and working out what the planes are doing: If they are going for someone else (e.g AP or TB) then just stay out of the flight path. If they're looking for you (rockets or HE bombs) then give no visual clues; dont go into a cap, avoid obvious routes so dont beeline straight to cap, "hide" in the bramble patch of strong AA since CV are highly unlikely to fly around in a minotaurs AA to see if you're in there too, and if you really cant do any of those then smoke early before getting spotted so it doesnt know your exact position.

Caps require a bit more patience than previously, but they are certainly capturable and dont require your entire team.

 

Conversely CV actually provide a  bunch of benefits to DD if they care to use them;

-CV early spot a ton of the radar cruisers, so you know where they are without playing island suprise.

-Less prepared DD die because they yolod cap or refuse to ever go near it. This actually makes caps less contested

-Since CV spot even by accident you can be far more selfish with smoke and get away with shooting from smoke since you dont block the teams vision by smoking.

-Enemy likes to blob up for AA. Torps love blobs.

-People still presume planes will spot torps for them.

 

 

Now the real question is do you balance based on the best or the average? Because the average will probably not utilise any of the above.

you do are right in random i still have some minor issues against cv (i hate midways...) but overall it's playable. what i'm really conserned about is the implementation of CVs in competitive mode such as CW or ranked. Because we all now i think that the dpm of a cv incresase when the number of ship in the enemy team decrease (lost of AA) so putting cv's against a team with a maximum of one dd because meta and only 8 players if you're not getting focused you'll be really lucky!

 

22 hours ago, Culiacan_Mexico said:

You will probably need to be selective in which DD you play.

 

 

Player Average for Ships [ at 2019/04/20 ] Two months    

Grozovoi
Win Rate - 52.41%
Experience - 1642
Damage - 47335
A/C Destroyed - 4.23
Base Capture - 34.30
Base Defense - 8.12
Survived -    33.85%    

the problem is that yes grozo is a good AA dd but she will be perma spoted by enemy aircraft forcing her to play passive.

 

 

 

 

to finish i would want to add something about the most often critique i take when i talk about dd: "you should stay next to your cruiser" and you are pobanly right but then aswer this : cruiser stay at pretty long range from enemy team so most dd don't get the range to eiter fire their gun nor fire their torp (gearing being the execption with shima) so basicly you have to wait in fear of  being spoted by the enemy aircraft and stay useless next to your fleet. So, where is the fun, where are the possibiliies for a dd to be competitive?

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21 hours ago, Xevious_Red said:

What it does require however is looking at the minimap and working out what the planes are doing: If they are going for someone else (e.g AP or TB) then just stay out of the flight path.

 

I've lost count the amount of times I've been flying planes to a big obvious target and a DD sails right through my predicted path with AA on. If they had just kept AA off and changed course they would not have been spotted and become my new priority target. I've said in this forum before, that DD play now requires the highest skill level to succeed. But players (not saying OP or anything) still make potato mistake after potato mistake and wonder why they are being punished for it. So many DD's smoke.... then leave their smoke... what was the point? OK, I'll just DB you after all then....

 

This isn't just a CV is the problem issue... this is the playerbase still not learning issue. Not adapting, I mean not learning from countless mistakes. 

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2 minutes ago, Bear_Necessities said:

I've lost count the amount of times I've been flying planes to a big obvious target and a DD sails right through my predicted path with AA on. If they had just kept AA off and changed course they would not have been spotted and become my new priority target. I've said in this forum before, that DD play now requires the highest skill level to succeed. But players (not saying OP or anything) still make potato mistake after potato mistake and wonder why they are being punished for it. So many DD's smoke.... then leave their smoke... what was the point? OK, I'll just DB you after all then....

 

This isn't just a CV is the problem issue... this is the playerbase still not learning issue. Not adapting, I mean not learning from countless mistakes. 

i do agree with you on that point but i've been spoted countlles of time by a cv that just was going around on a target while i was trying too aneuver and aa was off.

 

still am i the only one her finding the fact that you can get 1/2 of your life down because one cv player was lucky a bit unbalanced? some may say " yeah but a bb player too can be lucky and citadel acruiser from the rear or bow" and i'll answer tat it is way easy to doge incoming shell in a cruiser. I often dodge all the shell of a BB when kitting just going where his shell aren't landing (thx dispersion)

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21 hours ago, Xevious_Red said:

When people make blanket statement like "X class is impossible to play", and "there's nothing you can do" expect people who don't find playing them to be a problem to counter those statements, and use themselves as proof its not impossible.

 

Personally I havent had a problem using DD either - the ultra low air detection of DD makes avoiding aircraft not too hard. What it does require however is looking at the minimap and working out what the planes are doing: If they are going for someone else (e.g AP or TB) then just stay out of the flight path. If they're looking for you (rockets or HE bombs) then give no visual clues; dont go into a cap, avoid obvious routes so dont beeline straight to cap, "hide" in the bramble patch of strong AA since CV are highly unlikely to fly around in a minotaurs AA to see if you're in there too, and if you really cant do any of those then smoke early before getting spotted so it doesnt know your exact position.

Caps require a bit more patience than previously, but they are certainly capturable and dont require your entire team.

 

Conversely CV actually provide a  bunch of benefits to DD if they care to use them;

-CV early spot a ton of the radar cruisers, so you know where they are without playing island suprise.

-Less prepared DD die because they yolod cap or refuse to ever go near it. This actually makes caps less contested

-Since CV spot even by accident you can be far more selfish with smoke and get away with shooting from smoke since you dont block the teams vision by smoking.

-Enemy likes to blob up for AA. Torps love blobs.

-People still presume planes will spot torps for them.

 

 

Now the real question is do you balance based on the best or the average? Because the average will probably not utilise any of the above.

Or just install matchmaker monitor to see that 8-9 out of 12 on your team has 20% win rate and 11k average dmg so all your guides it's just a waste of time.

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