1 vs 1, CV shits on any ship

[22cm]

End game situation, one ship left for each team, the carrier will always be able to kill the other ship left alive, even if it is a strong AA cruiser.

This has to change. At least strong AA cruisers should be able to defend themselves against carriers, and in this 1 vs 1 situation, to win against the carrier. 

Add to this that by that time, the carrier can be full HP, while for the other ship this is hardly possible, and probably its repairs or defensive AA have already been spent. 

[ColonelPete]

This is not a 1v1 game. When you lose your carriers before the enemy, your team did something wrong.

And when you cannot handle CV with a strong AA ship, you are messing up.

[22cm]

13 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

This is not a 1v1 game. When you lose your carriers before the enemy, your team did something wrong.

And when you cannot handle CV with a strong AA ship, you are messing up.

Not the team, the carrier player can be that bad that he does not see and move when the enemy rushes one flank, even when you tell him to run away. Or he is spotted by the other CV and sniped by a BB. The 40 % RTS CV players have not gone away, you know. 

 

On this one, you re dreaming. Bait his def AA (if he still has any left) then come back with the SAME squadron 40 secs later. At least before, the RTS CV had to use a different squadron, because the baiting one would have been wiped out. Not anymore. 

[ColonelPete]

7 minutes ago, 22cm said:

Not the team, the carrier player can be that bad that he does not see and move when the enemy rushes one flank, even when you tell him to run away. Or he is spotted by the other CV and sniped by a BB. The 40 % RTS CV players have not gone away, you know. 

 

On this one, you re dreaming. Bait his def AA (if he still has any left) then come back with the SAME squadron 40 secs later. At least before, the RTS CV had to use a different squadron, because the baiting one would have been wiped out. Not anymore. 

He is still part of your team. 

 

I have sunk enough CV with cruisers that did not even have Def AA that I know it is possible.

[159Hunter]

48 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

And when you cannot handle CV with a strong AA ship, you are messing up.

Wrong statement: the skill part lies with the CV, if he knows his business he will kill you. If he doesn't, your AA will be able to finish off his planes.

So it's not down to cruiser messing up, it's down to CV messing up.

26 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

 I have sunk enough CV with cruisers that did not even have Def AA that I know it is possible.

All in 1 vs 1 I assume?

[ColonelPete]

2 minutes ago, 159Hunter said:

Wrong statement: the skill part lies with the CV, if he knows his business he will kill you. If he doesn't, your AA will be able to finish off his planes.

So it's not down to cruiser messing up, it's down to CV messing up.

All in 1 vs 1 I assume?

There are at least two people in every fight.

 

Yes, sometimes with 2+ vs me.

[little_rowboat]

Vor 1 Stunde, 22cm sagte:

End game situation, one ship left for each team, the carrier will always be able to kill the other ship left alive, even if it is a strong AA cruiser.

This has to change. At least strong AA cruisers should be able to defend themselves against carriers, and in this 1 vs 1 situation, to win against the carrier. 

Add to this that by that time, the carrier can be full HP, while for the other ship this is hardly possible, and probably its repairs or defensive AA have already been spent. 

Imagine those circumstances in a BB vs DD situation. If the DD isn’t totally retarded the BB also has no chance. Is that unfair either?

 

As for reality (I know it‘s a game) - which ship could stand one on one vs. a CV staying out of range of the ship?

 

Or in former meta (ok planes were limited) but if the AA cruiser has spent all his def AA consumables he could hardly have won that 1 on 1 either if he wasn’t aware of the position and finds the CV to confront him. He would always be decapped and molten down step by step burning and flooding.

 

Would it be better/more realistic/more satisfying if 1 on 1 the CV would always be outplayed by competent AA cruiser captains.

Given the possible numbers of encounters and the attributes of a CV there is something right that the masterclass in a team game can not be outplayed 1 on 1 if both players have equal skillsets.

 

Sure it’s sad if the friendly CV died, even worse when he died because of bad moves/positioning.

But if it would have no impact, that the masterclass is alive or dead, there would be something wrong and the CV itself would be thwarted.

 

Besides: what you say only is right for tier 8 and 10 CVs, Tier 6 and 4 are handable even with def AA DDs even if 2 CVs go for you 1 on 2 and even if one of those CVs is unicum. (never met 2 unicums going for me at the same time in lower/mid tier).

[Kutfroat]

1 hour ago, dd__dd said:

Imagine those circumstances in a BB vs DD situation. If the DD isn’t totally retarded the BB also has no chance. Is that unfair either?

 

As for reality (I know it‘s a game) - which ship could stand one on one vs. a CV staying out of range of the ship?

 

Or in former meta (ok planes were limited) but if the AA cruiser has spent all his def AA consumables he could hardly have won that 1 on 1 either if he wasn’t aware of the position and finds the CV to confront him. He would always be decapped and molten down step by step burning and flooding.

 

Would it be better/more realistic/more satisfying if 1 on 1 the CV would always be outplayed by competent AA cruiser captains.

Given the possible numbers of encounters and the attributes of a CV there is something right that the masterclass in a team game can not be outplayed 1 on 1 if both players have equal skillsets.

 

Sure it’s sad if the friendly CV died, even worse when he died because of bad moves/positioning.

But if it would have no impact, that the masterclass is alive or dead, there would be something wrong and the CV itself would be thwarted.

 

Besides: what you say only is right for tier 8 and 10 CVs, Tier 6 and 4 are handable even with def AA DDs even if 2 CVs go for you 1 on 2 and even if one of those CVs is unicum. (never met 2 unicums going for me at the same time in lower/mid tier).

A BB dying to DD is totally fine, because the DD is its counter! A carrier killing an AA cruiser is not fine, because it kills its counter!

 

A carrier kills everything lategame, and that is wrong! That's one of the biggest issues. An AA cruiser should allways come out top versus a carrier, unless he makes a critical mistake. But if a carrier spots an AA cruiser, it should run, not go for it.

[Panocek]

Last time I've checked, rigid rock-paper-scissors is long gone... Destroyer beating the heck out of cruiser, cruiser beating BB and BB beating DD is normal these days, assuming former isn't using fart for a brain... so why suddenly "AA cruiser" must be invulnerable to semi not-potato CV player?

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Why not switch the arguments like reddit did? ☆♡☆

 

Just say "CV are unfun to play against not because they are strong but because no counterplay. Nerfs won't help the class needs to go!" ♡☆♡

 

It's the new trend on reddit.  ☆

[ColonelPete]

53 minutes ago, Kutfroat said:

A carrier kills everything lategame, and that is wrong! 

But that is not the case.

[beercrazy]

3 hours ago, 22cm said:

End game situation, one ship left for each team, the carrier will always be able to kill the other ship left alive, even if it is a strong AA cruiser.

This has to change. At least strong AA cruisers should be able to defend themselves against carriers, and in this 1 vs 1 situation, to win against the carrier. 

Add to this that by that time, the carrier can be full HP, while for the other ship this is hardly possible, and probably its repairs or defensive AA have already been spent. 

most of the time yes your right a cv will kill the enemy ship but I have twice been killed by last ship alive when I was a cv

first time I was in shokaku and it was a kidd killed me as he had rpf and found me even though I ran

second time I was in a Lexington and a mino killed me

 

yes its hard but if you use your ship right you can kill a enemy cv even when last ship alive

[bratisla_boy]

Once I found myself in this situation : a mid-life Normandie against a Ryujo leading by points in a standard battle. Except I was near the enemy cap - so someone advised me to deny the cap points by staying in their caps. Props to him by the way.

Ryujo threw everything it could at me, knowing that Normandie has poor AA (to stay polite). However, because of the Normandie mobility, I was able to dodge most of his attacks. And the red points weren't ticking in this process while green points were ... I give you the fact that points were not so far apart, hence it was a viable tactic even though the Ryujo could have gone to green cap - otherwise I would have been forced to chase him

We won by points. So 1 CV vs 1 ship is not guaranteed win for CV at all. Remember, a battle can be won in several ways ...

 

It depends heavily on the situation, I'd venture.

[Culiacan_Mexico]

3 hours ago, 22cm said:

End game situation

The End Game Meta is altered with the new CVs, as an endless supply of plane coupled with vastly increased aircraft speed has reduced the effectiveness of DD in late game.

[Mr_Glitter]

2 minutes ago, bratisla_boy said:

However, because of the Normandie mobility, I was able to dodge most of his attacks.

Misplay by the cv. 

4 minutes ago, bratisla_boy said:

It depends heavily on the situation, I'd venture.

And on the player. 

[FukushuNL]

3 hours ago, ColonelPete said:

This is not a 1v1 game. When you lose your carriers before the enemy, your team did something wrong.

Comparing one class vs the other in a 1 vs 1 is void imo in a teambased pvp game. Both teams have comparable resources, fighting on the same map and have equal chances to win. The only factor that can get out of whack is the human one and blaming that is pointless imo.

 

So many things can make the outcome basicallly fixed at the end. T8 vs 10, BB vs DD, low health cruiser vs High health cruiser, ship vs carrier, 1 ship vs 4 ships. And it's all a result of the rest of the battle of 12 vs 12 comparable ships. In the end it's the human factor though who will win the aforementioned seemingly fixed outcome. So a 1 vs 1 comparison is of no use. Certainly not if you also take round time, points and caps in account. 

 

So you end up facing a carrier in a 1 vs 1. There are lots of other "unfair" scenarios in the endgame situations. Just the result of a match, nothing more.

[invicta2012]

Nah. And if you want an example... Have a look at the increasingly aggressive gameplay used by CV drivers in many endgame situations. They used to be found behind the biggest rock at the back of the map. Now they're often in the caps. And why not? They often go undamaged until the end of the game, which means they're driving 30+ knot ships with decent secondaries and a big HP pool: that, let alone their primary weapons, can be a decisive advantage. 

[WeGreedy]

19 minutes ago, invicta2012 said:

that, let alone their primary weapons, can be a decisive advantage. 

You can just set him on fire, so he can't launch planes anymore. For five seconds. 

Ignore, missed the change on that.

[El2aZeR]

Just now, B0Tato said:

You can just set him on fire, so he can't launch planes anymore. For five seconds. 

 

Except reworked CVs can still launch planes when on fire.

[WeGreedy]

2 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Except CVs can still launch planes when on fire.

Did they change that too, or are you talking about when having the commander skill?

[El2aZeR]

Just now, B0Tato said:

Did they change that too? Or are you talking about when having the commander skill?

 

Yes, it got changed.

The skill no longer exists.

[MRGTB]

Oh boy! Not another CV thread.

[DFens_666]

1 hour ago, ColonelPete said:

But that is not the case.

 

Yes it is. You see CVs being the sole survivors in 2v2 CV endgame all the time. How does that happen? Last 2 remaining surface ships kill each other magically all the time? Ofc not. But CVs have craziest AA of all, and are half-immune to each other.

3 hours ago, dd__dd said:

Imagine those circumstances in a BB vs DD situation. If the DD isn’t totally retarded the BB also has no chance. Is that unfair either?

 

Sorry have to say, you are wrong here, because you are looking at apples and oranges.

A DD staying alive for the entire game, facing a BB as a last opponent is already an accomplishment for the DD player, and he should win vs a BB. A CV (hull) doesnt have to do anything except sit behind an island to not die. Any other ship can not just simply park at the safest location of the map and be 100% usefull.

Talking about hightier CVs, they are much too strong against everything except BB AP. If angled, not even that will hurt. (Yeah well, and torps, if you let the DD come close enough, but we all know how that usually ends )

Try shooting a CV longrange with a Cruiser.

AP - Nope

HE - Nope

Fires - LMAO

Get closer to him - yeah right... french speedboats could do it, unless you make them dodge, or they die aswell.

I had the pleasure of fighting a T8 CV with my Fiji once, which was fully angled reversing at 8km. Not only cant i deal any damage, he is throwing so much crap at me, that i can hardly get any closer to him. He was attacking faster than BBs reload

Certainly its warrented, that Cruisers have very good AA, and they should retain that throughout all game imo. Also i think, RN CLs on midtiers need stronger AA, simply because CVs can angle against their damage, making them immune to their AP shells. Since many people said, no ships should be immune to another one, its only fair that they have better AA to make a level playing field

[asalonen]

3 hours ago, dd__dd said:

Imagine those circumstances in a BB vs DD situation. If the DD isn’t totally retarded the BB also has no chance. Is that unfair either?

I was about to bring up exactly this. The game is 12 versus 12. The game can end up in many 1 versus 1 situations that are anything but even. It's not the movie finish with two guys facing each other on a street, both wearing a revolver. One of them already lost the game; or rather, his team did.

I imagine this topic exists only because in 1 versus 1 situations it's now very common that at least one of them is a CV.

[bratisla_boy]

Il y a 1 heure, Der_Naschfuchs a dit :

Misplay by the cv.  

And on the player. 

I guess so. Wars are won by the side who makes the fewer mistakes. But even with perfect DB drops with Normandie dodge capacities I'm quite confident I would have stalled points enough to get the victory.

This was on tier 6 also. Experience may differ in higher tiers.