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thiextar

Full secondary bismarck build

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So a friend of mine recently got the bismarck, and currently have the beginnings of a full secondary build at 14 points(pt, ar, si, aft, man-sec)

 

Anyhow he needs it planned for the full 19 points. He wants an all out secondary build that is still competative, so what ive got so far is this: https://worldofwarships.com/en/content/captains-skills/?skills=1,3,9,17,23,26,28&ship=Battleship

 

I picked bft cause it buffs secondaries and aa, and em because i had two points to spare, si because of the extra heal/hydro/plane

 

Dunno if this is the best build, or if ifhe is worth it on german secondaries.

 

Anyhow, please give me pointers on bismarck builds as i dont even play german bbs lol, remember tho, its not the most competative build he is after, but the most competative full-secondary build.

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Does PT for 1 point actually help a secondary build?

 

I can't see how it benefits a secondary build at all, when you could take PM or EL instead for 1 point.

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4 minutes ago, MRGTB said:

Does PT for 1 point actually help a secondary build?

 

I can't see how it benefits a secondary build at all, when you could take PM or EL instead for 1 point.

priority target allows you to know when you are targeted, how many are targetting you, thus lets you know what options you have. 

 

If more people are targettting you than are spotted on the map, it tells you how the enemy team us moving and where there is likely to be ships.

 

Based on how many are aiming at you, it lets you know how you can position, how much side you can show, how agressive you can play. If you can use all guns or front/rear only, which direction you should face etc etc.

 

If the number goes down, then up, it tells you that torpedoes have been launched against you, etc etc etc.

 

I value priority target extremely highly, because it provides sooo much information. I would still take it on many ships if it costed 4 points. 

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1 hour ago, thiextar said:

I picked bft cause it buffs secondaries and aa, and em because i had two points to spare, si because of the extra heal/hydro/plane

I would have gone for DE for 3 points with BFT instead of BFT and SI. DE will help the secondary cause more fires and also make the main guns have a better fire chance as well, which is not good on Bismark for main guns with HE used without DE

 

You can get the special German captain with 2 perked skills and use him on Bismark. One of those perked skills is Vigilante which is more useful than SI on Bismark (also) because it extends the range of the Hydro to spot torps earlier (and its perked on that special captain to be even better. The other perked skill is Jack of all Trades I think which gives you a faster reload of damage control party ( again useful because Bismark burns easy, and everyone will try and burn you with HE in that ship). But taking both perked skills with him means you can't take IFHE and Manual Secondary, not if you also take AR, BFT, AFT which are part of a secondary build with Manual Secondary (and the optional IFHE)

 

I don't think going for 2 things for 3 points will leave you enough now to get IFHE, AFT and Manual Secondary (3 - 4 point skills). And I would pick MS and AFT before picking IFHE, if you can't have all 3 together.

 

This would be the best secondary build:

 

1 - PM, EL (or PT as one if you want that)

2 - AR

3- BFT

4  - IFHE, AFT, MS

 

if you didn't take IFHE as part of the build, then I would go with something like this:

 

1 - EL (you have better HE with "DE skill" used, so EL will be more useful now for switching ammo types faster)

2 - AR, JOT (or another 2 pointer you prefer)

3 - BFT, DE

4 - AFT, MS

 

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14 minutes ago, thiextar said:

priority target allows you to know when you are targeted, how many are targetting you, thus lets you know what options you have. 

The way I look at it. PT is best suited to DD ships. A BB ship is too slow on turning and speed to make use of PT like a DD can quickly turn away and move off fast before shots come from ships targetting it. So I fail to see what real use PT is used on a BB, it isn't running away from anything fast once PT detects other ships aiming at it, plus you can usually see the incoming shots anyway from distance to try and avoid them turning

 

For me that 1 point would better spent on either EL or PM with a BB

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When you do something you do it to the max, or you don''t do it as it will be half-baked and not efficient :

 

https://worldofwarships.com/en/content/captains-skills/?skills=3,8,9,21,26,28,33&ship=Battleship

 

Or if - 3 % fire chance actually is compensated by 10 % higher rof ( and more when you lose health ) with IFHS :

 

https://worldofwarships.com/en/content/captains-skills/?skills=1,9,21,23,26,28,33&ship=Battleship

 

In both cases the secondary battery module also needs to be mounted. And in both cases the AA gets boosted as well.

 

  • Iinertia fuse is essentially worthless for guns at and above 203mm in calibre. The standard penetration is already above 32mm which is the thickest armour that most ships have that isn't on the belt.
  • Guns between 150 and 180mm will bring their penetration above 32mm which will allow them to damage high tier battleships with bow, stern and deck hits where before the shells would do no damage. This applies to ships like the cleveland, mogami and german 150mm (including secondaries). This will also allow you to damage cruisers like Zao and Des Moines with belt hits meaning almost every hit will be dealing damage.
  • Destroyers with 127,128 and 130mm guns can now damage cruisers (like New Orleans and Myoko) far more easily, as well as hurting lower tier (7 and below) battleships.
  • 100mm guns (on Akizuki and many IJN secondaries) and 105mm guns (some lower tier ships and german secondaries) can now deal damage to destroyers on hits to the midsection. This is a huge buff to Akizukis damage to destroyers as well as significantly boosting the ability of ships like Bismarck to shred destroyers with their secondaries.

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1 hour ago, MRGTB said:

 

1 - PM, EL (or PT as one if you want that)

2 - AR

3- BFT

4  - IFHE, AFT, MS

I use this one with PT on my Bismarck and it is surprisingly good. The IFHE gives you raw damage instead of having RNG decide if you get a fire or not which can be extinguished. 

 

One thing with Bismarck is that the trajectory of secondary shells are quite flat, so you don't want to drop below 7-8 km, cause then the majority of your shells will hit the hull and not the juicy superstructure. 

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I have experience in secondary Bismarck and I play her rather successful (in contrast to some other commentators):

2029091288_Screenshot_2019-04-25WoWSStatsNumbersEU-principat121-Playerinfoandstats.thumb.png.12c4e4cfad211bc17d7c7cbc02978482.png

 

So I guess my build (and playstyle) has a point. In the spoiler you find my 19-pt captain build:

Spoiler

shot-19_04.25_09_09.26-0352.thumb.jpg.c1eb640d506bfe0ab810ebb628646530.jpg

 

This is IMHO the best secondary build for the Bismarck. You do not need IFHE on her. You can take it, but you give up a lot of survivability, which this ship direly needed. You need the extra heal and hydro.

 

(1) PT: With a secondary build your are close up to the enemy and you need to know when DD are torp you.

(2) JOAT: Hydro and Heal are very important to survive close encounters. Every reduction in cooldown helps.

(2) AR: For the straight boost of your DPM.

(3) BFT: Faster firing secondaries and slightly better AA.

(3) SI: As said: you need the extra heal alot.

(4) Manual-Sec: Obvious (and mandatory) choice.

(4) AFT: Also obvious choice as you need the range to be effective.

 

For a succesful secondary playstyle the target priorities are very important. This relys on two major points: which ship classes to aim at at which distances. There is absolutly no sense in aiming for a BB in close range, besides for starting some random fires. Most succesful are secondaries against cruisers. Those should be target number one. They are easy to hit, you actually do damage, and they cannot easily disappear. Ofc. this general rule is topped by the apearance of a DD in range. But this should be clear and obvious to everybody.

Use your main armament and angle your ship against enemy BBs (to minimize in incoming damage) and your secondaries against CA/CL (and DD) first. French BB should be prefered over other BBs, when you have to aim your secondaries on a BB. Best range for secondaries are about 7-11km, as then the shots plunge on the deck and can penetrate the superstructure. If you are too close you will hit the main armor belt and it is possible that you inflict no damage.

 

 

If you have questions or if I forget something, please ask.

 

 

edit:

IFHE will buff your 105mm gun penetration from 17mm to 23mm and your 150mm from 37mm to 49mm. Your bread and butter are your 150mm guns. The smaller are only good for starting fires. And that is enough. If you pick IFHE you only really boost your 105mm guns (they now can penetrate 19mm DD armour), but you nerf the fire chance on both of your secondaries. Picking IFHE will also allow your 150mm to penetrate the main deck of the toptier US-BBs (38mm).

But you should never forget: Secondaries are exactly that: secondaries! Your main damage will still come from your main guns. And the longer you survive the more often you can use your main guns. Though, while IFHE will buff your secondaries a little bit, the drawbacks of a smaller fire chance and the lack of survivability are not worth the trade.

 

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8 hours ago, Beastofwar said:

When you do something you do it to the max, or you don''t do it as it will be half-baked and not efficient :

 

https://worldofwarships.com/en/content/captains-skills/?skills=3,8,9,21,26,28,33&ship=Battleship

 

Or if - 3 % fire chance actually is compensated by 10 % higher rof ( and more when you lose health ) with IFHS :

 

https://worldofwarships.com/en/content/captains-skills/?skills=1,9,21,23,26,28,33&ship=Battleship

 

In both cases the secondary battery module also needs to be mounted. And in both cases the AA gets boosted as well.

 

  • Iinertia fuse is essentially worthless for guns at and above 203mm in calibre. The standard penetration is already above 32mm which is the thickest armour that most ships have that isn't on the belt.
  • Guns between 150 and 180mm will bring their penetration above 32mm which will allow them to damage high tier battleships with bow, stern and deck hits where before the shells would do no damage. This applies to ships like the cleveland, mogami and german 150mm (including secondaries). This will also allow you to damage cruisers like Zao and Des Moines with belt hits meaning almost every hit will be dealing damage.
  • Destroyers with 127,128 and 130mm guns can now damage cruisers (like New Orleans and Myoko) far more easily, as well as hurting lower tier (7 and below) battleships.
  • 100mm guns (on Akizuki and many IJN secondaries) and 105mm guns (some lower tier ships and german secondaries) can now deal damage to destroyers on hits to the midsection. This is a huge buff to Akizukis damage to destroyers as well as significantly boosting the ability of ships like Bismarck to shred destroyers with their secondaries.

- Then why is IFHE Henri IV used in CB so often? IFHE is used to cross common thresholds of armour (19mm, 25mm, 27mm, 32mm and 50mm), not just on 6 inch guns.

- German 150mm guns already have IFHE "baked in", and don't need it to pen 32mm. IJN 100mm guns also already have IFHE, giving them the same base pen as a 6 inch gun.

- IFHE is unnecessary on low tier 4 inch gun wielding ships because the 19mm armour it is used to pen doesn't appear on DDs until tier 8 (and the Z-39).

 

 

 

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Secondary build is meme most of the time, unless captain gets to see fair share of Narai in Scharnhorst.

 

IFHE on German 105 with exception of FdG is next to useless, as HE pen goes from 17mm to 21mm, so only hightier DDs and BB superstructure opens up at expense of their not bad firestarting capabilities, while 15cm are main source of damage, IFHE or not due to 1/4 HE pen.

 

For randoms I've set up Bis with usual concealment/tank build and Aiming Systems Mod1 for main gun accuracy. After all, you use main guns every battle unlike secondaries... unless you yolo hard and consistently every battle:Smile_smile: Once I was done with Bis grind and after I've obtained Scharn, I've respecced captain into secondaries (AFT+Man.Sec) to have blast and a half in Narai. Bismarck kept main gun upgrade though.

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PT, AR, BoS, AFT, ManSec, SI, EM (alternatively JoAT).

 

PT: This skill I use on almost every ship. CV is the sole ship where I don't find this useful. PM on Bismarck has only one single purpose, which is keeping turrets alive, as the rudder and machinery only can get knocked out by eating torps or AP bombs. At which point, use damecon. If you can get persistently bombed, you are in a bad situation already. If you really need PM, replace EM with PM and extra fighter.

 

AR: Turret traverse is great. AR is best 2 point skill.

 

BoS: Best survivability skill for aggressive play. SI kicks in the moment you use up 4 repair parties. BoS kicks in the moment you let the first DoT run its course.

 

AFT & ManSec: The two most important secondary skills.

 

SI: Doubling up on the survivability, this time giving late-game sustain.

 

EM: basically just extra turret traverse. If turret traverse is already fine enough for you, JoAT reduces CD on consumables or go PM + extra fighter, for reasons mentioned above.

 

Why not BFT: Most dpm on paper is on the 105s that don't even pen same tier DD hulls. 10% more dpm even on the 15 cm guns alone is not worth 3 points over another repair party or god forbid, sacrificing BoS. Also, no, BFT is not going to save your ship when the bombers are coming for you. Either the enemy CV is incompetent enough to lose most aircraft to flak and not get a good drop or you eat damage regardless. 

 

Why not DE: Yes, it gives pretty ok fire setting chances on the secondaries. But not worth sacrificing your survivability for either. As someone said it helps your main guns, if you are firing HE in a Bismarck, always ask yourself: Is there really no better target that I could fire AP at? And if yes, would there be if I had positioned myself better? Also, if its a DD, fire chance is pretty pointless.

 

Why not IFHE: 150s already pen BBs. 105s (unlike on FdG one tier higher) only start penning lower tier cruisers and high tier DDs. DDs that are at the edge of your range take too few shots to matter, 4 points to maybe kill a rushing DD is not worth it. Learn to steer your ship so you don't get rushed and use your main guns.

 

Why not FP or CE: If you really feel like you have to, sacrifice SI and EM and put 1 point into PM or extra fighter. I so far never found the concealment a huge issue and with CVs around, I really don't feel like they are helping any CE meta.

 

Lastly, no, secondary spec does not count as a strong AA spec. If you wanted AA, you'd need +2 explosion module and Manual AA. And even then Bismarck will be the priority target for most CVs, because its torp belt is bad, the short range of 10.5 cm AA makes it easier to get strikes in and anything with AP bombs usually knows that German BBs are basically a reliable target for these smewhat situational bombs. I'd really not bother with AA spec though. If you want a meaningful AA, take catapult fighter. Most consistent way of pissing CV players off.

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1 hour ago, principat121 said:

I have experience in secondary Bismarck and I play her rather successful (in contrast to some other commentators):

2029091288_Screenshot_2019-04-25WoWSStatsNumbersEU-principat121-Playerinfoandstats.thumb.png.12c4e4cfad211bc17d7c7cbc02978482.png

 

So I guess my build (and playstyle) has a point. In the spoiler you find my 19-pt captain build:

  Reveal hidden contents

shot-19_04.25_09_09.26-0352.thumb.jpg.c1eb640d506bfe0ab810ebb628646530.jpg

 

Tons of good info

 

Thank you all for the advice! After having read it all, i think i will recommend principat121:s build since its the most secondary focused build here that at the same time doesnt give up too much on other aspects, such as survivability.

 

Also, ill forward your targetting and playstyle recommendations to my friend.

 

Cheers for the help  :Smile_honoring:

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Does anyone has any idea if Basic Fire training ( 10 % ROF ) beats Demolition Expert ( 2 % more fire chance ) in damage when it comes to BB secondaries ? Especially if you plan to use IFHE too ?

 

 

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3 hours ago, thiextar said:

at the same time doesnt give up too much on other aspects, such as survivability.

Unfortunately you can't have both. It's either go secondary build, or go survivability build.

 

What he listed is not really a survivability build, as Bismark is prone to fires and skills that reduce fires, or put them out faster is the survivability build really. JOAT will reload damage control party faster, but that's about the only thing in his build you could class as survivability, along with ST that will gives you more reloads. But you're still going to be burned repeatedly to death in a Bismark because there's no fire reduction skills picked

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44 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

Does anyone has any idea if Basic Fire training ( 10 % ROF ) beats Demolition Expert ( 2 % more fire chance ) in damage when it comes to BB secondaries ? Especially if you plan to use IFHE too ?

Depends what you are up against.

 

T6 DD 4 km from your ship? BFT. T10 ship at any range? Likely DE.

 

With IFHE, replace T6 DD with any tier DD and T7- cruisers, while you cry about your utterly garbage build choices when MM throws you into T10 matches against DDs you'll maybe see 10+ km away, that eat maybe 3 105 mm shells for a joke amount of damage, before they get out again or die to allies.

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I'm currently filling out this build:
https://wowsft.com/ship?index=PGSB108&modules=1222&upgrades=212110&commander=PCW001&skills=327172099&ar=100&consumables=2232&lang=en

 

I'm sharing the captain with my Tirpitz, so the Preventative Maintenance is essential for torpedo tube survivability, I'd prolly swap it for a second catapult fighter and thus better AA if the captain was being used exclusively with the Bismarck.


If Bizzy wasn't so often placed in matches with Tier10s, I'd prolly swap out Priority Target too; but as it stands she can get clobbered way too easily just trying to get into position to use the secondaries, and PT is often the difference between a yolo suicide run that does nothing, and being able to hang back and use your speed to evade enough damage for team mates to punish whoever's trying to pick you off.

Fires are probably the biggest threat to the ship in Tier 10 matches; but at ~11km secondary range DD Torps are a very close second.
So having "an extra charge of Hydro" from Superintendent I find to be less useful than having better torpedo detection range from Vigilance + Target Acquisition System 1 with the number of Hydros available as standard.

I don't find BFT to be too useful - I don't think its AA buffing is sufficient to stop CVs torching you; I don't think the extra 10% ROF would routinely be the difference between you surviving or dying an engagement, unlike Vigilance.  I think BFT's a "win harder" option for a secondary build, whereas instead you want a "turn a loss into a win" option.

When you look at the range bonus of AFT, or the massive accuracy bonus of manual fire control, it just seems like you're losing more than 25% of the value of those two choices.


Not that I'm claiming to be a good Bismarck player (my early noobish Tirpitz play is downright poor, and although I'm 59% in my incomplete bizzy, that's only over the course of 17 games (all within the current meta, FWIW), but I'm certainly interested in what the people here think.

 

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No EM needed on the germans. Also, PT on a BB with which you want to get close is not very useful, everyone will target you. 

Get double fighter, you will need it and in case getting close is too difficult for you, get CE.as the 3rd 4 points skill. 

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16 minutes ago, Ace42X said:

I don't find BFT to be too useful - I don't think its AA buffing is sufficient to stop CVs torching you

You are talking about Tirps though. Bismark has better stock AA than Tirps ( so can benefit more than Tirps from BFT to boost AA) - Tirps gets the torps that Bismark lacks, so it has worse AA of the two.

 

And yes. PM skill on Tirps for 1 point is much more needed than it is on Bismark, to help stop the torps possibly being knocked out in close up brawls. PM on Tirps for 1 point is a (first choice 1 pointer) must have skill really

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1 hour ago, Beastofwar said:

Does anyone has any idea if Basic Fire training ( 10 % ROF ) beats Demolition Expert ( 2 % more fire chance ) in damage when it comes to BB secondaries ? Especially if you plan to use IFHE too ?

 

Too dependent on fire RNG and secondary accuracy RNG to give a straight answer. But you could calculate potential damage and no-fire chance to have an idea.

But mostly (like mentioned before) it depends on the target; against soft targets BFT is better, against tough targets DE.

If you want a single build it's down to personal preference; I prefer BFT because I feel like fire RNG hates me.

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I think fire chance on Bismark is around 34%, which would drop to about 32% if you took IFHE skill without also taking DE. So you don't need EL for 1 point if you do that, not like you'll be using HE hardly in that case on Bismark with main guns having a low fire chance of 32% and with no fire chance bonus like RN BB's get to make up for it like on Vanguard for example (which also has 34% fire chance).

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10 minutes ago, MRGTB said:

I think fire chance on Bismark is around 34%, which would drop to about 32% if you took IFHE skill without also taking DE. So you don't need EL for 1 point if you do that, not like you'll be using HE hardly in that case on Bismark with main guns having a low fire chance of 32% and with no fire chance bonus like RN BB's get to make up for it like on Vanguard for example (which also has 34% fire chance).

A better question would be why are you even considering shooting HE from the Bismarcks main guns..

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4 minutes ago, lafeel said:

A better question would be why are you even considering shooting HE from the Bismarcks main guns

I don't, as the Bismark AP pen is pretty good, while the HE sucks on fire chance. But at T10 when AP isn't able to pen some BB ships, I guess HE is going to be used at times.

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2 minutes ago, MRGTB said:

I don't, as the Bismark AP pen is pretty good, while the HE sucks on fire chance. But at T10 when AP isn't able to pen some BB ships, I guess HE is going to be used at times.

It's not just the fire chance that sucks, the damage is low as well (same as with all German HE). I'd just keep shooting ap and learn to adjust where you aim at instead.

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13 minutes ago, lafeel said:

It's not just the fire chance that sucks, the damage is low as well (same as with all German HE). I'd just keep shooting ap and learn to adjust where you aim at instead.

It actually is the absolutely atrocious damage that breaks them. Consider for example the IJN 41 cm guns, which have lower fire chance, yet are better for HE firing, because of the improved IJN HE damage. Nukes careless DDs every time. Only Monarch beats Amagi/Kii at T8 in HE dpm and gets beaten in alpha per salvo.

 

Meanwhile, noone cares if fire chance is 30%, 32%, 34% or 35% (which is Monarch). The difference between 30% and 35% is 1 more fire for every 20 shells statistically, likely around 40 shells if you count high tier base fire resistance. At least noone who has an idea about how to properly interpret these stats.

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