Maybe escort destroyers are an answer to DD players complaints regarding CV rework?

[HussarKaz]

DD players send massive complaints regarding CV rework.

 

I see the simple solution to this problem - WG may introduce escort destroyers - specific kind of destroyers with strong artillery, AA but weak torpedo armanent. They could be equipped with Defensive AA Fire consumable and smoke lasting a little bit longer than regular. They should have great concealment values due to their small size. Their main role would be to support their allies and provide air defense.

Their role would be to co-operate with DDs at recon and help other ships repel air raids.

 

The most known examples of this kind of destroyers were the British https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunt-class_destroyer s. Tiny and manueverable, they were armed with much AA guns and they had little or even no torpedo tubes. The newer escort destroyers had dual-purpose main guns.

 

Please find below a Hunt-III class destroyer HMS Catterick scheme

 

The other known example of escort destroyer was the ORP Piorun, a ship known mostly by her artillery duel with Bismarck:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ORP_Piorun_(G65)

 

 

As you can see, the main difference between Piorun and other N-class destroyers (like Gadjah Mada) is that one of her torpedo launchers was replaced by AA guns.

Due to the above, Piorun had increased air defense abilities, but she had only 5x1 torpedo tubes (GM has 5x2).

I see Piorun as a nice propsal for Tier 7 premium ship. Her specification is very close to Haida.

 

If the ship is successful - the more escort destroyers could be introduced.

 

By the way, Polish destroyers during WW2 were mostly escort destroyers or were rebulit into air defense ships - it is possible to introduce the entire line of AA destroyers:

Tier 3 - ORP Krakowiak, a tiny (just 1000 tons) Hunt-II class destroyer. Strong guns, nice AA, no torpedoes, extraordinary maneuverability will make the gameplay of this DD quite unique. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ORP_Kujawiak_(L72)

 

Tier 4 - ORP Wicher, a Wicher-class destroyer. Wicher-class destroyers were a deep modification of French Bourrasque-class, ordered by Polish Navy in the middle of 20s. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ORP_Wicher_(1928)

 

Tier 5 - ORP Burza (hull B would be her reconstruction made by 1942, her armanent was vastly chagned to make her an escort destroyer, one of two 3x torpedo launchers was removed, the AA was improved by adding 4x40 mm pom-pom) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ORP_Burza

 

Tier 6 - ORP Garland, a G-class escort destroyer operated by Polish Navy in WW2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Garland_(H37)#ORP_Garland,_1940–1946

 

Tier 7 - ORP Grom (hull B would be a reconstruction of Grom-class destroyer ORP Błyskawica made by 1941, her armanent was chagned to make her more effective in an escort destroyer role, one of two 3x torpedo launchers was removed, the AA was improved by adding 4x40 mm pom-pom and the maximum speed was increased to 42 knots) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grom-class_destroyer

 

Tier 8 - ORP Huragan, a deeply modified Grom-class destroyer (referred in some sources as "Improved Grom" class) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grom-class_destroyer_(1939)

 

 

(T9 and T10 had to be classic DDs but with strong AA - ORP Wicher II and ORP Warszawa). None of them were paper ships, they were all - excluding Huragan which construction was not finished due to WW2 outbreak - operational and saw combat.

 

Of course it's just a free proposition - feel free to express your opinions and present your propositions.

[fumtu]

Majority of those were actually a "Fleet Destroyers". For example OPR Piorun is N class which we had as T7 GM and which was class of "Fleet Destroyers". Escort destroyers are two weak to fight other ships and also quite often have similar or even worse AA armament the Fleet Destroyers. Some could be used as low tier premiums but majority in unsuitable for the game.

[Beastofwar]

A very good idea acceptable to everyone including WG i suppose, if they can sell premiums that way.

 

But i see 1 flaw : braindead idiots will still use them as YOLO cap rushing ships, unsupported and  on their own, not using them as intended/to escort other DD.....and then get whacked for the features these ships had to trade in for their greater AA power. Because there must always be balance.

 

And some light Cruisers or even some DD with Dual Purpose main guns can already be much like those "" AA escort DD" if you care to captain point/module specc them accordingly. Which the majority just refuses to do.

 

But maybe it is more acceptable to them to get a AA specialized DD handed to them that actually needs their accepted build to even be able to do DD things poorly.

[Panocek]

How exactly slow and undergunned destroyer escort is going to solve CV complaints I don't even.

 

Besides, most mentioned ships here are destroyers proper. That and there is only so much freeboard on such small vessel to put AA on. If good ol Montana with 20x quad Bofors can't pew pew fast enough to stop T10 CV dead in its tracks, few twin Bofors certainly aren't going to cut it either.

[Uglesett]

Escort destroyers weren't more effective against aircraft than full scale destroyers. They were just cheaper.

 

[HussarKaz]

7 minutes ago, Uglesett said:

Escort destroyers weren't more effective against aircraft than full scale destroyers. They were just cheaper.

 

Small ones, like Hunt-class - yes.

But it is obvious that for example the ORP Piorun, the N-class DD made for air defense and equipped with more AA-guns than a typical N-class like Gadjah Mada, was more effective for air defense purposes. With a Defensive AA Fire consumable she could provide a nice AA support for "standard" destroyers.

 

I think this it something that may be at least tried.

If the introduction of AA-purposed destroyers would be not enough to solve the current problem, we all may continue search for the solutions.

[Panocek]

1 minute ago, HussarKaz said:

Small ones, like Hunt-class - yes.

But it is obvious that for example the ORP Piorun, the N-class DD made for air defense and equipped with more AA-guns than a typical N-class like Gadjah Mada, was more effective for air defense purposes. With a Defensive AA Fire consumable she could provide a nice AA support for "standard" destroyers.

 

I think it it something that may be at least tried.

If the introduction of AA-purposed destroyers would be not enough to solve the current problem, we all may continue search for the solutions.

Whole "AA escort destroyer" gets defeated by mere existence of USN DDs, which often have one of the most potent AA + DFAA option. Does it stop CVs from breaching their anal integrity? No.

 

Whole CV issue boils down to automated AA, where player can't do anything besides speccing captain/ship for AA, selecting sector and hoping for the best. If you tune such automated, unavoidable dps to keep good players in check, average joe is going to be brutalized so hard it won't be even funny. Which kinda defeats whole point of popularizing class previously extinct due to such one sided mechanics (old no-fly zones, fighter strafing) where either you had unicums living and thriving or potatoes getting buttfluffed all the time.

[HussarKaz]

1 minute ago, Panocek said:

breaching their anal integrity

made my day

[ZoidFile]

The only "answer" for CVs is fixing CVs.

[ColonelPete]

We already have those in game...

• Khaba
• Le Terrible
• Kiev
• Tashkent
• ....

[Uglesett]

9 minutes ago, HussarKaz said:

Small ones, like Hunt-class - yes.

But it is obvious that for example the ORP Piorun, the N-class DD made for air defense and equipped with more AA-guns than a typical N-class like Gadjah Mada, was more effective for air defense purposes. With a Defensive AA Fire consumable she could provide a nice AA support for "standard" destroyers.

How is this different from existing destroyers with strong AA? We already have a wide variety of AA levels between different destroyers. Some like the higher tier US and KM DDs are quite deadly to planes. Others like the IJN torp line are not.

 

But the fact that the Kidd exists doesn't help a random Kagero player. You can't be sure there's a mix of strong and weak AA DDs on your team. And if there is, they're not guaranteed to spawn close enough to actually be within support range of each other. The only way to ensure that is to division up.

[fumtu]

24 minutes ago, HussarKaz said:

But it is obvious that for example the ORP Piorun, the N-class DD made for air defense and equipped with more AA-guns than a typical N-class like Gadjah Mada, was more effective for air defense purposes. With a Defensive AA Fire consumable she could provide a nice AA support for "standard" destroyers.

 

In fact Piorun would be bad as AA destroyer as its main guns were not DP.

[HussarKaz]

3 minutes ago, fumtu said:

 

In fact Piorun would be bad as AA destroyer as its main guns were not DP.

She had a bigger M-class friend ORP Orkan with DP guns, but I'm believed she is more suitable for Tier 8. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ORP_Orkan_(G90)

 

[Panocek]

5 minutes ago, HussarKaz said:

She had a bigger M-class friend ORP Orkan with DP guns, but I'm believed she is more suitable for Tier 8. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ORP_Orkan_(G90)

 

Which we almost have in game in shape of Lightning, as L and M class are sister classes. And that boat is far from effective AA platform. 3 average DP turrets and single (!) mid caliber PomPom. Even replacing one torp launcher with seemingly manually loaded 76 102mm PewPewKanone of sorts doesn't help anything besides gimping anti surface effectiveness.

[CptBarney]

Frigates or corvettes could be used along side gunships.

 

i wouldn't mind a dedicated AA line for DD's.

[fumtu]

Just now, HussarKaz said:

She had a bigger M-class friend ORP Orkan with DP guns, but I'm believed she is more suitable for Tier 8.

 

 

We already have this ship in the Game as Lighting in RN line. You can compare its AA with AA of let say Benson as see that its AA is nothing to brag about. Sorry but none of those ships, with exception of Blyska, has particularly good AA. And Orkan is also a Fleet Destroyers.  

[ColonelPete]

Just now, CptBarney said:

i wouldn't mind a dedicated AA line for DD's.

Which would be pretty weak.

Especially when CV can just ignore them.

[fumtu]

12 minutes ago, CptBarney said:

Frigates or corvettes could be used along side gunships.

 

i wouldn't mind a dedicated AA line for DD's.

 

All ships still needs to be capable to fight other surface ships. Frigates and corvettes are not as their usually carried very light weapons and were quite slow and small. We already have DDs dedicated for AA in the form of IJN gunboats but WG refused to give them DFAA.

 

There are several good options for premium destroyers which could be good in that role, like Blyska with 4x2 4inch, L class with 4x2 4inch, Canadian Tribals with 4x2 4inch or premium Akizuki class destroyer. Also Allen M Sumner with addition quad Bofors mount instead of aft torpedo launcher. But single nation line with good AA capabilities? Maybe Swedish if ever added to the game.

[Skurfa]

We need...... wait for it..... waaaait for it......... SUBMARINES!

 

More specificalle the german FLAK U-boot!

 

Just sitting there underwater, and when a squadron passes overhead, you emerge and rip all his aircraft out of the sky!

 

That’s what they did in real life, almost crushed Coastal Command.

 

(A bit of irony have been added)

[HussarKaz]

9 minutes ago, fumtu said:

 

All ships still needs to be capable to fight other surface ships. Frigates and corvettes are not as their usually carried very light weapons and were quite slow and small. We already have DDs dedicated for AA in the form of IJN gunboats but WG refused to give them DFAA.

 

There are several good options for premium destroyers which could be good in that role, like Blyska with 4x2 4inch, L class with 4x2 4inch, Canadian Tribals with 4x2 4inch or premium Akizuki class destroyer. Also Allen M Sumner with addition quad Bofors mount instead of aft torpedo launcher. But single nation line with good AA capabilities? Maybe Swedish if ever added to the game.

WG claims that every new line should have some special capabilities to make gameplay of every line at least a little bit different. Like a DD line specialised in air defence. May be Swedish if their ships were more suitable.

[CptBarney]

13 minutes ago, fumtu said:

 

All ships still needs to be capable to fight other surface ships. Frigates and corvettes are not as their usually carried very light weapons and were quite slow and small. We already have DDs dedicated for AA in the form of IJN gunboats but WG refused to give them DFAA.

 

There are several good options for premium destroyers which could be good in that role, like Blyska with 4x2 4inch, L class with 4x2 4inch, Canadian Tribals with 4x2 4inch or premium Akizuki class destroyer. Also Allen M Sumner with addition quad Bofors mount instead of aft torpedo launcher. But single nation line with good AA capabilities? Maybe Swedish if ever added to the game.

 

Ahh i just realised how smoll frigates are, most don't even have proper guns, just a lot of machine guns or autocannons or both.

 

Oh well thats my idea shelved.

[159Hunter]

They already exist, Grozovoi to name one, or Kidd. They can shred planes if CV doesn't pay attention.

The problem is not that CVs can hurt destroyers, the problem is that they nullify the role a DD played before the rework.

[Randschwimmer]

I wonder how exciting it would be playing a DD only to give AA support? 

How many credits and EP do you get for this brave fighting?

[Panocek]

7 minutes ago, 159Hunter said:

They already exist, Grozovoi to name one, or Kidd. They can shred planes if CV doesn't pay attention.

The problem is not that CVs can hurt destroyers, the problem is that they nullify the role a DD played before the rework.

RTS carriers could nullify DDs just fine before... If anything people got used to lack of carriers in games

[Beastofwar]

45 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

Which would be pretty weak.

Especially when CV can just ignore them.

 

The point of OP being they should ESCORT other DD, not be invulnerable to CV ships that can operate alone. Probably would need the other DD to survive DD vs DD encouters as well, but still are usefull acting as a pair to (stealth ) torpedo larger ships.

 

The point of AA cruisers is exactly that too......escort/screen other ships from air attacks thus supporting them . Not be "invulnerable" cruisers that can ignore air attack while whacking other ships.

 

Unintended use and failed tactics what to do with them are at the basis of many complaints. But granted if the majority of the player base does that, it becomes a WG problem.