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thiextar

Possible cv spotting idea

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spotting is one of the biggest issues with the current CV implementation, and I was just thinking a bit and had an idea:

 

Make spotting range by air on all ships equal to or less than their aa range, this way carriers can't spot everything for their team without paying for it. 

 

but at the same time, nothing changes in their striking power, as long as they know roughly where the ship is, they can strike it same as before, they just can't keep it spotted for their team without taking losses. 

 

Another side effect would be that ships that are alone, but unspotted might be harder for carriers to kill, as the carrier would have to guess what their initial attack angle should be. 

 

Just had this idea and thought I would share it and see what you guys think about it, I think it really could solve both the spotting issues and to some extent, the blob meta. 

 

 

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1 minute ago, thiextar said:

spotting is one of the biggest issues with the current CV implementation, and I was just thinking a bit and had an idea:

 

Make spotting range by air on all ships equal to or less than their aa range, this way carriers can't spot everything for their team without paying for it. 

 

but at the same time, nothing changes in their striking power, as long as they know roughly where the ship is, they can strike it same as before, they just can't keep it spotted for their team without taking losses. 

 

Another side effect would be that ships that are alone, but unspotted might be harder for carriers to kill, as the carrier would have to guess what their initial attack angle should be. 

 

Just had this idea and thought I would share it and see what you guys think about it, I think it really could solve both the spotting issues and to some extent, the blob meta. 

 

 

Some ships could spot and shoot planes before planes could see them, WG nerfed it a couple if hot-fixes ago, so planes will see ships just beforehand re AA hits them.

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1 minute ago, thiextar said:

spotting is one of the biggest issues with the current CV implementation, and I was just thinking a bit and had an idea:

 

Make spotting range by air on all ships equal to or less than their aa range, this way carriers can't spot everything for their team without paying for it. 

 

but at the same time, nothing changes in their striking power, as long as they know roughly where the ship is, they can strike it same as before, they just can't keep it spotted for their team without taking losses. 

 

Another side effect would be that ships that are alone, but unspotted might be harder for carriers to kill, as the carrier would have to guess what their initial attack angle should be. 

 

Just had this idea and thought I would share it and see what you guys think about it, I think it really could solve both the spotting issues and to some extent, the blob meta. 

 

 

 

It can be done much easier. make planes have two speeds:

1. attack speed - this means they fly low, but they can spot - also they are vulnerable to AA;

2. cruise speed - means they fly higher and faster, but they can''t spot - not vulnerable to AA.

 

The 'attack speed' should be much less than the general speed now. 

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Just now, Cyclops_ said:

Some ships could spot and shoot planes before planes could see them, WG nerfed it a couple if hot-fixes ago, so planes will see ships just beforehand re AA hits them.

Yes I know that, but maybe that was a mistake? Maybe that is exactly what makes them to independent and therefore too influencial on the battle? 

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5 minutes ago, thiextar said:

Yes I know that, but maybe that was a mistake? Maybe that is exactly what makes them to independent and therefore too influencial on the battle? 

Ehh... that actually means a CV has planes flying around, then they just die to something he's not seeing,

and after that the message appears"you have just been shot by Mino", oh wait... that message will not appear... :Smile_teethhappy:


Ah man that's just cruel. 

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9 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

 

It can be done much easier. make planes have two speeds:

1. attack speed - this means they fly low, but they can spot - also they are vulnerable to AA;

2. cruise speed - means they fly higher and faster, but they can''t spot - not vulnerable to AA.

 

The 'attack speed' should be much less than the general speed now. 

Perhaps this is the wrong way round.

High Level - Slow - Can spot and keep ships spotted - can't attack ships, but can set up an attack - vulnerable to fighters but not AA

Low Level - Fast - can attack selected target but can't pass any spotting information to team except about selected target as their entire concentration is on the target.

This way if a CV wants to get to a part of the map fast, they are not passing any spotting information but are vulnerable to attack.

If they want to spot, then they are not going anywhere fast and there is a counter - fighters.

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I recently thought about planes having a cone-like spotting below and infront of them. That would certainly remove the amount of spotting CVs can do. But you probably would need to nerf AA detectabiltity at the same time aswell.

Blobbing up would make it easier to spot for a CV. And if a CV is barely flying into your AA detecability, you could stay hidden by trying to maneuver outside of his spotting field.

 

In the end, that would require a lot of work to get it right tho (atleast i think so), which means WG would never go for it anyway. :cap_old:

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1 hour ago, thiextar said:

spotting is one of the biggest issues with the current CV implementation, and I was just thinking a bit and had an idea:

 

Make spotting range by air on all ships equal to or less than their aa range, this way carriers can't spot everything for their team without paying for it. 

 

but at the same time, nothing changes in their striking power, as long as they know roughly where the ship is, they can strike it same as before, they just can't keep it spotted for their team without taking losses. 

 

Another side effect would be that ships that are alone, but unspotted might be harder for carriers to kill, as the carrier would have to guess what their initial attack angle should be. 

 

Just had this idea and thought I would share it and see what you guys think about it, I think it really could solve both the spotting issues and to some extent, the blob meta. 

 

 

Genius. I'd friggin love to find myself like 3.5 km away from a Mino that turns its AA on. Right inside that 4 km area of insta death by 14 explosions and way over 1k dps. There's a reason they nerfed the aerial spotting of some ships, after they reduced it for everyone. 

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4 minutes ago, Cagliostro_chan said:

Genius. I'd friggin love to find myself like 3.5 km away from a Mino that turns its AA on. Right inside that 4 km area of insta death by 14 explosions and way over 1k dps. There's a reason they nerfed the aerial spotting of some ships, after they reduced it for everyone. 

Mino spotting range would be equal to its maximum aa range, so he wouldnt be able to bait you in. 

 

Anyways, the entire point of such a change would be to make carriers dependent on team spotting, so the point is that you shouldn't be able to both scout and kill targets completely by yourself, not easily anyways. 

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1 hour ago, Cambera_1 said:

Perhaps this is the wrong way round.

High Level - Slow - Can spot and keep ships spotted - can't attack ships, but can set up an attack - vulnerable to fighters but not AA

Low Level - Fast - can attack selected target but can't pass any spotting information to team except about selected target as their entire concentration is on the target.

This way if a CV wants to get to a part of the map fast, they are not passing any spotting information but are vulnerable to attack.

If they want to spot, then they are not going anywhere fast and there is a counter - fighters.

Yes except when they attack, they want to spot, or else they are blind while attacking.

Main thing I think we agree on, there has to be a way to stop/punish planes spotting everything, when just on their way to target.

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1 hour ago, thiextar said:

spotting is one of the biggest issues with the current CV implementation, and I was just thinking a bit and had an idea:

 

Make spotting range by air on all ships equal to or less than their aa range, this way carriers can't spot everything for their team without paying for it. 

 

but at the same time, nothing changes in their striking power, as long as they know roughly where the ship is, they can strike it same as before, they just can't keep it spotted for their team without taking losses. 

 

Another side effect would be that ships that are alone, but unspotted might be harder for carriers to kill, as the carrier would have to guess what their initial attack angle should be. 

 

Just had this idea and thought I would share it and see what you guys think about it, I think it really could solve both the spotting issues and to some extent, the blob meta. 

 

 

 

All your ideas may not be flawed per definition, but you must account for that CV must be able to get the same DPM as other classes.

 

If you hamper CV a great deal - what you seem to desire - you pay for in other ways as CV DPM may not suffer and has to be maintained somehow. So no ship will be spared because of your idea's in any way, whatever way.

 

For example WG does what you say and nearly blind aircraft, but increase aircraft armour and HP and make aircraft weapons 2 x as powerful to compensate for lost oppertunities striking, achieving the same DPM.

 

You would have gained nothing as you suffer just the same damage, but now in frighting hard hitting damage peaks ( torpedo squadrons being able to devastating stike achievement you....) instead of in little needle stings.

 

 

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7 minutes ago, thiextar said:

Mino spotting range would be equal to its maximum aa range, so he wouldnt be able to bait you in. 

 

Anyways, the entire point of such a change would be to make carriers dependent on team spotting, so the point is that you shouldn't be able to both scout and kill targets completely by yourself, not easily anyways. 

Mino aerial spotting range currently is around max AA range. If you half the aerial spotting range, a Mino can just turn its AA off and bait you in.

 

And barring that you just outright kill CV play by making any AA cruiser an absolute death trap, look at how DDs are flourishing again with their new insanely low aerial detection. Oh wait... they still die.

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As long rival cv-s dont interact with eachother nothing will be better. Current fighter consumable is a joke and catches planes only if cv player alt-tabbed to have fun on net. reducing fighter aggro time might make it more difficult to fly around at will.

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1 minute ago, Cagliostro_chan said:

Mino aerial spotting range currently is around max AA range. If you half the aerial spotting range, a Mino can just turn its AA off and bait you in.

 

And barring that you just outright kill CV play by making any AA cruiser an absolute death trap, look at how DDs are flourishing again with their new insanely low aerial detection. Oh wait... they still die.

No one is saying anything about halfing anything, make spotting range exactly the same as aa range, which means the CV can't keep the minotaur spotted for free, but it can spot it for the duration of an attack run. 

 

Anyhow, the entire point of this change is to make carriers attack targets that their team is already spotting, in those circumstances, nothing has changed. 

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4 minutes ago, thiextar said:

Anyhow, the entire point of this change is to make carriers attack targets that their team is already spotting, in those circumstances, nothing has changed. 

Have u played this game lately? If 2 teams sit both at different sides of biggest island on map then cv can go F himself? Or if cv needs to lose planes to spot targets for himself then why should anyone play cv at all? Its like DD has to show himself to torp someone.

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Literally would be another ridiculous buff to BBs that this game certainly doesn't need.

A lot of cruisers already have AA equal or close to their air spotting range.

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1 minute ago, thiextar said:

No one is saying anything about halfing anything, make spotting range exactly the same as aa range, which means the CV can't keep the minotaur spotted for free, but it can spot it for the duration of an attack run. 

Stealth IJN can actually spot Mino, Worcester, Seattle and Nep for free already now and would still be able to then. In this case, exactly nothing changed, except that Moskva and Stalingrad would be added to the list, as they are currently spotted way before AA engages, but would under your proposed change be spotted from 6.6, which is enough for keeping them spotted.

 

Overall, your proposal will not change much as:

  • DDs already have way lower spotting distance than AA range. They still die, highlighting why this change is not going to solve much.
  • CLs are spotted usually from AA range. Nothing changes there apparantly.
  • CAs would join the CLs. Matters not too much.
  • BBs and CVs get massive aerial detection buffs. Because clearly, they deserve buffs.

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8 minutes ago, Cagliostro_chan said:

Stealth IJN

What's the maximum concealment on those?

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13 minutes ago, Cagliostro_chan said:

Stealth IJN can actually spot Mino, Worcester, Seattle and Nep for free already now and would still be able to then. In this case, exactly nothing changed, except that Moskva and Stalingrad would be added to the list, as they are currently spotted way before AA engages, but would under your proposed change be spotted from 6.6, which is enough for keeping them spotted.

 

Overall, your proposal will not change much as:

  • DDs already have way lower spotting distance than AA range. They still die, highlighting why this change is not going to solve much.
  • CLs are spotted usually from AA range. Nothing changes there apparantly.
  • CAs would join the CLs. Matters not too much.
  • BBs and CVs get massive aerial detection buffs. Because clearly, they deserve buffs.

The interaction and role of the carrier as a whole would change away from spotting. 

 

Being able to easily spot entire teams is a problem when you can swap flanks as many times as you want in a game, while all other ships are mostly limited with only being able to change flanks once per game. 

 

If you want to balance CV's and keep their current spotting intact, you would have to take away all their damage, because their spotting and map presence is sooo powerful in winning games. 

 

If you want to keep damage intact in CV's, then spotting has to change. 

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35 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Yes except when they attack, they want to spot, or else they are blind while attacking.

My suggestion is that they can't while attacking pass spotting information to the rest of the team except for their target. They are concentrating on that.

Of course they would see their target and be able to attack it!

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4 minutes ago, Cambera_1 said:

My suggestion is that they can't while attacking pass spotting information to the rest of the team except for their target. They are concentrating on that.

Of course they would see their target and be able to attack it!

That would be good, but they need to see the other ships around them as well. 

Ma7ybe it is better if they can only spot 'below certain height and speed'. 

Current attack speed is also kinda way too fast. 

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14 minutes ago, Cagliostro_chan said:

DDs already have way lower spotting distance than AA range.

Not all - try a Jervis, Icarus & Aigle all have an AA range of less than their Air Spotting Distance

Cossack air spotting distance = AA range

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4 minutes ago, B0Tato said:

What's the maximum concealment on those?

6.2 I think.

2 minutes ago, thiextar said:

The interaction and role of the carrier as a whole would change away from spotting. 

Are you serious? 0.8.0 hit months ago and basically made it your main role to damage farm, not to spot. Spotting is a byproduct.

5 minutes ago, thiextar said:

Being able to easily spot entire teams is a problem when you can swap flanks as many times as you want in a game, while all other ships are mostly limited with only being able to change flanks once per game. 

I can spot part of the team, depending on where I am as a CV. I can't spot entire teams at once. And your proposal mostly prevents CVs from spotting BBs and other CVs.

7 minutes ago, thiextar said:

If you want to balance CV's and keep their current spotting intact, you would have to take away all their damage, because their spotting and map presence is sooo powerful in winning games. 

 

If you want to keep damage intact in CV's, then spotting has to change. 

Spotting changes for the classes that are least bothered by getting spotted. Classes that play heavily around concealment and rely on it to survive are unaffected by your proposal. I think something's wrong with that.

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2 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Current attack speed is also kinda way too fast. 

Attack speeds need to be fast to deal with AA.

 

3 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

they need to see the other ships around them as well

But my idea is that they wouldn't have time to pass that information to anybody else. They can see - but can't pass that information on.

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11 minutes ago, thiextar said:

The interaction and role of the carrier as a whole would change away from spotting. 

 

You honestly believe that?

I can think of several ways to cheese this already.

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