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Butterdoll

DDing with Hipper

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Well, one more co-op game without dds, so I was forced to be the dd in my little tiny flank, it turned out to be a fun game.

As it turns out, as it predecessor in this game, Hipper makes a good dd only lacking smoke. I often called yorck my personal dd.

I don't know why I can't do the same with a freaking dd.

 

20190417_225013_PGSC108-Hipper_16_OC_bees_to_honey.wowsreplay

 

This is just a sample but since Yorck I'm doing this sometimes, and I've been surprised how well it can , make the dd role., either one.

 

which lead me to another thing.

 

I'm still levelling out my t8 ships from stock. (I left the grind, I'm in leisure mode)

Chappy, CM, Hipper, and I like all of them, very capable ships if we don't take into account the MM. But...

 

Overall they are getting bigger and clumsier and slower,  just in the other day I was comparing hipper with my bbs and all of them, Bayern, Gneisenau , even Bismarck have faster rudders than hipper that had a whopping 15 s rudder and it's so slow but such a thing I notice since Nurnberg, a ship that I like very much.

Adding a couple of knots more would be perfect.

All my ships are equipped with the rudder module but the t8 ones, they are equipped with acceleration module.

I don't know where this will lead me, I really don't know.

 

t8 ships could be a lot better if they were more agile and faster, after all one of the strong suits of that class.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Butterdoll said:

As it turns out, as it predecessor in this game, Hipper makes a good dd only lacking smoke. I often called yorck my personal dd.

I'm not sure what exactly you think the role of DD is, but it must be something strange, given Hipper and Yorck are not replacements for DDs.

2 hours ago, Butterdoll said:

Overall they are getting bigger and clumsier and slower,  just in the other day I was comparing hipper with my bbs and all of them, Bayern, Gneisenau , even Bismarck have faster rudders than hipper that had a whopping 15 s rudder and it's so slow but such a thing I notice since Nurnberg, a ship that I like very much.

Adding a couple of knots more would be perfect.

All my ships are equipped with the rudder module but the t8 ones, they are equipped with acceleration module.

I don't know where this will lead me, I really don't know.

 

t8 ships could be a lot better if they were more agile and faster, after all one of the strong suits of that class.

Did you ever consider that them being a lot clumsier has something to do with you deciding to compare a Hipper with propulsion mod and stock hull to top hull BBs and top hull steering gears mod T6 cruisers?

 

Overall, what is the point of this thread? I don't see it.

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Are we talking about Coop or Random? Against bots you can do almost anything...

 

Some cruisers with very good concealment (US, UK) can do DD work if there are no real DD left. Hipper and Chappy do not belong to this kind of cruisers. Both are quite big ships, being even longer than some lowtier battleships, with high speed guns which hit quite reliably at higher distance. So there is rarely any need to close in with them, except for yolo torpedo rush.

 

 

p.s.: As already mentioned, rudder shift becomes much better with most hull upgrades. This is why you (almost) always upgrade hull first!

 

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Hipper is one of my best torpedo boats, in fact. Though sneaking undetected to within 6km of the target may sometimes prove to be a bit of a chore but hey. With a bit of planning and sh*itloads of sheer dumb luck it is totally doable fairly often. :cap_like:

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25 minutes ago, RAHJAILARI said:

Hipper is one of my best torpedo boats, in fact. Though sneaking undetected to within 6km of the target may sometimes prove to be a bit of a chore but hey. With a bit of planning and sh*itloads of sheer dumb luck it is totally doable fairly often. :cap_like:

 

Must take stronk russian torpedocruiser - is best 4km range, da comrade :Smile_teethhappy:

 

8 hours ago, Butterdoll said:

All my ships are equipped with the rudder module but the t8 ones, they are equipped with acceleration module.

I dont see Hipper being a stationary island camper, so not sure why you would take acceleration module? :cap_hmm: German Cruisers are better off with Ruddershift, because they are open water Cruisers.

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9 hours ago, Butterdoll said:

Well, one more co-op game without dds, so I was forced to be the dd in my little tiny flank, it turned out to be a fun game.

As it turns out, as it predecessor in this game, Hipper makes a good dd only lacking smoke. I often called yorck my personal dd.

I don't know why I can't do the same with a freaking dd.

 

20190417_225013_PGSC108-Hipper_16_OC_bees_to_honey.wowsreplay

 

This is just a sample but since Yorck I'm doing this sometimes, and I've been surprised how well it can , make the dd role., either one.

 

which lead me to another thing.

 

I'm still levelling out my t8 ships from stock. (I left the grind, I'm in leisure mode)

Chappy, CM, Hipper, and I like all of them, very capable ships if we don't take into account the MM. But...

 

Overall they are getting bigger and clumsier and slower,  just in the other day I was comparing hipper with my bbs and all of them, Bayern, Gneisenau , even Bismarck have faster rudders than hipper that had a whopping 15 s rudder and it's so slow but such a thing I notice since Nurnberg, a ship that I like very much.

Adding a couple of knots more would be perfect.

All my ships are equipped with the rudder module but the t8 ones, they are equipped with acceleration module.

I don't know where this will lead me, I really don't know.

 

t8 ships could be a lot better if they were more agile and faster, after all one of the strong suits of that class.

 

 

 

When you think of it a well known low tier ship like the Yubari is branded a (light) cruiser, but is in fact a large Destroyer simply designed to be the lead/flag ship of smaller ships ( Destroyer flotilla leader ) which is a RL role /reason to design ships, but we do not know that distinction  in game. We often do notice it however when we expect it to be a class it isn't.

 

This grey area between large destoryers and light cruisers will be often only a matter of WG programmed concealment stats, often but not always their gun caliber and  consumables. But there is a grey area between heavy Cruisers and Battleships too, as Battlecruisers are unknown as a class and just branded Battleship confusing players expecting heavy armour and durability. Further confusing many as real battleships in later periods are just as fast as Battlecruisers were, without the reduced armour to be faster.

 

It is probably not that far out to take on a role of a not that much different class, it must be quite viable with a Light Cruiser ( especially if it has smoke too ) to take on the role of a large Destroyer. But there are Destroyers without smoke ( choice now, for new French tech tree i read no choice ) too so why not take their role with a (light) Cruiser ?

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6 hours ago, Cagliostro_chan said:

I'm not sure what exactly you think the role of DD is, but it must be something strange, given Hipper and Yorck are not replacements for DDs.

In coop?  With yolo torpedo rush as the main DD role in a coop, even Tirpitz or Kii are very stronk DDs.  :cap_haloween:

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17 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

It is probably not that far out to take on a role of a not that much different class, it must be quite viable with a Light Cruiser ( especially if it has snoke too ) to take on the role of a large Destroyer. But there are Destroyers without smoke ( choice now, for new French tech tree i read no choice ) too so why not take their role with a (light) Cruiser ?

Personally, I use any Cruiser for a DD role, if that becomes necessary. But I do find that some are better suited for that than others. Key characteristics being concealment and speed. Hipper does lack in both BUT it has a very good battery of torpedoes to make up for that AND it is durable so you can kamikaze torpedo-charge BB's on occasion. However, the Cruisers in which I routinely end up playing the proto-DD are:

 

Tier 5) Emile Bertin (speed&agility)

Tier 6) Leander / Huanghe (both are smokers)

Tier 7) Fiji / Atlanta (smoke/stealth/AA)

Tier 8) Mogami / Cleveland.(speed&stealth/AA) - And Hipper, while it has none of these except AA I will do it if I get a chance but that is more rare

 

With these ships I am confident that should the situation arise I will be able to substitute a DD with a reasonable chance of survival / escape. But of course, there are limitations and one compelling condition is that all the enemy DD's should preferably either be already dead OR on the other side of the map.:Smile_Default:

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I didn't watch the replay but German CA's with 27mm bows can reliable torp any BB with 380mm guns; Bismarck, Richelieu, Alsace, etc. 

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12 hours ago, Cagliostro_chan said:

I'm not sure what exactly you think the role of DD is, but it must be something strange, given Hipper and Yorck are not replacements for DDs.

 

Did you ever consider that them being a lot clumsier has something to do with you deciding to compare a Hipper with propulsion mod and stock hull to top hull BBs and top hull steering gears mod T6 cruisers?

 

Overall, what is the point of this thread? I don't see it.

 

You are absolutely right, especially with a slower DPM. But in games like that one  with no dds what one's gonna do?

The Graf Zeppelin helped me a lot, spotting ahead A  I was able to see what was coming my way in advance, so no nasty surprises.

I waited for the Shchors and nail it in one go. The the rest follow suit. Basically I did everything a dd would do, at least in my eyes, I ambushed them. 

 

No. Until I reached  CM, I was so surprised how slow it was making turns and more important accelerating, especially being able to do 39 knots.

I'm very used to RUCLs but once in cherry blossom, I got torped to death with my stock chappy (I did input the commands for turning but they weren't enough to make it turn) worlds apart from my Shchors I would manage to avoid those torps with it.

I went to the port thinking.

No, it's not like Shchors ( a short version of what I've been told, Chappy is like Shchors only better, I can see why but...)

But there is other things why I prefer Shchors over Chappy, the radar and torps.

I don't want to be a priority target, having a bulls eye in my back makes me nervous and for 20 seconds at a time it's not worth,  I like the freedom of the Shchors I can still hunt with RPF (the second best thing).

Chappy has fewer torps and the ships it faces have much more HP, Shchors has more stopping power in the torps.

For now Shchors, I like it better.

Hipper is equally slow, just like CM, I found it very strange why I could not make turns in time to avoid collisions (torping at close range), the all ship felt like my Bayern then I went to see why.

And yeah, my Bismarck turns faster. 

In a co-op game in the same map very similar to this replay I rushed a Mushi, I could play with transverse speed, reload times and speed, turns out i barely escaped alive from that one, first the ship was slow to exit cover, than I managed to land 12 torps on him and it was still standing.

And yes I play a lot t6.

Just sharing my thoughts.

 

10 hours ago, Oely001 said:

Are we talking about Coop or Random? Against bots you can do almost anything...

 

Some cruisers with very good concealment (US, UK) can do DD work if there are no real DD left. Hipper and Chappy do not belong to this kind of cruisers. Both are quite big ships, being even longer than some lowtier battleships, with high speed guns which hit quite reliably at higher distance. So there is rarely any need to close in with them, except for yolo torpedo rush. 

 

 

p.s.: As already mentioned, rudder shift becomes much better with most hull upgrades. This is why you (almost) always upgrade hull first!

 

 

Not quite.

 

For support at caps, hydro, suppression fire or the lack of dds, in this replay was me a cv and a bb I have 11.20km concealment in hipper, so in this case I was the most dd alike of the three. It was my turn to flip the caps.

 

 

9 hours ago, DFens_666 said:

 

Must take stronk russian torpedocruiser - is best 4km range, da comrade :Smile_teethhappy:

 

I dont see Hipper being a stationary island camper, so not sure why you would take acceleration module? :cap_hmm: German Cruisers are better off with Ruddershift, because they are open water Cruisers.

 

Da.

But sometimes living the capitalist dream feels good ...(and I'm going to the gulag, now)  :Smile_hiding:

 

True, but they are very capable doing ambushes as long you don't mess up, if you miss it's all Kaput. No margin for error.

 

8 hours ago, DariusJacek said:

In coop?  With yolo torpedo rush as the main DD role in a coop, even Tirpitz or Kii are very stronk DDs.  :cap_haloween:

 

I prefer doing other things with my BBs.

I often go full speed strait to the caps (co-op) with them, the goal is running major support for dds, once there my focus is not the aim, is rudder and engine, my torpedo alarm don't stop.

When all goes well, it's a treat.

Operations helps too. Especially Defence of Newport.

6 hours ago, LemonadeWarrior said:

I didn't watch the replay but German CA's with 27mm bows can reliable torp any BB with 380mm guns; Bismarck, Richelieu, Alsace, etc. 

 

I didn't bow on ,in fact in a certain point I was broadsiding the hipper bot waiting for the rechie that came soon after Monarch and I had to switch sides.

8 hours ago, RAHJAILARI said:

Personally, I use any Cruiser for a DD role, if that becomes necessary. But I do find that some are better suited for that than others. Key characteristics being concealment and speed. Hipper does lack in both BUT it has a very good battery of torpedoes to make up for that AND it is durable so you can kamikaze torpedo-charge BB's on occasion. However, the Cruisers in which I routinely end up playing the proto-DD are:

 

Tier 5) Emile Bertin (speed&agility)

Tier 6) Leander / Huanghe (both are smokers)

Tier 7) Fiji / Atlanta (smoke/stealth/AA)

Tier 8) Mogami / Cleveland.(speed&stealth/AA) - And Hipper, while it has none of these except AA I will do it if I get a chance but that is more rare

 

With these ships I am confident that should the situation arise I will be able to substitute a DD with a reasonable chance of survival / escape. But of course, there are limitations and one compelling condition is that all the enemy DD's should preferably either be already dead OR on the other side of the map.:Smile_Default:

 

you are forgetting at least two.

 

Kuma and Tenryo

 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Butterdoll said:

you are forgetting at least two

Kuma and Tenryo

Tenriu, yes I forgot that... Kuma not so much forgot, as trying not to mention it. It does have the speed but has relatively poor concealment and no survivability to make up for it. So I usually still avoid becoming the scout, if at all possible. However, that said, it does happen often enough and she does not always do all that bad in that role when it comes to it. Come to think of it, her smaller cousin Yubar, which I also forgot abouti IS excellently suited for a DD role tho.:cap_like:

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1 minute ago, Butterdoll said:

 

You are absolutely right, especially with a slower DPM. But in games like that one  with no dds what one's gonna do?

The Graf Zeppelin helped me a lot, spotting ahead A  I was able to see what was coming my way in advance, so no nasty surprises.

I waited for the Shchors and nail it in one go. The the rest follow suit. Basically I did everything a dd would do, at least in my eyes, I ambushed them. 

 

No. Until I reached  CM, I was so surprised how slow it was making turns and more important accelerating, especially being able to do 39 knots.

I'm very used to RUCLs but once in cherry blossom, I got torped to death with my stock chappy (I did input the commands for turning but they weren't enough to make it turn) worlds apart from my Shchors I would manage to avoid those torps with it.

I went to the port thinking.

No, it's not like Shchors ( a short version of what I've been told, Chappy is like Shchors only better, I can see why but...)

But there is other things why I prefer Shchors over Chappy, the radar and torps.

I don't want to be a priority target, having a bulls eye in my back makes me nervous and for 20 seconds at a time it's not worth,  I like the freedom of the Shchors I can still hunt with RPF (the second best thing).

Chappy has fewer torps and the ships it faces have much more HP, Shchors has more stopping power in the torps.

For now Shchors, I like it better.

Hipper is equally slow, just like CM, I found it very strange why I could not make turns in time to avoid collisions (torping at close range), the all ship felt like my Bayern then I went to see why.

And yeah, my Bismarck turns faster. 

In a co-op game in the same map very similar to this replay I rushed a Mushi, I could play with transverse speed, reload times and speed, turns out i barely escaped alive from that one, first the ship was slow to exit cover, than I managed to land 12 torps on him and it was still standing.

And yes I play a lot t6.

Just sharing my thoughts.

Could you, ffs, stop arguing ships are more sluggish at T8 when basically 90% of that is because you are using goddamn stock ships with propulsion mod, comparing them to lower tier top hull ships with steering gears mod? Your comparison is pretty much worthless because the way you set your ships up for comparison just cannot be taken serious.

 

Also, you have no idea what the role of DDs is, is what I get from your post.

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2 minutes ago, Cagliostro_chan said:

Could you, ffs, stop arguing ships are more sluggish at T8 when basically 90% of that is because you are using goddamn stock ships with propulsion mod, comparing them to lower tier top hull ships with steering gears mod? Your comparison is pretty much worthless because the way you set your ships up for comparison just cannot be taken serious.

 

Also, you have no idea what the role of DDs is, is what I get from your post.

Bismarck a low tier ship?

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2 minutes ago, Butterdoll said:

Bismarck a low tier ship?

Even stock with no modifications Hipper has 15 s rudder shift, Bismarck top hull is 16 s. So, no, Bismarck is not more maneuverable than Hipper. If you actually set up your Hipper properly with top hull and rudder module like any person with a working brain, the Hipper gets 7.4 s.

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7 minutes ago, RAHJAILARI said:

Tenriu, yes I forgot that... Kuma not so much forgot, as trying not to mention it. It does have the speed but has relatively poor concealment and no survivability to make up for it. So I usually still avoid becoming th scout, if at all possible. Thought that said, it does happen often enough and she does not do half bad in that role when it comes to it. Come to think of it, her smaller cousin Yubar, which I also forgot abouti IS excellently suited for a DD role tho.:cap_like:

I love Kuma, so far the only ship that I didn't feel the need of an upgrade.

it's fast and agile, but tenryo is better, more agile than kuma, the guns in the other hand...

I like Tenryo and Kuma was an Tenryo with better guns.

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4 minutes ago, Cagliostro_chan said:

Even stock with no modifications Hipper has 15 s rudder shift, Bismarck top hull is 16 s. So, no, Bismarck is not more maneuverable than Hipper. If you actually set up your Hipper properly with top hull and rudder module like any person with a working brain, the Hipper gets 7.4 s.

sorry but it is.

 

what you said but 15 seconds vs 12.8 seconds

 

I will try with other configurations I do miss those 7.4 s

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ARE YOU GUYS SERIOUSLY DISCUSSING SHIP ROLES IN COOP???  :cap_haloween::cap_fainting:

The only role of every ship is to get as fast as possible to the position where one can farm maximum damage in the shortest time before his competition (the rest of the team) will do the same and will kill all bots.  What means usually yolo full speed ahead, or you will be late to the party, with the highest level of sophisticated tactic one can try to implement is to get oneself on the close range flank behind an island to torp/citadel broadsides.  

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46 minutes ago, DariusJacek said:

ARE YOU GUYS SERIOUSLY DISCUSSING SHIP ROLES IN COOP???  :cap_haloween::cap_fainting:

The only role of every ship is to get as fast as possible to the position where one can farm maximum damage in the shortest time before his competition (the rest of the team) will do the same and will kill all bots.  What means usually yolo full speed ahead, or you will be late to the party, with the highest level of sophisticated tactic one can try to implement is to get oneself on the close range flank behind an island to torp/citadel broadsides.  

I think that we aren't.

But we could.

either way, since wg changed that mode (giving more ships) it's been so much fun than before.

I just went through a couple of games in shards, all in shards, shards in a row, totally insane.

I'm really digging hipper and I'm really digging co-op.

And sincerely I'm enjoying it so much I'm in no hurry to re join random, judging by the forum is not as appealing as co-op or ops.

  

 

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8 hours ago, Butterdoll said:

I think that we aren't.

But we could.

either way, since wg changed that mode (giving more ships) it's been so much fun than before.

I just went through a couple of games in shards, all in shards, shards in a row, totally insane.

I'm really digging hipper and I'm really digging co-op.

And sincerely I'm enjoying it so much I'm in no hurry to re join random, judging by the forum is not as appealing as co-op or ops.

  

 

Do not get me wrong, it is fun, but far from any advanced tactics needed as opponents are even dumber than average 40 wr potato, just bots are with a better aim.  What you did there was exactly what I usually  do in coop. Most of the time it will get me nice damage and xp without dying too fast. Sometimes I have to ram to secure the last kill if no torps available. It is fun but it gets boring quickly as no real crafty opposition. 

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1 hour ago, DariusJacek said:

Do not get me wrong, it is fun, but far from any advanced tactics needed as opponents are even dumber than average 40 wr potato, just bots are with a better aim.  What you did there was exactly what I usually  do in coop. Most of the time it will get me nice damage and xp without dying too fast. Sometimes I have to ram to secure the last kill if no torps available. It is fun but it gets boring quickly as no real crafty opposition. 

+ 1

but... try overwhelmed by the bots instead of real crafty opposition.

 tactically is different, as you said, Kill more than your allied, kill as much as you can, leave none for your teammates.

 

I'm having fun, we know that we can't do a lot of things in random that we do in co-op.

I'm not reaching boring levels yet.

I'm finding more easy going than random, random can be very frustrating.

After 0.8, which I didn't like either as a surface ship or a cv I took refuge in ops, oh boy, sometimes can be equally frustrating.

Now I'm looking at the forum and I see everyone complaining.

Before there was plenty of dds, now the cruiser is the dd.

we need dds.

Before there were a lot of players that took refuge in co-op, why I don't see as many dds as before? I'm talking about co-op. They are safe there, have all of them gone to cvs?

I'm levelling out my t8 ships and having a great deal of fun , no frustrations.

But that will come to an end.

  

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57 minutes ago, Butterdoll said:

+ 1

but... try overwhelmed by the bots instead of real crafty opposition.

 tactically is different, as you said, Kill more than your allied, kill as much as you can, leave none for your teammates.

 

I'm having fun, we know that we can't do a lot of things in random that we do in co-op.

I'm not reaching boring levels yet.

I'm finding more easy going than random, random can be very frustrating.

After 0.8, which I didn't like either as a surface ship or a cv I took refuge in ops, oh boy, sometimes can be equally frustrating.

Now I'm looking at the forum and I see everyone complaining.

Before there was plenty of dds, now the cruiser is the dd.

we need dds.

Before there were a lot of players that took refuge in co-op, why I don't see as many dds as before? I'm talking about co-op. They are safe there, have all of them gone to cvs?

I'm levelling out my t8 ships and having a great deal of fun , no frustrations.

But that will come to an end.

  

It will. T9 and 10 are financially total crap in coop. Randoms are not much fun currently, but one can adapt and still do well in DD just it is much harder to get nice pet rework  damage numbers. One has to play with a coution in cv and especially in double cv games. 

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19 hours ago, Butterdoll said:

 

you are forgetting at least two.

 

Kuma and Tenryo

 

 

 

Big difference in concealment between these two. Tenryu is one of the few ships ingame that can make it's role as destroyer leader true, because (with clubby clubby captain) its concealment is just above its torp range of 7 km. It of course gets help from the more agressive style at those tiers.

 

Kuma meanwhile has between 10 & 11km detection, so I'd highly advice against playing any DD shenanigans with her, cause you will get spotted and anything will citadel you, not to mention your modules will get blasted everytime. She is a glorious gun platform though.

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28 minutes ago, DariusJacek said:

It will. T9 and 10 are financially total crap in coop. Randoms are not much fun currently, but one can adapt and still do well in DD just it is much harder to get nice pet rework  damage numbers. One has to play with a coution in cv and especially in double cv games. 

Speaking of which... (I'm going off-topic in my own topic).

I forgot all about that small detail. (yes I heard about it, 200 k battles and the income in the red)

Mushi it's not for me.

Missouri it's a goner.

there are two ships I've got my eyes on.

How Jean Bart? financially like.

 

10 minutes ago, Saiyko said:

Big difference in concealment between these two. Tenryu is one of the few ships ingame that can make it's role as destroyer leader true, because (with clubby clubby captain) its concealment is just above its torp range of 7 km. It of course gets help from the more agressive style at those tiers.

 

Kuma meanwhile has between 10 & 11km detection, so I'd highly advice against playing any DD shenanigans with here, cause anything will citadel you, not to mention your modules will get blasted everytime. She is a glorious gun platform though.

 

Either one is a blast but tenryo guns ...

I like Kuma so much because it has better guns, same torps and still retains a lot of speed and Agility of tenryo.

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well, I most say Hipper is a much better dd than Hatsuaru is a cruiser.

 

here, have a laugh.

 

I told before, when I'm in a dd that means something went awfully wrong with the game.

 

20190418_230219_PJSD206-Hatsuharu_41_Conquest.wowsreplay20190418_230944_PJSD206-Hatsuharu_50_Gold_harbor.wowsreplay20190418_230944_PJSD206-Hatsuharu_50_Gold_harbor.wowsreplay

 

the thing is, now in a more serious note.

this dd will eventually end up with Akizuki. I faced this dds many times and it's a formidable adversaries (yes I know about t9 and t10)

I' I will have it.

I would be very appreciated with some pointers  about gunboating dds.

 

 

 

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46 minutes ago, Butterdoll said:

well, I most say Hipper is a much better dd than Hatsuaru is a cruiser.

 

here, have a laugh.

 

I told before, when I'm in a dd that means something went awfully wrong with the game.

 

20190418_230219_PJSD206-Hatsuharu_41_Conquest.wowsreplay20190418_230944_PJSD206-Hatsuharu_50_Gold_harbor.wowsreplay20190418_230944_PJSD206-Hatsuharu_50_Gold_harbor.wowsreplay

 

the thing is, now in a more serious note.

this dd will eventually end up with Akizuki. I faced this dds many times and it's a formidable adversaries (yes I know about t9 and t10)

I' I will have it.

I would be very appreciated with some pointers  about gunboating dds.

 

 

 

Hatsuharu is a torp boat, not a gunboat. Don't try to play it like a gunboat. Don't play Shiratsuyu as a gunboat either.

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