How is concealment rated on CVs?

[Bics93]

Hi! I’m approaching CVs: playing Furios in weekly operations and I’m starting to enjoy the gameplay. 

 

Before going to try in random may I ask you what is your opinion about a concealment build on CV?

 

Let’s say I pick Implacable and pick CE and concealment mod: I’ll get around 11,5km surface spotting and ~8,5km air spotting, the idea is to bring the hull behind some island near the battle to provide more support against enemy planes (Implacable has insane AA power and 10min fighter) and to shorten the cycle time on planes.

Would be a good idea or will the downsides  be too great? What do you think?  

[Panocek]

I run maxed camo and it works on US/IJN, though on Implantable you might prefer FCM1, adding two planes in reserve and cutting replenishment a bit instead camo. That said, Impla is tied worst with Lady Lex in terms of camo, even more so with FCM1 and she's tad slower. So running away might not be as obvious should flank collapse.

[Miragetank90]

My view is this: Concealment is invaluable on any ship, and this includes CV. The hull has better concealment and it also affects the planes.

 

However, is it worth getting on all CVs? Personally I don't think so, chief reason being - you can't get the concealment on the planes themselves low enough for it to matter that much, and justify spending 4 points.

The exception to this is Japan, specifically the torp bombers, which with all buffs to conceal will get very stealthy, significantly more so than its competitors can. This is the only CV line in which I run full concealment.

 

Ultimately, it's a toss up. But, that's my view laid bare. 

[Beastofwar]

I am curious for this myself as i have always taken the +replenishment/+2 aircraft on the deck module and other skills.

 

Hiding behind an island very near the enemy lines will have the diasadvantage it is very easy for an enemy DD or cruiser to come around that island and torpedo you, while you have less free vectors to choose to escape those torpedo's. In open sea, on the move and able to change to any course torpedo's rarely hit.....parked behind some island they more probably will hit as you will be a sitting duck if someone manages to jump you...islands do offer others visual cover too....

 

The enemy has spotting CV aircraft too, so ofcourse they know you are there if you go close to the front lines. Afterall CV can find a stealthy by design DD with that concealement skill in open sea too......a CV is not a DD, so they know you are there. I have never seen a CV go "missing" and popping up somewhere you would never have expected it to be able to go......not a DD, far too large for that and conceal bonus too low for it's size to make much difference.

 

However....I could see use for enemy ships having less time to evade incoming attacks from longer concealed aircraft.....some are really good at keep on turning in such manner not all torpedo's can hit when you come in slow and/or they can see you coming for ages...

[Miragetank90]

Also, you pointed out how you wanted to ''bring the hull behind some island near the battle to provide more support against enemy planes'' through AA and fighters, and also to shorten the cycle on planes. 

 

While the extra conceal can definitely help with positioning yourself in an advantageous position and so shorten the cycling, remember that AA ranges aren't that long, you'd have to get dangerously close to the fight(and be spotted) to contribute to flak. And, if you're behind an island you won't be able to help in that regard anyway, barring fighter drops. 

[Bics93]

13 ore fa, Miragetank90 ha scritto:

The exception to this is Japa

 

Do you skip “sight stabilization” for CE then? Do you feel the loss of that skill? 

I’ve read on reddit that the 5% benefit may be not worth 4 points... 

 

@El2aZeR would you kindly tell me what do you think about my initial question?

I decided to tag you because I saw you have great knowledge about CVs 

[El2aZeR]

5 minutes ago, Bics93 said:

@El2aZeR would you kindly tell me what do you think about my initial question?

I decided to tag you because I saw you have great knowledge about CVs 

 

Depends on the CV tbh in terms of usefulness. Generally speaking only IJN CVs really benefit from it as their TBs can reach topkek 6.1km concealment if you go full stealth.

 

On any other CV it's more of a personal preference more than anything else. Personally I don't use it on any CV but Enterprise (and even on her I'm contemplating of spec'ing out of it) as I am already familiar with pretty much every safespot on every map so I can get by without it.

 

I don't really think you want to forgo FCM1 on RN CVs as they have abysmal reserves, but I'm not too experienced with them.

[Yedwy]

I wouldnt bother with CE on RN either, i dont remember the name of skills but - plane restoration buff then torp acceleration - damage reduction - sight stabilisation - demolition expert - hp buff - speed buff (t2 skill) and engine boost duration buff is what i plan for audatios (@18pt now)

[Miragetank90]

32 minutes ago, Bics93 said:

 

Do you skip “sight stabilization” for CE then? Do you feel the loss of that skill? 

I’ve read on reddit that the 5% benefit may be not worth 4 points... 

 

 

I don't skip it, I take both, though I have to sacrifice Improved Engine Boost, which I would otherwise normally take. 

My IJN CV build:

 

 

I don't know whether this skill itself is good enough to be worth 4 points, but I still find it useful to buff the aiming of the planes, even if its not by that much, and it can help in a clutch situation, especially for dive bombers(+10% bonus). I never skip it. 

[Beastofwar]

Never understood how you can hit anything without torpedo acceleration because most aerial torpedo''s are gruesomely slow and you can't stay in position like a DD and wait for a reload if they miss...... That is a skill i consider to be "mandatory" as it gives less time for rudder shift effects.

 

Especially some French BB have notorious fast rudder shift time which they might even have increased with a module....you have very little chance to hit if you have no torp acceleration. Some German battlecruisers with rudder shift module - i chatted with one that kept evading all my torps, he admitted he had a module - are hard to hit as well...even with torp acceleration.

 

But i only play T8 CV tops...i have no experience with long range torpedoing. That requires not taking that skill i guess.

[Yedwy]

IJN torps are way faster then the rest though

[Prospect_b]

1 hour ago, Yedwy said:

I wouldnt bother with CE on RN either, i dont remember the name of skills but - plane restoration buff then torp acceleration - damage reduction - sight stabilisation - demolition expert - hp buff - speed buff (t2 skill) and engine boost duration buff is what i plan for audatios (@18pt now)

Except Sight stabilization has nothing to offer on Brit CVs - so why not take CE instead.

 

And I'm still uncertain if the skill is worth it on IJN.

[Bics93]

52 minuti fa, El2aZeR ha scritto:

I don't really think you want to forgo FCM1 on RN CVs as they have abysmal reserves, but I'm not too experienced with them.

 

Maybe it will be more wise sticking with FCM1 until I have a good knowledge of the class: when I’ll start to lose less planes due to inexperience I may start experimenting with builds  

 

34 minuti fa, Beastofwar ha scritto:

Never understood how you can hit anything without torpedo acceleration because most aerial torpedo''s are gruesomely slow and you can't stay in position like a DD and wait for a reload if they miss...... That is a skill i consider to be "mandatory" as it gives less time for rudder shift effects.

 

Well, none here is speaking about that skill however, I have doubts regarding sight stabilization, the 4 points one.

 

34 minuti fa, Beastofwar ha scritto:

Especially some French BB have notorious fast rudder shift

 

Slightly better than the average, still Alsace, Bourgogne and Repuplique are so long that they have almost 1km turning radius, however considering their AA power, their rudder shift is the last problem if you are trying to strike them with a CV  

 

12 minuti fa, Saiyko ha scritto:

Except Sight stabilization has nothing to offer on Brit CVs - so why not take CE instead.

 

And I'm still uncertain if the skill is worth it on IJN.

 

Why? Is it because the skill doesn’t benefit much the carpet bombers and the torpedo bombers have already fast aiming time?

[Yedwy]

I dont know i usually end up having the recticle shrunk only at the last seconds before drops so still prefer having it then not having it

[Prospect_b]

1 hour ago, Bics93 said:

Why? Is it because the skill doesn’t benefit much the carpet bombers and the torpedo bombers have already fast aiming time?

Indeed. You can get your aim with the bombers ready quite a while before effectively striking and the TBs don't need it whatsoever. So dump SS on them, total waste of 4 points.

[VC381]

1 hour ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Depends on the CV tbh in terms of usefulness. Generally speaking only IJN CVs really benefit from it as their TBs can reach topkek 6.1km concealment if you go full stealth.

 

...

 

I don't really think you want to forgo FCM1 on RN CVs as they have abysmal reserves, but I'm not too experienced with them.

 

Unless you're Kaga, IJN CV reserves don't feel too great either and the planes are really squishy. Would you forego FCM1 on e.g. Shokaku for 6.1km TB spot? It's handy sure, but so often you're spotted anyway by random ships you can't account for or the enemy CV planes.

[Miragetank90]

11 minutes ago, Saiyko said:

Indeed. You can get your aim with the bombers ready quite a while before effectively striking and the TBs don't need it whatsoever. So dump SS on them, total waste of 4 points.

 

Agreed, as far as brit CVs go thanks to their gimmicks. Its forgoable. 

 

Otherwise I still take it on everything else.

[Yedwy]

15 minutes ago, Saiyko said:

Indeed. You can get your aim with the bombers ready quite a while before effectively striking and the TBs don't need it whatsoever. So dump SS on them, total waste of 4 points.

I will try it out when next free respec hits (after clanwars predumably) you might have a point there

[Prospect_b]

Regarding SS for IJN CVs, I'm basically waiting for @El2aZeR to man up and give haku some more tries

 

I'm running CE anyway, but also the concealment module - which leaves me 2 planes short at the start, but the 6,1 km detectability of the TBs is too glorious for me. Day before yesterday I flew by a neptune unnoticed for half a minute and giggled at his pannick. (But then I of course saw none of the 2 relatively close-by tier ten masterrace specimens not shooting at him... Can't have it all).

 

That detection guarantees that all those pesky fighters will never ever be launched in time, probably prevents sectors being switched correctly, and allows for a fast route to undetection. Compensates for the +2 planes imho.

 

 

SS I really don't know. I also don't really know what to take in its place - I tried it once for a few games and took TA + AR. TA isn't really necessary imho and I don't know what results the AR gave, so yea.

I spew out a brand new yammie captain yesterday (one with bft+manAA for randoms, as opposed to yamamoto with full tank for cbs) so I don't really have the elite captain xp to change builds every day atm.

 

I wish we had some data fetishists here to give every build a few hundred games and give us some nice graphs. I know that a lot of the NA CV guys have abandonned SS on every carrier, even Midway. The only somewhat decent discussion on reddit was

which included this pic

 

Also,  my views aren't uncontested anyway. I know @Alelos at least thinks the concealment module for haku is overkill (at least compared to getting extra planes), and does notice a difference in using SS.

 

Whatever may be, it certainly is way overpriced at 4 points.

[asalonen]

2 hours ago, Beastofwar said:

Never understood how you can hit anything without torpedo acceleration because most aerial torpedo''s are gruesomely slow and you can't stay in position like a DD and wait for a reload if they miss...

Torpedo arming distance is in seconds and not meters, so with Torpedo Acceleration you have to drop farther away from the target and lead it more. Especially with IJN torpedoes it's not really helpful because they are fast enough anyway. With the slower USN and RN torpedoes the skill is more useful because it raises their speed closer to DD/CL/CC top speeds.

[El2aZeR]

15 minutes ago, Saiyko said:

Regarding SS for IJN CVs, I'm basically waiting for @El2aZeR to man up and give haku some more tries

 

Eh, nah. 

Why play a T10 when you can play a T8 that easily outperforms it in pretty much every relevant way? 

[Prospect_b]

1 hour ago, El2aZeR said:

Why play a T10 when you can play a T8 that easily outperforms it in pretty much every relevant way? 

Cause that's the easy way out. I did say "man up"

[El2aZeR]

2 minutes ago, Saiyko said:

Cause that's the easy way out. I did say "man up"

 

Meh, if I wanted a challenge I'd play this instead:

Spoiler

 

 

[Bics93]

1 ora fa, Saiyko ha scritto:

wish we had some data fetishists here to give every build a few hundred games and give us some nice graphs. I know that a lot of the NA CV guys have abandonned SS on every carrier, even Midway. The only somewhat decent discussion on reddit was

which included this pic

 

Yeah, this is the post which created my doubts regarding SS skill... 

[SR_FRIOL]

@Saiyko I think with Haku is that you can use somehow this concealment buff because you have a nice flat concealment for your airplanes. In random battles the player base is almost 50/50 reacting when they see they are spotted from airplanes. That's why i am using it. It is nice to have the advantage and have those extra few hundred meters getting Unspotted. Lets be honest, It is not for sure a way to go this skill but if i was going to use Haku in competitive for spotting purposes its a skill that you have to use (only in Haku)