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GulvkluderGuld

ADD DD COUNTERPLAY to CV

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Just now, 159Hunter said:

My guess? 

Secondary build

Fire prevention... 

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7 minutes ago, 159Hunter said:

My guess? 

Secondary build

Some day when I have the elite commander exp to burn I'll do a meme manual secondaries build for Haida :Smile_trollface: 

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6 minutes ago, who_dares_wins said:

Fire prevention... 

Another elitist comment. If all you want to play is the proven build you show no courage. 

Dare to play something else and in time you will not mock me anymore. You know why? Secondaries are excellent at dealing with DDs as CV. So as CV is bigger my DD secondaries wont miss and pwn the CV.

 

:fish_happy:

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22 minutes ago, veslingr said:

you know you have alot ov conter to CV...but you just need to know how to use them...back to LTP in new meta

Currently CV have the I WIN button as DDs are helpless against same tier CVs in any 1v1. CVs dont even lose planes dropping DDs. That is as close to an I win button (hard counter) as it gets.

 

Since you are so high in mighty, please let us uninformed peasants in on your secrets.

 

What counters to CVs does a Yugumo have? I'm really curious. 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

Currently CV have the I WIN button as DDs are helpless against same tier CVs in any 1v1. CVs dont even lose planes dropping DDs. That is as close to an I win button (hard counter) as it gets.

 

Since you are so high in mighty, please let us uninformed peasants in on your secrets.

 

What counters to CVs does a Yugumo have? I'm really curious. 

 

 

It has one very good if it is on its own. It is called smoke. Take the torp reload out and put the smoke back in.

The 2nd one is the same every ship uses, teamplay.

The 3rd is going sneaking with the AA off in the weak side of the enemy team and kill the CV.

 

Oh, and BTW, 2 CVs on me and they couldn't sink me. They just lost 49 planes.

 

WorldOfWarships_2019_04_16_20_32_33_348.jpg

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26 minutes ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

Currently CV have the I WIN button as DDs are helpless against same tier CVs in any 1v1. CVs dont even lose planes dropping DDs. That is as close to an I win button (hard counter) as it gets.

If you'll forgive some disagreement: that's patently untrue for a lot of DDs (especially US ones); I do think these discussions would be more productive if we acknowledge that - as far as CVs are concerned - not all DDs are created equal.

 

I've more or less stopped playing IJN torp boats, whereas on the other hand my current record for plane kills is 63 in Kidd (can't remember opposition - two CVs, though, at least one was only T6). I have also a record of 30 for Harekaze, which is perhaps more meaningful - I believe that was against same tier opposition at least.

 

This is, frankly, a potato playing; I'm certain that a competent player could do rather better...

 

 

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1 hour ago, valrond said:

It has one very good if it is on its own. It is called smoke. Take the torp reload out and put the smoke back in.

The 2nd one is the same every ship uses, teamplay.

The 3rd is going sneaking with the AA off in the weak side of the enemy team and kill the CV.

 

Oh, and BTW, 2 CVs on me and they couldn't sink me. They just lost 49 planes.

Yes dude, but it is Kidd (best AA-DD in the game with Sims) - and you was in game with bad playing enemy T8 CVs... Against well played T10-CVs you will make a big fart with any DD... Have dozens similar games against T6-T8 CVs (with Kidd/Sims + 19p skipper + AA build) - but this case has no relevance for this topic - it is only exception. In the reality CVs-rework completely broke the game balance (working as a system nerf for entire ship class together with also much higher abundance of radar cruisers) and supressed key roles of destroyers (spot-cap-stealth attack...). And some exceptions (USN destroyers with DFAA) only confirm this sad situation... So my uploaded battle rusults are not confirmation of a great DDs-life after rework, but example only two AA-dedicated DDs...

kidd-22.jpg

sims-40.jpg

sims-42.jpg

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46 minutes ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

Currently CV have the I WIN button as DDs are helpless against same tier CVs in any 1v1. CVs dont even lose planes dropping DDs. That is as close to an I win button (hard counter) as it gets.

 

Since you are so high in mighty, please let us uninformed peasants in on your secrets.

 

What counters to CVs does a Yugumo have? I'm really curious. 

 

 

Yes in 1 vs 1 dd have no chance. same as BBs have no chance against dd in 1vs1. 

 

Team play counters everything. It is only viable defence for DD against CV. 

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1 hour ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

Currently CV have the I WIN button as DDs are helpless against same tier CVs in any 1v1. CVs dont even lose planes dropping DDs. That is as close to an I win button (hard counter) as it gets.

 

Since you are so high in mighty, please let us uninformed peasants in on your secrets.

 

What counters to CVs does a Yugumo have? I'm really curious. 

 

 

 

Kill a CV with a DD ? Better sneak up to a parked one unseen and do not raise any alarms by lauching prematurely or at long range. If you want to succeed it has to be very close and personal, most CV players seemingly did not take points into secondaries and these won't fire untill you come as close as 4 km which should be enough for good torpedo accuracy. Those torpedo salvo(s) will have to insta-kill with almost no CV player reaction time, or squadrons will be lauched, CV starts to pick up speed  and secondaries wil be focussed/trained on you.

 

And ofcourse there is the revenge kill......even if you survive your little battle with a CV, actually  sinking it, it may have launched aircraft that may be flying around for another 3 mins. These often kill the killing DD....making it taste ashes in the mouth.

 

All in all smart DD should probably not hunt CV, and even if the CV is the last surviving ship it is dangerous to do so. But not impossible. Nothing is impossible.

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5 hours ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

Just FYI the friendly leningrad went to the other cap and got killed almost instantly. 

Meanwhile I couldnt enter the other cap because as you point out 1) i would be even more vulnerable and out of position 2) there was a CV vs CV fight with fighters over a red mutsuki going on there, so i would be spotted instantly.

The way I see it, I spotted an entire flank that even the CV ignored and even got out, while there was nothing I could add on the other flank, and the game ended before i could make it back there.

 

Gone to support the team is easy to say, but if you have to be specific - where, and when?

My entire point is there was literally nothing a yugumo could contribute with in this 2x CV match. 

Ah well, that is true. Furthermore, if a DD goes cap then he needs support as well. Else DD dies fast.

If that is not given the team doesn't deserve to win. Seems likely this is what happened.

But that still is not the fault of the CV,  it's just teams of camper numbskulls.

 

In that way, CVs work as intended. Camper teams will lose. 

 

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46 minutes ago, Verblonde said:

If my current record for plane kills is 63 in Kidd (can't remember opposition

Ffs need to pull my finger out, my record is 52 in my Nicholas.

 

Aye the IJN torp boats are brutal to play at the moment but the IJN gun boats ain't to bad.

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24 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

smart DD should probably not hunt CV, and even if the CV is the last surviving ship it is dangerous to do so. But not impossible. Nothing is impossible.

I never hunt the CV, as there normally always at the far edges of the map and that takes you away from the main battles causing a lose of firepower or spotting for the team.

 

If a CV does pop up unexpectedly Infront of me, then if I feel I've got a chance I will attack but this will give my position away to the red team who will try to defend their CV and focus me down, sometimes it's best just to spot and call in fire support as your CA/BBs just luv to sink a CV. 

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28 minutes ago, martin035 said:

Ffs need to pull my finger out, my record is 52 in my Nicholas

You'll be able to stuff my record in a similar ship - I tend to potate like few have potated before...

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Vor 9 Stunden, GulvkluderGuld sagte:

Currently CV have the I WIN button as DDs are helpless against same tier CVs in any 1v1. CVs dont even lose planes dropping DDs. That is as close to an I win button (hard counter) as it gets.

Simply not true.

Besides - CVs are only available every 2nd tier.

If you pick a CV of your choice in Tier 4 or 6 and I pick a DD in +-1 Matchmaking (due to you only got every 2nd Tier to choose) you would not only for sure lose planes 1 on 1, you would probably lose 8 to 10 out of 10 encounters 1 on 1.

 

As to random gameplay:

Tier 4 CVs are absolutely no problem to deal with. You could almost ignore them, just dodge a bit, nothing special.

Tier 6 is a bit more difficult for average DD captains might be a challenge, but no serious threat if u know what u do in a DD.

Tier 8 unicums/superunicums can be tough without adapting your play. Adapt and they are not more challenging than before rework.

Tier 10 is the same with the difference that you gotta adapt and have to be extraordinary skilled not only handling your ship but reading games, development and odds/results of your actions.

So it‘s pretty much the same like befor.

 

What most people do argumenting on the board in this matter is to project superunicum CV vs average DD encounters in high tier gameplay on all games, which is totally nonsense.

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11 hours ago, veslingr said:

Nobody will oneshot you out of detonation. But midway will kill you with 1 squad if you are on open. Same as before3would do Haku with 3 TB.

 

Tactics that worked before rework does not work now. Is DD needed? Yes. It still have 2 km detection range from planes, smoke, radar and/or deff AAA. Still you spot and cap. Still you kill other dds and still there are games without CBS. But not as free as before. You need to have fast exit strategy and only one working is AAA powerhouse near you. 

 

 

 

Good thing is CV can not spot your torps. Rn and ikn cvs don't have HE bombs and dieing to their rockets is much longer process. 

 

This rework changed DDs meta as introduction of radar back in days. 

I mainly agree with all that you wrote. Semantics, it is not one-shot, but multiple shots from the same squad. My gripe is (and I do know that nothing will be done, make no mistake - but it helps to voice my dissatisfaction :Smile-_tongue:) is that they have shifted meta which was actually quite nicely balanced before 0.8.0 to current meta just in order to introduce a low skill entry class that will bring more money. 

 

Solely because of that shift, the usefulness of DDs has been drastically reduced. Spotting role is basically gone, as on T X it takes me in Midway attack squad 40 seconds to fly from A1 to J10 (try if you don't believe). Capping, yes - but only later in the game. Flanking, only if CV(s) are bad and busy on the other side. 

 

Can I adapt, yes. Do I enjoy it -  no, not really. Does it warrant to do such a drastic change in meta to pamper 5% CV crybabies - IMHO, no. 

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9 hours ago, martin035 said:

I never hunt the CV, as there normally always at the far edges of the map and that takes you away from the main battles causing a lose of firepower or spotting for the team.

 

If a CV does pop up unexpectedly Infront of me, then if I feel I've got a chance I will attack but this will give my position away to the red team who will try to defend their CV and focus me down, sometimes it's best just to spot and call in fire support as your CA/BBs just luv to sink a CV. 

The first one is correct, the second one... dream on... :Smile_trollface:

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10 hours ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

Currently CV have the I WIN button as DDs are helpless against same tier CVs in any 1v1. CVs dont even lose planes dropping DDs. That is as close to an I win button (hard counter) as it gets.

 

Since you are so high in mighty, please let us uninformed peasants in on your secrets.

 

What counters to CVs does a Yugumo have? I'm really curious. 

 

 

Sounds lame, but the universal answer is mapawareness. At the start of the take a look at the objective and the positioning of your own team. Be patient, look for potential gaps and the cv’s will tend to loose more planes over time, so it will take more time for reinforced squads. 

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Oh well, copy-paste my standard proposal for fixing this (again)...:Smile_great:

 

For better balance -> Esp. reg. CV vs.DD play. -> Well, since strike aircraft never actually were able to give artillery accurate firing directions. So how about, we let the strike planes ONLY spot whatever they will BUT in such a way that the DD (or any other ship) spotted by them will only be visible to the CV player and to the other enemy players (unless directly spotting it themselves) only as a "shadow" on the minimap (so no direct spot / firing possible). This would also remove perma-spotting and return steath back to those ships that need it to perform (DD's mostly but also some Cruisers). Also, make it so that since the rocket plane is the best way to take down / damage DD, the rocket planes should be more vulnerable to AA and have to go closer so that DD AA can actually disrupt them and with a little (or a lot) of evasive action actually evade or survive the attack. using AA should not get a ship hard-spotted either, only using main guns against other surface ships. OR perhaps it could just extend the spotting range a bit, like 25% from normal just like fires do. This would not diminish the CV's overall striking power while somewhat limiting its overall impact and at the same time give equal chance and opportunity to both ships (CV & DD) and perhaps make the game a bit more more interesting. We can also improve on this idea by making it so that the planes able to spot ships for other ships to fire at, would have to be the actual Spotting Aircraft (wohou, finally they become useful).:Smile_Default:

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Because I suck in everything, but sometimes do well in CV's, maybe some adaptions are  required and I know I will get slated for this but the amount of times a DD and a cruiser,and half of the red fleet have got through and are then chasing me around the map, I think Cruisers should now do the capping, and DD's the sneaky CV hunting.

 

 

Now be warned, i have not had coffee yet so no need to take anything I say seriously:cap_like:

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49 minutes ago, NoobySkooby said:

Because I suck in everything, but sometimes do well in CV's, maybe some adaptions are  required and I know I will get slated for this but the amount of times a DD and a cruiser,and half of the red fleet have got through and are then chasing me around the map, I think Cruisers should now do the capping, and DD's the sneaky CV hunting.

 

Now be warned, i have not had coffee yet so no need to take anything I say seriously:cap_like:

Hehehe! :Smile_Default: Sadly you are absolutely correct. Nowadays I do most of the capping for my team(s) in an Atlanta OR occasionally, Mogami but I play it slightly less now because of its poor AA - Well, at the least until this CV rework has been well and duly settled that is.:cap_old:

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4 hours ago, Zen71_sniper said:

Solely because of that shift, the usefulness of DDs has been drastically reduced. Spotting role is basically gone, as on T X it takes me in Midway attack squad 40 seconds to fly from A1 to J10 (try if you don't believe). Capping, yes - but only later in the game. Flanking, only if CV(s) are bad and busy on the other side. 

 

Can I adapt, yes. Do I enjoy it -  no, not really. Does it warrant to do such a drastic change in meta to pamper 5% CV crybabies - IMHO, no. 

100% true

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15 hours ago, valrond said:

It has one very good if it is on its own. It is called smoke. Take the torp reload out and put the smoke back in.

The 2nd one is the same every ship uses, teamplay.

The 3rd is going sneaking with the AA off in the weak side of the enemy team and kill the CV.

 

I ran smoke in the example. You might want to check out the screenshots :Smile_child: FYI the CV simply camped above the smoke untill it ran out. Then what?

2nd was impossible because the team folded.

3rd. is what I did. Unfortunately it is a one-way ticket to port if the enemy CV has half a brain. 

 

Also I said in a Yugumo. Kidd is no Yugumo.

14 hours ago, Max_Kammerer said:

Yes dude, but it is Kidd (best AA-DD in the game with Sims) - and you was in game with bad playing enemy T8 CVs... Against well played T10-CVs you will make a big fart with any DD...

 

14 hours ago, Verblonde said:

If you'll forgive some disagreement: that's patently untrue for a lot of DDs (especially US ones); I do think these discussions would be more productive if we acknowledge that - as far as CVs are concerned - not all DDs are created equal.

Point, I have not played my Gearing and Grozo after the rework (use Minu and Worch instead). 

Still, can you stay safe from CV in Gearing or Grozo? As far as I would expect, CV will be back 30s later when DFAA is out, then you get hammered.

 

14 hours ago, veslingr said:

Yes in 1 vs 1 dd have no chance. same as BBs have no chance against dd in 1vs1. 

 

Team play counters everything. It is only viable defence for DD against CV. 

I guess all your claims amount to nothing then.

 

5 hours ago, dd__dd said:

Simply not true.

Besides - CVs are only available every 2nd tier.

If you pick a CV of your choice in Tier 4 or 6 and I pick a DD in +-1 Matchmaking (due to you only got every 2nd Tier to choose) you would not only for sure lose planes 1 on 1, you would probably lose 8 to 10 out of 10 encounters 1 on 1.

Havnt played tier 4 CVs tbh, and those are in protected MM anyway so let's leave them out of it.

That said.

Good luck winning that 1v1 when I use planes to permaspot your dd all game long and strike if ever you move out of friendly air cover....That is my gripe with CVs: permaspotting without any counterplay.

 

My Tier 6 Furious have no problems what-so-ever killing DDs on its own. Rockets and for some dds, torps, work just fine. 

Tier 8 Lexington vs DDs is no contest. Dont make me laugh. 

Tier 8 Shokaku has to rely on rockets which arn't very good, but it can still permaspot with fighters + integral planes.

Tier X: Midway has the same planes as Lexi, just more of them so the DD will evaporate even faster. Haku i'm not sure since i stopped playing IJN after the torp nerfs.

 

 

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1 hour ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

Still, can you stay safe from CV in Gearing or Grozo? As far as I would expect, CV will be back 30s later when DFAA is out, then you get hammered.

Not completely, no, depending on things like what tier the CV is, and how good the player is. That's as it should be though - if someone like me was entirely immune to CVs in a DD, I would think that would be suggestive of a serious balance issue somewhere.

 

Since the rework, I've been running my Gearing with two AA modules (plus my captain includes BFT); no AFT, or Man AA - I haven't gone all-in for AA, but it does gimp me slightly for surface-to-surface. I'm also a below average player (48% WR last time I looked, although it may be worse now/soon - I've been trying to learn to cruiser/BB lately, which isn't helping!).

 

So, in that context, I find that I can stay alive quite effectively early game (provided I don't do anything especially stupid); my first contact with enemy planes can do quite a lot of damage, unless the CV driver is awake and successfully baits DefAA (or I just mess up the timing). After the initial clash, a lot depends on how the CV reacts: if the damage was a lot, he may go and try and sink easier targets for a bit, in which case my chances of doing something useful increase; alternatively, he may get cross and go all-out to sink me, in which case if he's a good CV driver, I'm dead, whilst an average CV driver will just end up feeding me planes. The crucial thing is whether I've managed to keep hard cover between me and the enemy ships; so far, I've tended to rarely be sunk by planes, but rather by the ships that see me as a result of the planes' spotting.

 

Groz is similar, although I spent several weeks without the second AA module, running the LU instead; I recently ditched the latter (I missed the torps too much), and went back to the second AA module, but haven't played it much since. Groz, of course, has the merit of a healing potion which helps survivability...

 

My feeling is that if a muppet like me has around a 50:50 chance of doing okay against a CV, then things are probably no too far adrift of where they should be. The problem, to me anyway, is that this is only the case with perhaps half to two-thirds of DDs at the moment...

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Here is another, by non-DD players overolooked aspect of the CW rework... Synergism with increased abundance of radar cruisers + last radar buff. Thanks to high presence of CVs lot of players bring to battles USN radar cruisers, which create together with CV planes much problematic environment for DDs skippers despite their abilities and skills. And please, dont answer me: adapt... :) 

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Biggest unbalance in the game is players skills... not the actual ships.  Yes a lone wolf DD will get picked off, and in some cases this is better.... remember the games that you have 1 DD and that DD wants to sail around the out side of the map to cap there base :Smile_facepalm:  or That shimma that wants to torp at max range.

 

 

 

 

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