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GulvkluderGuld

ADD DD COUNTERPLAY to CV

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By counter play do you mean "immunity" through skill? ☆

Or do you want BB AA on your DD? ♡

Not even BB AA will save you! ☆

 

How about WG gives all DDs mino AA! ☆♡☆

 

This should be enough "counterplay" ♡☆♡

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9 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

And 3k for the rest of the match is nothing. Even in games without any CV my DD usually lose more than 60% of their health. When I lose less, I consider myself lucky.

I agree, this is my DD experience too. But why do you think this is ok and balanced?

Sitting in appropriate aa cover and taking repeated 3k strikes from CV is NOT okay in my book.

CVs that dont even lose anything (planes) doing damage is in my book is a symptom of very very broken balance.

 

3+ ships same tier in a group should shoot down all planes before they can even drop, especially if one is a dedicated AA ship.

Otherwise what does AA even matter? Or put another way, who wants to be the mouse in a game of cat and mouse?

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1 hour ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

CV apologist arguments about how DDs can adapt is pure BS strawman arguments as demonstrated in the 2 last examples (provided the CV is not an idiot).
 

 

CV apologists will tell you to remain near a cruiser of battleship at match start.....if you ever decide to do that, you will notice you will not come under air attack, and if you come under air attack  these aircraft will be shot down.

 

There is no reason for you to rush foreward unsupported when there are CV in the match....what are you doing there with CV in the game ? These CV do all the early match spotting, and do it faster an better then you can in a DD. And more important for you : they are also on a search& destroy mission and usually attack any DD they find. Why should they find you while doing something useless being near defenceless without support ??

 

So you say you were rushing to a cap.....no need to be in there right after match start either. Any ship can take  a cap when local supriority is won ( read : you can enter it under protection of supporting ships ) the only thing nessesary is the enemy not taking it. But with CV's in the game no enemy DD will do that unspotted either...and shot at by all ships in gun range....

 

So when you don't want to be killed, don't be alone and away from more powerful AA. Because what you are doing now is "I want to rambo anything alone, give me an AA mini-cruiser" and that is not how the game works. In fact all classes, including CV , that solo alone away from others are killed....

 

If you are hellbent on still rushing a cap with CV in the game, then ask an AA cruiser to come with you and do not go to far away from it. You can do this without WG changing anything.

 

 

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Vor 4 Minuten, GulvkluderGuld sagte:

I agree, this is my DD experience too. But why do you think this is ok and balanced?

Sitting in appropriate aa cover and taking repeated 3k strikes from CV is NOT okay in my book.

CVs that dont even lose anything (planes) doing damage is in my book is a symptom of very very broken balance.

 

3+ ships same tier in a group should shoot down all planes before they can even drop, especially if one is a dedicated AA ship.

Otherwise what does AA even matter? Or put another way, who wants to be the mouse in a game of cat and mouse?

No matter how you put it, to give you what you want WG needs to remove CVs.

If they do as you suggest might aswell delete CV class because you will not strike anything besides braindead lone BBs.

 

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7 minutes ago, Bear_Necessities said:

While on one hand I can do this in a CV, in the opening minutes, whilst it's trying to hug an AA cruiser for it's life. Yes, I think it's broken also, I'm a DD main myself, and I like to think a very good one.

 

 

You also over extended way to far in a DD with none existent AA. You practically begged to be first priority. If I was the CV I would look at you and go "Food, easy food" and it would be in a large part your fault for putting yourself in that position. CV's are not going anywhere. I've said this across multiple threads multiple times. Whine whine whine will not get you anywhere fast. Learn the new meta. If every DD player actually did that and still the CV's massively pounded the ever loving :etc_swear: out of them, then you give WG no chance to defend that position that it's working ok.

 

In a DD you now have NO room for error in a CV game. It now requires full on attention and skill. Unlike a CV where you can eat mashed potato whilst dropping a DD for 7k with DB's. So, either learn and get to a level where you have the skill to at least survive, or try a new line. I can't make WG do anything. You can't make WG do anything. If you can't accept that, no matter how many forum threads get started, it won't be to any effect. 

Glad to see someone playing both sides of the matchup agree here.

Also I have learned the new meta, but unfortunately I have no more lines to grind. IJN torp boats are one of the last. 

 

Sure in that game I didnt play according to meta, but honestly nothing would have changed if I did, except i wouldnt have gotten a counterkill.

The team was just that obviously bad. I play CVs too and in the post I didnt defend the overextention in any way.

 

As to DD play, the CV rework has made most of them irrelevant. The dedicated gunboats can still be relevant by virtue of smoke+HE spam (russians, harugumo). 

Finally I will continue to start threads on relevant topics, even if WG doesn't care.

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1 minute ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

Finally I will continue to start threads on relevant topics, even if WG doesn't care.

And I wish you good luck with that.

 

I suppose I have CW for CV free DD play. I will make WG listen by messing the meta so much they HAVE to look into it. Though they have also stated changes are incoming to CV's and their power levels. 

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8 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

CV apologists will tell you to remain near a cruiser of battleship at match start.....if you ever decide to do that, you will notice you will not come under air attack, and if you come under air attack  these aircraft will be shot down.

 

There is no reason for you to rush foreward unsupported when there are CV in the match....what are you doing there with CV in the game ? These CV do all the early match spotting, and do it faster an better then you can in a DD. And more important for you : they are also on a search& destroy mission and usually attack any DD they find. Why should they find you while doing something useless ??

 

So you say you were rushing to a cap.....no need to be in there right after match start either. Any ship can take  a cap when local supriority is won, the only thing nessesary is the enemy not taking it. But with CV's in the game no enemy DD will do that unspotted either...and shot at by all ships in gun range....

 

So when you don't want to be killed, don't be alone and away from more powerful AA. Because what you are doing now is "I want to rambo anything alone, give me an AA mini-cruiser" and that is not how the game works. In fact all classes, including CV , that solo alone away from others are killed....

Coming across might uninformed and condescending there...in just the right tone of CV apologist. Well done sir! :Smile_honoring:

 

Argument 1: Did you see situation 2 where i sit next to 2 friendly ships and get bombed anyway, with impunity? conlusion: sitting near AA ships confers no protection

argument 2: Has been discussed to death, team was braindead, calculated risk.

arguement 3: was very carefully NOT rushing a cap, watch the replay or read the thread :fish_sleep:

argument 4: see 2. 

20 minutes ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

By counter play do you mean "immunity" through skill? ☆

Giving CVs a some active counter like RTS fighters would do the trick, matter of fact.

Barring the obvious smart solution which WG discarded, giving DDs Mino AA would do. Ofc then BBs would need at least quadrouple Mino AA levels to be satisfied :Smile_trollface:

 

14 minutes ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

No matter how you put it, to give you what you want WG needs to remove CVs.

If they do as you suggest might aswell delete CV class because you will not strike anything besides braindead lone BBs.

 

I dont believe quite so drastic measures are required. 

For example, giving dds DFAA for a temporary immunity period would allow the DD a window to disengage and reposition.

Another example would be nerfing the damage output of CVs instead of boosting AA. 

 

WG will probably nerf CVs in another half-year or so when the novelty has worn off.

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9 minutes ago, Bear_Necessities said:

I suppose I have CW for CV free DD play. I will make WG listen by messing the meta so much they HAVE to look into it. Though they have also stated changes are incoming to CV's and their power levels. 

 

Well i have considered spamming Lexington/Midway (once i unlock it) and thereby joining the enemy.

Alternative is switching to exclusive sealclubbing in my V25 and play enough to make a dent in the influx of new players :cap_rambo: :Smile_trollface:

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1 hour ago, ColonelPete said:

You are out of position in the first picture.

Sure, DDs position is behind BBs and certainly, he has no business spotting the flank. What a bad missplay, what was he thinking?

 

</sarcasm>

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18 minutes ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

I agree, this is my DD experience too. But why do you think this is ok and balanced?

Sitting in appropriate aa cover and taking repeated 3k strikes from CV is NOT okay in my book.

CVs that dont even lose anything (planes) doing damage is in my book is a symptom of very very broken balance.

 

3+ ships same tier in a group should shoot down all planes before they can even drop, especially if one is a dedicated AA ship.

Otherwise what does AA even matter? Or put another way, who wants to be the mouse in a game of cat and mouse?

Looks like you recieved only one strike.

And yes, the AA mechanic is setup in a way that a skilled CV player can get one strike through in that situation, but pays dearly for it.

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Just now, Zen71_sniper said:

Sure, DDs position is behind BBs and certainly, he has no business spotting the flank. What a bad missplay, what was he thinking?

 

</sarcasm>

If you think that is your only option, then you do not know much about the game.

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1 minute ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

For example, giving dds DFAA for a temporary immunity period would allow the DD a window to disengage and reposition.

My feeling is that something along these lines might be the way to explore. I think that giving all DDs monster AA would be unwise, if only because it would reduce variety in the game.

 

The US (and some Russian DDs) already get DefAA; I don't think the Germans and American-derived PA DDs really need it; you could make a case for the T8 (and above?) IJN gunboats, as it was built as an AA specialist. The crucial problem is the IJN torp boats, and they certainly need some help somewhere.

 

If we're thinking in this sort of direction, I would mention that some sort of (another) rework of DefAA might be in order? If we look at the wiki (http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Consumables#Defensive_AA_Fire) we see that it only boosts the larger AA guns; maybe tweak it such that the effect applies to all AA (although there would need to be some sort of counter-balancing buff to planes)?

 

On the subject of DefAA, am I the only one that misses the passing of the 'oddball' DefAA ships, notably Hood, and her ludicrous rockets?

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1 minute ago, ColonelPete said:

If you think that is your only option, then you do not know much about the game.

No, that is his not his only option. I am saying that a lot of tactical options relevant to DDs (such as spotting, flanking, stealth torping) have been neutered in order to please the low shill requirement of CV rework.

 

If you play high tier level, you will notice that DDs are as rare as CVs and that is because the only way to SAFELY survive is to play it as a low HP cruiser. 

 

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35 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

 

CV apologists will tell you to remain near a cruiser of battleship at match start.....if you ever decide to do that, you will notice you will not come under air attack, and if you come under air attack  these aircraft will be shot down.

 

There is no reason for you to rush foreward unsupported when there are CV in the match....what are you doing there with CV in the game ? These CV do all the early match spotting, and do it faster an better then you can in a DD. And more important for you : they are also on a search& destroy mission and usually attack any DD they find. Why should they find you while doing something useless being near defenceless without support ??

 

So you say you were rushing to a cap.....no need to be in there right after match start either. Any ship can take  a cap when local supriority is won ( read : you can enter it under protection of supporting ships ) the only thing nessesary is the enemy not taking it. But with CV's in the game no enemy DD will do that unspotted either...and shot at by all ships in gun range....

 

So when you don't want to be killed, don't be alone and away from more powerful AA. Because what you are doing now is "I want to rambo anything alone, give me an AA mini-cruiser" and that is not how the game works. In fact all classes, including CV , that solo alone away from others are killed....

 

If you are hellbent on still rushing a cap with CV in the game, then ask an AA cruiser to come with you and do not go to far away from it. You can do this without WG changing anything.

 

 

Here we go again...

 

No ship except DDs or smoke ships can cap with any real enemy opposition present and within line of fire as they will be spotted and constantly reset by enemy ships near the cap. Therefore, the only ships really capable of performing the task you described (escorting the DD into the cap) are the Neptune and the Minotaur, which can cap on their own just fine. Likewise, hanging back with the AA ships is a task far better suited to cruisers. Therefore, CVs make taking a DD pointless. You might as well take a smoke or radar cruiser, which are in most CV scenarios flat out better than DDs. A class shouldn't render another completely pointless simply by existing.

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1 minute ago, Zen71_sniper said:

 I am saying that a lot of tactical options relevant to DDs (such as spotting, flanking, stealth torping) have been neutered in order to please the low shill requirement of CV rework.

As I said....

6 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

..., then you do not know much about the game.

Spotting and Stealth torping still works.

Flanking depends on the number and skill of the CV. Against two good CV that is very dangerous, in any ship...

 

3 minutes ago, Zen71_sniper said:

If you play high tier level, you will notice that DDs are as rare as CVs...

There are still more than twotimes more DD than CV on average.

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Just now, who_dares_wins said:

Here we go again...

Suggest not feeding the troll; no-one who isn't trolling is *that* willfully blind to facts...

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Another thing you could do is use a DD with a lot of dual purpose guns and go FULL and i mean every single AA captain skill and module on it......so no usual DD concealment crap - useless for you anyway if you are killed by CV all the time - but every single AA skill and module there is. The most frightning AA cruisers use those dual purpose "DD guns" too afterall...DD just have less of them, but can put up quite some show.

 

I think some DD players actually do that, i encounter sometimes DD that can kill my ( Kaga/Graf Zeppelin ) squadron passing them on their way to another target. Quite the little mini-AA cruisers they are.

 

You know the German have used bait- AA submarines to do just that ? Blast allied aircraft out of the sky by surprise that were hunting surfaced submarines ? The idea in it self isn't that bad...as long as it works...

 

 

 

 

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Just now, ColonelPete said:

As I said....

Spotting and Stealth torping still works.

Flanking depends on the number and skill of the CV. Against two good CV that is very dangerous, in any ship...

 

There are still more than twotimes more DD than CV on average.

I never said it can not work. Look in a dictionary what neutered means before replying just for the sake of replying.   Oh wait, that is what you do regularly, no? 

 

 

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Another braindead DD player that can't adapt to the CV gameplay. I'm enjoying that there are so many noob CVs nowadays. I'm not playing much, but when I play DDs, I do it quite well now.

 

 

WorldOfWarships_2019_04_15_23_01_52_915.jpg

WorldOfWarships_2019_04_13_19_11_36_593.jpg

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Just now, Verblonde said:

Suggest not feeding the troll; no-one who isn't trolling is *that* willfully blind to facts...

The thing is, there are players who genuinely are that stupid, and perhaps I might in passing convince one of them to look at themselves. Plus it's funny seeing how he replies.

 

1 minute ago, Beastofwar said:

Another thing you could do is use a DD with a lot of dual purpose guns and go FULL and i mean every single AA captain skill and module on it......so no usual DD concealment crap - useless for you anyway if you are killed by CV all the time - but every single AA skill and module there is.

 

I think some DD players actually do that, i encounter sometimes DD that can kill my ( Kaga/Graf Zeppelin ) squadron passing them on their way to another target. Quite the little mini-AA cruisers they are.

 

You know the German have used bait-submariens to do just that ? Blast allied aircraft out of the sky that were hunting surfaced submarines ? The idea in it self isn't that bad...as long as it works...

 

 

 

 

This tactic has three issues:

1: It's useless on low AA DDs. 150% of :etc_swear: all is still next to nothing

2: On high AA DDs, any decent CV player will kill you anyway. Gearing and Grozovoi are good enough to completely shut down tier VIII CVs, and stop one wave of tier X planes using Def AA. However, the CV will just come back in 30 seconds with a fresh squadron, and then you're dead

3: If the enemy CV dies, or you get a 0 CV match, other DDs will wreck you because of your bad concealment.

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4 minutes ago, Zen71_sniper said:

I never said it can not work.

You said "neutered" and that is wrong.

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2 hours ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

Another Double CV complaint thread.  Now with some demonstrations.

But first off the mandatory frustration: Double CV games entire afternoon...This crap has to END.

 

Now to the nuts and bolts. Lots of CV apologists state that CV vs DD balance is fine. I disagree from both ends. 

Let me show from this game that DDs cannot perform their intended role in CV games. Reasons:

1) what (so-called nerfed) rocket planes can do from the recieving end

2) Friendlies provide NO protection (just LOL) and

3) that it does no good to smoke up

 

Yugumo game on Haven. First off, I waited for the mandatory rocket planes to do their sweep of the team while i hugged a friendly Neptune.

Then as the team was blobbing, I went alone because the team was blobbing and it was likely a loss anyway. AA off (obviously) untill detected. 


First CV vs DD situation: Alone vs rocket planes from Enterprise (I make no complaints about taking damage here, as i did go off alone)

shot-19_04.16_16_51.43-0928.thumb.jpg.719ad277c7037d704a0cfe22d221b2be.jpg

He did 4 attempted strikes

1. first one denied by virtue of aa off + turn in + speedboost making him overshoot. AA was turned on as he detected me and off again as he crossed 2,5 km for next strike.

2. 5k from 2nd one, despite same tricks (although i did leave aa off from here, having shot no planes down)

3. Same tactics for the last 2 strikes. He only dropped fighters after mostly missing the 3rd strike (and still mostly missed = 1,5k dmg the last)

 

End result: took 8k dmg from those so-called "useless" Rocket planes. (50% hp if not for SE)

 

Second CV vs DD situation: Grouped with friendlies (neptune + iowa) and using smoke vs DB from Enterprise.

shot-19_04.16_16_55.47-0407.thumb.jpg.5ca27475cd9712ff4aa35f86e6cfdc7d.jpg

Got spotted by first DB strike on the Nept/Iowa as i was barely inside 2,5 km from it. Even smoking up ASAP when i see him target me, another 3k (and lucky at that)

 

Third CV vs DD situation: Cv apologist argue - smoke up and the CV will go away in search of better targets.

shot-19_04.16_16_57.05-0876.thumb.jpg.bd8a171ac8e1633166c3b2ebd218c222.jpg

Uuuhm, nope. Why would they do that? (since you cant shoot the planes from smoke when they arn't spotted)


Obviously, got attacked as the smoke ended. Game ended before i could torp the Massa.

Replay uploaded for interested parties.

Critique is welcome (going off alone was a calculated risk, not using P in the rocket engagement is to not accidentally leaving it on making it easy for the CV).

 

TL; DR

 

Wellplayed CVs make it impossible for dds to fulfill their role and Something Must Be Done.

CV apologist arguments about how DDs can adapt is pure BS strawman arguments as demonstrated in the 2 last examples (provided the CV is not an idiot).

First example demonstrates how Rocket planes are if anything, still overpowered (removing fighter plane consumable would make them less-so).

 

Couple ideas

- GIVE CVs some useful AA to deny permaspotting from enemy CV (like fighters from old RTS CV)

barring that

- remove figher planes from Rocket planes or make fighter planes unable to spot DDs

- nerf rocket plane damage along with DB damage and leave spotting range intact, or reduce air spotting range of dds even further (<2 km)

- make planes visible through smoke and let DDs spot and attack the things, and most importantly, buff DD AA

20190416_164735_PJSD209-Yugumo_50_Gold_harbor.wowsreplay

pure LTP issue

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1 minute ago, ColonelPete said:

You said "neutered" and that is wrong.

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/neuter

 

Verb:

 

Make ineffective.

‘disarmament negotiations that will neuter their military power’

 

What are you arguing is that it is still possible - "if CV is not skilled", "if there is no 2 CVs". Yes, it is possible. 

 

It is also possible to go through straight in Two Brothers. Watch Flambass doing it. Is it a good idea, generally no. 

 

From my point discussion is closed - and before you accuse someone for not understanding the game, take a deep breath and resist the urge to just type something largely irrelevant. 

 

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59 minutes ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

I agree, this is my DD experience too. But why do you think this is ok and balanced?

Sitting in appropriate aa cover and taking repeated 3k strikes from CV is NOT okay in my book.

CVs that dont even lose anything (planes) doing damage is in my book is a symptom of very very broken balance.

 

3+ ships same tier in a group should shoot down all planes before they can even drop, especially if one is a dedicated AA ship.

Otherwise what does AA even matter? Or put another way, who wants to be the mouse in a game of cat and mouse?

if after strike CV did not lose all his atack squad, you play badly...you can not sit in open and just get dmg than log onto forum and cry....

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3 minutes ago, Zen71_sniper said:

It is also possible to go through straight in Two Brothers. Watch Flambass doing it. Is it a good idea, generally no.

Spotting and Stealth torping is still a good idea.

 

3 minutes ago, Zen71_sniper said:

From my point discussion is closed - and before you accuse someone for not understanding the game, take a deep breath and resist the urge to just type something largely irrelevant.

Then why are good players still doing it all the time?

 

If you still think doing DD work in a CV game is a bad idea then yes, you have no idea what you are talking about.

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