ADD DD COUNTERPLAY to CV

[GulvkluderGuld]

Another Double CV complaint thread.  Now with some demonstrations.

But first off the mandatory frustration: Double CV games entire afternoon...This crap has to END.

 

Now to the nuts and bolts. Lots of CV apologists state that CV vs DD balance is fine. I disagree from both ends. 

Let me show from this game that DDs cannot perform their intended role in CV games. Reasons:

1) what (so-called nerfed) rocket planes can do from the recieving end

2) Friendlies provide NO protection (just LOL) and

3) that it does no good to smoke up

 

Yugumo game on Haven. First off, I waited for the mandatory rocket planes to do their sweep of the team while i hugged a friendly Neptune.

Then as the team was blobbing, I went alone because the team was blobbing and it was likely a loss anyway. AA off (obviously) untill detected. 

First CV vs DD situation: Alone vs rocket planes from Enterprise (I make no complaints about taking damage here, as i did go off alone)

He did 4 attempted strikes

1. first one denied by virtue of aa off + turn in + speedboost making him overshoot. AA was turned on as he detected me and off again as he crossed 2,5 km for next strike.

2. 5k from 2nd one, despite same tricks (although i did leave aa off from here, having shot no planes down)

3. Same tactics for the last 2 strikes. He only dropped fighters after mostly missing the 3rd strike (and still mostly missed = 1,5k dmg the last)

 

End result: took 8k dmg from those so-called "useless" Rocket planes. (50% hp if not for SE)

 

Second CV vs DD situation: Grouped with friendlies (neptune + iowa) and using smoke vs DB from Enterprise.

Got spotted by first DB strike on the Nept/Iowa as i was barely inside 2,5 km from it. Even smoking up ASAP when i see him target me, another 3k (and lucky at that)

 

Third CV vs DD situation: Cv apologist argue - smoke up and the CV will go away in search of better targets.

Uuuhm, nope. Why would they do that? (since you cant shoot the planes from smoke when they arn't spotted)

Obviously, got attacked as the smoke ended. Game ended before i could torp the Massa.

Replay uploaded for interested parties.

Critique is welcome (going off alone was a calculated risk, not using P in the rocket engagement is to not accidentally leaving it on making it easy for the CV).

 

TL; DR

 

Wellplayed CVs make it impossible for dds to fulfill their role and Something Must Be Done.

CV apologist arguments about how DDs can adapt is pure BS strawman arguments as demonstrated in the 2 last examples (provided the CV is not an idiot).

First example demonstrates how Rocket planes are if anything, still overpowered (removing fighter plane consumable would make them less-so).

 

Couple ideas

- GIVE CVs some useful AA to deny permaspotting from enemy CV (like fighters from old RTS CV)

barring that

- remove figher planes from Rocket planes or make fighter planes unable to spot DDs

- nerf rocket plane damage along with DB damage and leave spotting range intact, or reduce air spotting range of dds even further (<2 km)

- make planes visible through smoke and let DDs spot and attack the things, and most importantly, buff DD AA

20190416_164735_PJSD209-Yugumo_50_Gold_harbor.wowsreplay

 

Edit: Tags removed from the title

[ColonelPete]

You are out of position in the first picture.

[Verblonde]

You're playing a Yugumo - of course you got tonked by CVs. This speaks to my only real gripe with the CVs; they've made IJN torp boats (and anything else with rubbish AA) largely useless against a half competent CV driver.

 

A lot of DDs are, I would suggest, fine (more or less) with the new CVs - we used to get our posteriors handed to us by the old CVs too; it's just that there were far fewer of them. 

7 minutes ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

Wellplayed CVs make it impossible for dds to fulfill their role

'Well played" is the crucial part of that; from what I'm seeing, a DD with adequate AA can still do its job most of the time, it just requires a few tweaks to how you play, many of which (related to spotting especially) we had to do anyway with the plethora of radar ships running around. Of course, if you encounter a unicum CV driver, you're probably dead (or at least, I am), but how does that differ from encountering a unicum in anything else?

 

My feeling is that the basic nuts and bolts of things aren't too bad at the moment (in general), but something does indeed Need To Be Done for those DDs with poor AA. Whilst I'm generally keen on historical accuracy (yeah, yeah - I know), I don't think it would destroy the game if - perhaps - the AA firepower of the 'rubbish AA' DDs was boosted somehow, and maybe for a short period. The idea being to arrange matters such that they stop being a completely 'free lunch' for CVs, whilst not being completely unrealistic AA powerhouses...

[El2aZeR]

9 minutes ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

End result: took 8k dmg from those so-called "useless" Rocket planes. (50% hp if not for SE)

 

See? Is balans.

You could have straight up died like this fellow:

22 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

  Hide contents

 

 

[beercrazy]

agree that your out of position and asking for a cv to hunt you in first pic

your team was also nearly all dead within 9 mins of the game and it was by the looks a epic loss

how much is that due to your play I cant tell but you cant sit there and blame cvs for the end of the world when enemy dds where having great fun against your team especially when your 9 mins in and a dd has 3 kills

I personally agree its time something was done about the damage to dds being high but if they nerf the damage to dds they gotta give some love back to the torps to make up for the loss in dbs and rocket plane damage and if that happens it will be bbs crying again

 

this rework is still getting tweeks now and then so maybe wg will relook at some of the damage done to some classes but hey its wg so I doubt it

[GulvkluderGuld]

10 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

See? Is balans.

You could have straight up died like this fellow:

 

Naaah. If I saw your rockets, I would smoke up immediately and just lose half my HP 

[Xevious_Red]

At work ATM but first impressions from screenshots;

 

Situation 1 - You went to the flank with no allies, a risky move when there's 2 CV.  Since you hadn't been spotted with the rest of your team it wont take a huge amount of time before one of the CV goes looking for you, and the first place they'll start is near the cap.

AA off is fine, it makes it harder to find you. However at some point you must have KNOWN you were about to be spotted, and yet you didnt smoke at all. Instead you let him do all 4 runs on you in the hope he just might not be very good. Its not a particularly good place for you to go anyway, because even if there wasnt 2 CV theres still an Indianapolis with 10km radar, and you have no support.

 

Situation 2: At this point the majority of your team are dead. The remaining members of your team are pretty much a guanteed location planes from both CV will go. Smoking up is fine, but you want to smoke before they spot you - otherwise thry just bomb your last position. Since you spot the planes at 10km you shouldnt need to wait until they actually spot you to realise they're going to fly over you.

 

Situation 3: Basically now your team are dead. They probably will wait out the smoke at this point because theres not a huge amount to go for instead.

 

Apart from you getting a torp hit on probably the mutsuki and killing him, and the monarch killing the Z-39 your team basically folded like mad, you would have been hard pushed to do much in any ship given the speed that team folded. The enemy Yugumo seems to be doing ok though with 3 kills

[GulvkluderGuld]

22 minutes ago, Verblonde said:

We used to get our posteriors handed to us by the old CVs too; it's just that there were far fewer of them. 

Except the old CVs had counterplay in the form of fighters to deny permaspotting. Also rts planes didnt travel at warp-speed which left a window to disengage and reposition.

 

 

25 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

You are out of position in the first picture.

Irrelevant to the post, please read the text

(it was a calculated risk since team was donkeys, but being not out of position did not help, as shown in pic 2 + 3)

 

 

2 minutes ago, beercrazy said:

agree that your out of position and asking for a cv to hunt you in first pic

your team was also nearly all dead within 9 mins of the game and it was by the looks a epic loss

how much is that due to your play I cant tell but you cant sit there and blame cvs for the end of the world when enemy dds where having great fun against your team especially when your 9 mins in and a dd has 3 kills

I personally agree its time something was done about the damage to dds being high but if they nerf the damage to dds they gotta give some love back to the torps to make up for the loss in dbs and rocket plane damage and if that happens it will be bbs crying again

 

this rework is still getting tweeks now and then so maybe wg will relook at some of the damage done to some classes but hey its wg so I doubt it

If we dont complain, WG will never act and may never know (they don't play their own game)

 

The game being an epic loss has no bearing on the arguments put forth in this thread. Enemy dd having 3 kills do is impressive. I guess the friendly CVs were les seffective, but I didnt watch what transpired at the other cap.

[little_rowboat]

[ColonelPete]

3 minutes ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

Irrelevant to the post, please read the text

It is relevant when you complain about CV.

It is ok to take a risk. But when you get punished, you should not complain about the consequences of your actions.

Or do you think BB should made weaker, because cruisers get punished for showing broadside?

[GulvkluderGuld]

8 minutes ago, Xevious_Red said:

Situation 1 - You went to the flank with no allies, a risky move when there's 2 CV.  Since you hadn't been spotted with the rest of your team it wont take a huge amount of time before one of the CV goes looking for you, and the first place they'll start is near the cap.

AA off is fine, it makes it harder to find you. However at some point you must have KNOWN you were about to be spotted, and yet you didnt smoke at all. Instead you let him do all 4 runs on you in the hope he just might not be very good. Its not a particularly good place for you to go anyway, because even if there wasnt 2 CV theres still an Indianapolis with 10km radar, and you have no support.

 

Situation 2: At this point the majority of your team are dead. The remaining members of your team are pretty much a guanteed location planes from both CV will go. Smoking up is fine, but you want to smoke before they spot you - otherwise thry just bomb your last position. Since you spot the planes at 10km you shouldnt need to wait until they actually spot you to realise they're going to fly over you.

 

Situation 3: Basically now your team are dead. They probably will wait out the smoke at this point because theres not a huge amount to go for instead.

 

Apart from you getting a torp hit on probably the mutsuki and killing him, and the monarch killing the Z-39 your team basically folded like mad, you would have been hard pushed to do much in any ship given the speed that team folded. The enemy Yugumo seems to be doing ok though with 3 kills

1) I let him do 4 runs yes. Could've burned smoke, but he would only be back with DBs 30s later, and I'd rather eat the Rockets than having a dessert of DBs. Might add that I only went out on a limb because at minute 2, it was obvious the team would fold, and fast. 

 

2+3 are good points, but imo only proves that DDs cannot perform their role in CV games, especially not the later parts where ships have been sunk.

[Verblonde]

6 minutes ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

Except the old CVs had counterplay in the form of fighters to deny permaspotting. Also rts planes didnt travel at warp-speed which left a window to disengage and reposition.

True, but you were reliant on allies to be competent, and we all know how often that happens (outside of a division).

 

The second part is also true, although the CV could put more than one squadron up at once with RTS, which meant the distinction is rather moot after the first couple of minutes of the game (if the CV really wants you dead).

 

I maintain that all that's really changed, effectively, for the IJN torp boats (et al.) is the frequency of the issue. Asashio is my most played ship (slightly to my surprise), but I've barely touched it since the rework; that said, I was worm food against a competent CV with RTS, it's just that it happened very rarely because far fewer people played CVs, and even fewer of them knew what they were doing...

[GulvkluderGuld]

1 minute ago, ColonelPete said:

It is relevant when you complain about CV.

It is ok to take a risk. But when you get punished, you should not complain about the consequences of your actions.

Or do you think BB should made weaker, because cruisers get punished for showing broadside?

In that case thank you for your crucial contribution to this tread.

Now did you miss this bit or do you simply choose to ignore it?

55 minutes ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

First CV vs DD situation: Alone vs rocket planes from Enterprise (I make no complaints about taking damage here, as i did go off alone)

 

[ColonelPete]

2 minutes ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

Now did you miss this bit or do you simply choose to ignore it?

You brought it up. If it did not bother you, why post it?

And if does not bother you, where is the problem with 3000 damage you got later?

[Verblonde]

4 minutes ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

2+3 are good points, but imo only proves that DDs cannot perform their role in CV games, especially not the later parts where ships have been sunk.

Not *all* DDs, I suggest - I actively like playing higher tier US DDs at the moment for example, because (against most players, anyway) they can hold their own in the teeth of opposing CVs - you just have to keep an eye on LOS to enemy ships.

 

It's certainly not a forgone conclusion either way (assuming no unicums in the equation), but if it were a dead cert, it would be dull...

[beercrazy]

4 minutes ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

Except the old CVs had counterplay in the form of fighters to deny permaspotting. Also rts planes didnt travel at warp-speed which left a window to disengage and reposition.

 

 

Irrelevant to the post, please read the text

(it was a calculated risk since team was donkeys, but being not out of position did not help, as shown in pic 2 + 3)

 

 

If we dont complain, WG will never act and may never know (they don't play their own game)

 

The game being an epic loss has no bearing on the arguments put forth in this thread. Enemy dd having 3 kills do is impressive. I guess the friendly CVs were les seffective, but I didnt watch what transpired at the other cap.

the old cv counter play was mostly down to your own cv player having a brain and also actually giving any kind of support to the team

personally I wouldn't ever go a flank when 2 cvs are on enemy team as your asking for to be targeted and spanked for making yourself a easy target

wg do very rarely listen to the player base but that's usually when a massive majority of the forum peeps start complaining and lets be honest here its mostly just dd players who whine about cvs now

the epic loss does make a difference because your chances of being attacked get higher for every ship on your side that's dead and to top that off for every player on your side that's sunk means less aa and allowing the enemy cvs to fly where they want

 

to be honest nearly ever class has a hard time if they are sailing away from the team and get spotted by any cv and just because your a dd does not mean you should be invisible or immune to cv players

I have no idea how wg can balance the the cvs at the moment but they sure as hell aint gonna make a class immune to them or remove cvs when they have just stuck em back into the store

[BLUB__BLUB]

2 minutes ago, beercrazy said:

to be honest nearly ever class has a hard time if they are sailing away from the team and get spotted by any cv and just because your a dd does not mean you should be invisible or immune to cv players

This, 100%. If I am in a CV and there is a 'wild'DD out there, I make sure I find and kill him before he kills me.

If his team folds, even more urgency to kill him, as he can cap and turn the page. 

 

He should have gone support the team at the start, IMO. 

The kind of play he does is sort of 'selfish' - yes might score big, but also high risk you get deleted.

[Verblonde]

2 minutes ago, beercrazy said:

and lets be honest here its mostly just dd players who whine about cvs now

I think you can be more specific; it's mostly just the IJN torp boat specialists who are seriously upset - to be fair, they have good reason to be too.

 

I'm a DD main (although trying to fix that a bit recently), and sub-average, so I ought to be food for CVs most of the time; as far as I can tell though, the situation is fine, provided I don't play my IJN torp boats (and a few others with poor AA), and have the sense to build the DDs that I am playing (mainly US, PA, and KM, plus a dash of Russians) with at least a bit of an eye to AA.

 

However, the IJN torp boats are basically boned - they can't defend themselves adequately against planes, and are utterly reliant on stealth, which evapourates when planes are around. It's not really surprising that people for whom that *is* DDs are cross. I personally just stopped playing them...

[159Hunter]

1 hour ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

1) what (so-called nerfed) rocket planes can do from the recieving end

2) Friendlies provide NO protection (just LOL) and

3) that it does no good to smoke up

 

Main issue for me is the constant spotting. If CVs ignore you all is good and well, the moment they take interest in you all your stealth is gone. And two CV games make this even harder.
So what you're basicly need to hope for is a CV that ignores you. If not, bad luck and have fun playing.

[GulvkluderGuld]

4 minutes ago, Verblonde said:

True, but you were reliant on allies to be competent, and we all know how often that happens (outside of a division).

 

The second part is also true, although the CV could put more than one squadron up at once with RTS, which meant the distinction is rather moot after the first couple of minutes of the game (if the CV really wants you dead).

 

I maintain that all that's really changed, effectively, for the IJN torp boats (et al.) is the frequency of the issue. Asashio is my most played ship (slightly to my surprise), but I've barely touched it since the rework; that said, I was worm food against a competent CV with RTS, it's just that it happened very rarely because far fewer people played CVs, and even fewer of them knew what they were doing...

True enough that having integral AA is better for the DDs. If a CV was competent, it could shoo an enemy spotter squadron away.

 

As to IJN boats, they never appealed to me so I only got around to grind them now, but I killed enough with my CVs back then to agree they were quite helpless.

However I maintain something as significantly changed for the AA DDs aswell.

Back in RTS, some DDs were immune even to tier X CVs (Grozvoi i particular could shoot down all TB squads of both Midway and Haku without taking damage in return). This is no longer the case.

7 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

You brought it up. If it did not bother you, why post it?

And if does not bother you, where is the problem with 3000 damage you got later?

The amount of damage and the consistency by which it can be applied bothers me, because some people argue that Rocket planes are useless. 

I brought the picture to show that rocket planes are not useless (unless you consider 8k dmg / 50% ship hp done in 30s to be useless).

The 3k then further demonstrates that positioning does not matter, which is why your first reply is irrelevant.

 

Does it not bother you that CVs can strike any ship with impunity at least 2 times despite overlapping AA from 2 other friendlies?

[GulvkluderGuld]

12 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

This, 100%. If I am in a CV and there is a 'wild'DD out there, I make sure I find and kill him before he kills me.

If his team folds, even more urgency to kill him, as he can cap and turn the page. 

 

He should have gone support the team at the start, IMO. 

The kind of play he does is sort of 'selfish' - yes might score big, but also high risk you get deleted.

Just FYI the friendly leningrad went to the other cap and got killed almost instantly. 

Meanwhile I couldnt enter the other cap because as you point out 1) i would be even more vulnerable and out of position 2) there was a CV vs CV fight with fighters over a red mutsuki going on there, so i would be spotted instantly.

The way I see it, I spotted an entire flank that even the CV ignored and even got out, while there was nothing I could add on the other flank, and the game ended before i could make it back there.

 

Gone to support the team is easy to say, but if you have to be specific - where, and when?

My entire point is there was literally nothing a yugumo could contribute with in this 2x CV match. 

[ColonelPete]

2 minutes ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

I brought the picture to show that rocket planes are not useless (unless you consider 8k dmg / 50% ship hp done in 30s to be useless).

The 3k then further demonstrates that positioning does not matter, which is why your first reply is irrelevant.

And that is what I was saying. When you are out of position, the damage by rocket planes is not suprising.

With AA support he could not have done that many approaches. Usually only two, maybe even only one attack.

 

And 3k for the rest of the match is nothing. Even in games without any CV my DD usually lose more than 60% of their health. When I lose less, I consider myself lucky.

[Verblonde]

Just now, GulvkluderGuld said:

Back in RTS, some DDs were immune even to tier X CVs (Grozvoi i particular could shoot down all TB squads of both Midway and Haku without taking damage in return). This is no longer the case.

Sadly, I'm sufficiently new to Groz that I only got to pull that stunt a few times! I miss the Kidd glory days too...

Objectively (and through gritted teeth), I suspect that it's probably not a bad thing that they were nerfed a bit in this regard. That said, they're still pretty unpleasant to deal with if built for AA; ambushing planes is still a key part of what I'm doing with Groz since the rework...

[GulvkluderGuld]

24 minutes ago, beercrazy said:

the old cv counter play was mostly down to your own cv player having a brain and also actually giving any kind of support to the team

personally I wouldn't ever go a flank when 2 cvs are on enemy team as your asking for to be targeted and spanked for making yourself a easy target

wg do very rarely listen to the player base but that's usually when a massive majority of the forum peeps start complaining and lets be honest here its mostly just dd players who whine about cvs now

the epic loss does make a difference because your chances of being attacked get higher for every ship on your side that's dead and to top that off for every player on your side that's sunk means less aa and allowing the enemy cvs to fly where they want

 

to be honest nearly ever class has a hard time if they are sailing away from the team and get spotted by any cv and just because your a dd does not mean you should be invisible or immune to cv players

I have no idea how wg can balance the the cvs at the moment but they sure as hell aint gonna make a class immune to them or remove cvs when they have just stuck em back into the store

Sure you depended on a friendly CV player. But at leas the option of counterplay WAS there.

 

Also glad someone can see rocket plane dmg to DDs is on the high side. I'd argue adding some AA to dds as was done during the RTS era would help a lot.

WG cannot balance CVS, the concept is flawed fundamentally.

They could start by leveling out the differences in AA between DDs and BB/CVs and maybe adding DFAA to all dds (and maybe make the damage amplifier beter for dedicated AA DDs)

[Bear__Necessities]

While on one hand I can do this in a CV, in the opening minutes, whilst it's trying to hug an AA cruiser for it's life. Yes, I think it's broken also, I'm a DD main myself, and I like to think a very good one.

 

 

You also over extended way to far in a DD with none existent AA. You practically begged to be first priority. If I was the CV I would look at you and go "Food, easy food" and it would be in a large part your fault for putting yourself in that position. CV's are not going anywhere. I've said this across multiple threads multiple times. Whine whine whine will not get you anywhere fast. Learn the new meta. If every DD player actually did that and still the CV's massively pounded the ever loving  out of them, then you give WG no chance to defend that position that it's working ok.

 

In a DD you now have NO room for error in a CV game. It now requires full on attention and skill. Unlike a CV where you can eat mashed potato whilst dropping a DD for 7k with DB's. So, either learn and get to a level where you have the skill to at least survive, or try a new line. I can't make WG do anything. You can't make WG do anything. If you can't accept that, no matter how many forum threads get started, it won't be to any effect.